Filing update...

[Drew78]

Hey everyone-

I tried filing some of my old safety chain (dont really care if I messed it up), which I may have. One thing I noticed is that when I compare my filing to brand new RS chain, I am not getting as much of a "point" where the top and side plates meet. I was just setting the file in the cutter, lining up my angle and pushing through. Do I have to put the file to the top plate too? It looks like I have only been sharpening the side plate? I am using a Stihl 13/64" Swiss cut file free hand. I dont really like the Stihl guide tht much yet. I cant see what I am doing when using it. I also think I was taking off WAY to much metal when I flied last night and that could be the problem too. It was good to get the feel of the file and practice making the same motion and speed.

Could anyone post some pics of thier round filing successes for comparisons sake? I wish I could, but alas I spend my money on saws, not digital cameras!

Thanks-
Drew

 

[Stumper]

If this is the first filing on your chain you may tend to catch mostly sideplate and gullet on the first couple of strokes. That is due to the way chain is ground(particularly the factory grind). Yes, you do set the file to the top plate but it is normal to use a few stokes changing the tooth geometry to accomodate the file. ( remember that the wheels used to grind it initially are flat with a rounded edge . They create a combination of radii and angles in the grinding. Square ground is another ball game but it is even more differently shaped than a round file.)

 

[Drew78]

Thanks Stumper-

So after I have taken a few strokes on the sideplate, I should take a few strokes on the top plate too?


drew

 

[glens]

In answer to your original question (the phone line was cut for a while down the street and I couldn't submit the reply) yes, you need to file the underside of the top plate as well.  You should have approx. 1/5 of the file above the top of the tooth as you file and the file should remove metal from both the top and sides of the tooth all in the same motion.  That is the main reason for the file guide -- to hold the file at the proper depth for you.

You'll not get quite as "sharp" a "point" on the RMx chain with a round file as Stihl does at the factory.  As I recall, they provide a profile which approaches square-ground in that there's almost somewhat of an inside corner present.  But maybe I'm thinking more of their RS.  RMx chain, when hand filed, will appear to be rather blunt on the outside "corner" but don't worry about that, it's the nature of the beast.  It takes much more than the usual amount of attention to initially get the tooth fully filed on Stihl chain, but once it's done it's smooth sailing from then on.

I'd like to suggest that you keep the "Hi, I'm Drew and I want to learn to file saw chain" stuff all in one thread so thoughts can remain clear as to what's been covered.

Glen

 

[Drew78]

Glen-
You are correect about keeping the entire saga of this post intact. Thought about it after I posted this morning, and have had a busy day and no time to redo it. In the future I will keep it all together.

To reply to your reply, I think I definatly had the file "to deep" in the cutter. Seeing as how I had no file above the top plate as I went along last night in the garage, that would explain why my cutters look a little bizarre. Well I might keep grinding away on that one for a few days till I feel more comfortable with the pressure and stroke, and probably going to attack it with the guide first. I have a 20" loop of RS that needs to be sharpened but I will wait a little bit longer on that one.
Thanks very much for your reply.

-Drew

 

[Weatherby]

Drew,

Remember to keep the file tilted down about 10 degrees, and push up towards the point of the tooth, this will help you hit more of the top plate, as the tooth forms to the shape of the file.

Rob

 

[jokers]

Hi Drew,

You`re getting some good advice here but there are a few things I`d like to add, especially regarding gullets.

Your chain will cut faster if you are meticulous about keeping the gullets cleaned out when everything else about the tooth and depth gauge is as it should be. In fact, if the gullet is not cleaned properly, you will reach a point as you file the tooth back where a small portion of the lower side plate leads the cutting edge of the working corner and you will not cut at all. Keeping the gullet clean is also important for chip clearance.

I would suggest searching and reading the archives here or the pages at Madsen`s or Oregon Chain`s site regarding how a chain cuts, especially in reference to the Working Corner . Once you understand the basic function and relationships of the cutter parts you will start to see vast improvement in your filing.

Gypo has posted some excellent pics of filed teeth. I have to admit that I think he has too much sideplate hook from a textbook perspective but he does produce a chain that cuts very well with reasonable staysharp in the pristinely clean wood that he normally works in. A few of his pics do give a nice perspective of how the file fits into the cutter. I have also posted a pic or two which would now be in the archives, that show what I consider proper sideplate or hook angle and what the gullets should look like as the tooth is filed back. If you consider the amount of hook in the picture of filed back chain that I posted, you will quickly see why you must go to a smaller diameter file at some point in the chain life.

Establishing the proper mating of the file to chain as Glen mentioned is not unique to Stihl chain although Stihl chain does have slightly thicker chrome to overcome.

I don`t care for the file guides that rest on top of the teeth, you can`t see what you are doing and if you have too much downangle on the file handle you end up with a receding working corner. Of course this condition is not unique to use of these guides. but it is easier to fall into this trap because of limited visability.

Keep filing and asking questions, but better yet, hit the woodpile with your various creations and see what cuts fastest and stays effectively sharp the longest. We all support you learning and are here to help when it gets frustrating.

