First rope failure of my career today......

[teamtree]

Tim climbed a 100' hickory tree today and free fell about 30' of the top and installed a pull rope for the spar. The tree was rotten at the bottom and we were unsure how far the rot went up the center of the tree. It wasn't a bad leaner but we wanted the rope to fall in a certain spot so we attached the rope to the chipper winch. I cut a notch in the tree and had Jeff tighten the pull rope. I started the back cut and cut up to about a 4" hinge (26" dbh tree) and then had Jeff tighten the rope and the next thing I know the rope winch snapped and the tree started swaying back and forth. It was a tense moment or two but once things settled down I just cut the tree and it dropped right where I wanted it to.

Morale of the story. Check your ropes, especially chipper winch ropes that you drag along the ground day after day. I realize I will get hammered but I realized several things that went wrong and why they went wrong. Mostly, I got in a hurry and did not realize how tight the pull rope was.

Anyway, wanted to share my eventful day with you and get bashed...lol

 

[Nailsbeats]

Oh man, tree work is intense when it goes wrong. At least nothing happened and a lesson was learned. I really don't see why you would get bashed, you've provided a cheap lesson here, thanks. Of course I've been wrong before, I used to think tree huggers and arborists were different, ohhhh, no you dint, lol.

 

[teamtree]

Well, we have had many discussions on pulling trees and spars with ropes and some think it is wrong to do so. I always contend it is fine if you do everything right....and in this case, I admitted I was in a hurry and messed up and that the result was fine but it could have been worse. But hey, everything could be worse is you look at it that way.

How many deer have you killed this year. My buddy and co-worker is up to about 10 or 12. We even had a company deer hunt two-weeks ago...the four of us took off Friday afternoon and did a little deer drive and knocked out a couple of does.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm good

 

[Nailsbeats]

I got enough to pack my freezer and I don't buy beef, lol. The statewide kill was way down overall, we are seing it here too. Like my neighbor says, "between the wolves, bear, and the Amish, it's no wonder there aint no deer." I think the population is just plain down statewide and the DNR doesn't want to admit it, cause people will stop slaughtering them and thats what they want. Oh well, a good hunter will never go hungry, but I might, lol.

Debate about pulling a tree with a rope? Say it aint so. What are they teaching these new guys?

 

[smokechase II]

OK, beat me up for the dumb question rule

There are no dumb questions.
Just dumb people that ask questions.

That would be me.

Isn't a 4 inch hinge, (assuming good wood), on a 26 inch diameter too much to start a serious pull on?

Not just from the standpoint of rope inspection/maintenance but also barber chair potential etc?

Forgive me, OK - so I will not be forgiven, but having the power of the winch could be viewed as a bad thing. Because it has the tendency to make things easy that shouldn't be attempted?

===========

I'll put the pointy cap back on and go to the stool in the corner.

 

[Jimmychips]

I was going to say the same thing: 4" hinge on 26" tree seems like almost twice the thickness you need. I go with the 10% of dia. rule as far as hinge thickness, and 80 - 90% of dia. for hinge length. I'm glad nothing terrible happened and everything worked out, but like Smokechase, I am not that comfortable using a machine to pull on a rope. The reason is this: it is impossible to know just how much load you are putting on the rope when its tied to the truck, chipper winch, ect. I prefer to use a fiddle block set-up and pull by hand. Again, glad nothing bad happened.

 

[Dadatwins]

Glad no one was hurt, lucky the tree was hickory, some other species would not have held on. Lucky the rope broke and you did not pull the whole tree over. I am not a fan of pulling with with winches , trucks just for this reason, especially with a climber in a tree. I will use them as an anchor, but it is to easy to overstress the rope or the tree with machinery. A fiddle block, 3-1 pulley should be all you need to get a good enough lean to get most anything moving in the right direction. Be careful.

 

[Bearcreek]

Hinge thickness varies for me depending on the size of the tree, but species plays a huge part in it as well. On a healthy hickory or oak the hinge
often needs to be very small compared to what it would be on a rotten silver maple. I don't think there can really be a universal rule of thumb for hinge thickness. It does sound like four inches is a bit thick to start a pull on a hickory, although it might have needed it because of the rot in the center.

 

[teamtree]

You all are correct. I got careless and learned a valuable lesson. If I knew everything, i wouldn't be on this site trying to pick up more knowledge (or lose some...lol). We put too much tension on the tree before it was ready to be winched. I usually notch it and then pull the rope tight but no pressure on the tree. Then I will put my back cut in so I can set some wedges then I will put a slight bit of tension on the tree so I can finish the cut and get away before they pull. I just did not take the time to check the tension and it was too much and when Jeff started to pull it was already to tight, thus the winch rope broke.

I am sure someone thinks there is a better way and that is fine, there may be a better way. I like to pull trees and spars with a vehicle rather than a winch but I have used all sorts of methods to pull trees. I try to evaluate the situation and make sure it is proper method. Many variables to consider.

 

[treeslayer]