Russ

 

[Drew78]

Thanks for the GREAT tips and advice Russ and everyone else.
I appreciate you taking time to answer my qustions so I can get all this figured out.

Respectfully-

Drew

 

[jokers]

Hey Drew, I found a pic of one of Gypo`s round filed teeth, didn`t have the patience to look any further for mine or anyone elses. Notice how the topplate is sharp all the way across.

Russ

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Here's the same cutter with less hook:

 

[Drew78]

Thanks again guys!
I picked up one of the Husky roller guides yesterday and once I figured out how it works, seems like thats gonna be the ticket. It provides a GREAT visual aid to understanding position and depth when filing. I will add the pics posted to my reference book on filing.
You are all great, thanks again.

-drew

 

[glens]

Brian, maybe you already know this and don't care, but it's easy to use the proper symbol for degree by typing in the HTML code <b>&amp;deg;</b> thus:&nbsp; <b>10&amp;deg;</b>, which will display as <b>10&deg;</b>.

I've noted the file marks traveling downwards as well in most of the images.&nbsp; Another possibility for the reason could be the result of twisting the file downward while stroking.&nbsp; Although I don't have quite the amount of self-filing history, I long ago settled on "level" too.

Glen

 

[jokers]

Hey Brian, all this time I thought you were a single finger sort of guy!

10° down angle is a debatable technique. I don`t for the most part have any issue with filing into the straps and like the idea of sharpening the whole topplate to a uniform bevel as recommended by atleast one manufacturer, but whether it gains you anything or not is not clear. The fact of the matter is that the 10° taken from the opposite perspective shows that the part of the tooth innermost in the kerf, the trailing edge of the topplate, is actually elevated from the position of the working corner(on a typical down cut) and may not even be contacting any wood that has yet to be severed. If straight across works for you then great!

The beak that Gypo and Stumper like to achieve by filing with the handle up also supports the theory that it doesn`t really matter how you hold the handle. I don`t however like the unsupported working corner you get using their preferred style. I could express a few negative opinions regarding their style but in the end, it is to each their own. I don`t think that true overall productivity is enhanced via the handle up technique. I think that perception based on the feel of the saw in the cut is skewed here.

Russ

 

[Stumper]

Very astute observations Russ. I will debate you a little- there is more to the slightly beaked cutter than an agressive feel in the cut-it actually cuts faster in clean wood. The down side is that hitting a stone or large nail in the kerf may dub every tooth by bending the beak inward and the supersharp chain suddenly won't cut for love nor money. It takes some TLC from the file to bring the chain back to cutting. -Trade-offs . Straight across filing properly done cuts very well. Most operators are so accustomed to using moderately sharp to dull chain that truly sharp chain filed in any style seems miraculous.

 

[jokers]

Hi Stumper, won`t be much of a debate since I am generally in agreement with you on this.

The fragility of what is referred to as an "unsupported working corner" when you have a beak is the basis of any negative comment I would make regarding this technique. As you have noted, beaks tend to be more easily damaged beyond workable than cutters with a larger percentage of the topplate being utilized. Beaks also can cause grabbiness and robbing of horsepower if the handle is held too high, as each tooth is slammed through unsevered fiber.

With the average woodtick I believe that averages of the many factors involved in a sharp tooth work better. For example, if you hold the handle down more than 10°, you end up with a less than perfect inner topplate angle with a resultant varying bevel but you still get a reasonable facsimile of a sharp tooth, but with the handle held too high you get only a very small part of the topplate sharp with the rest of the plate needing to be forced through on a blunt edge. I can`t prove it but I also think that you are more likely to run into chip clearance problems if the chips are being forced to turn very abrubptly against a blunt edge. I agree with your belief that most operators are amazed at how a sharp chain functions versus what they normally run, more evidence for my belief in averages.

Based on what Gypo and yourself have posted here and elsewhere, I believe that you guys are above average woodticks and better filers, so you can achieve what you understand to work with beaks. I think that filing for beaks is more like freehanding square ground for those who are less adept.

Russ

 

[Stumper]

Ah, I'm flattered Russ. Except I've just realized that I've been placed in the same category as Gypo despite the fact that there are no naked photos of me circulating in cyberspace. Maybe I should demand an apology!

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

When the cutters have a lot of hook, it feels like it's cutting fast, but in fact, it's just pulling more and cutting slower than the same set up with less hook.
In the woods when you run a saw all day, having too much hook equates to more fighting with the saw and more user fatigue.

This is also the problem with using smaller files. Small files have a sharper radius. This adds more hook to the sideplate angle, if you hold it at the same height as a larger file.

On holding the file down; the top plate is angled down at about 5 or 10 degrees, so the file should be held in line with that, otherwise you get a different angle along the underside of the topplate. Although I was able to knock a half a second off my cutting time by doing a second filing to the under side of the top plate and changing the that underside top plate angle to a sharper one.

I can't believe Brian doesn't know the HTML code for Degree!

 

[Tony Snyder]

Joker has this one nailed. Annnd, he can also spell and punctuate.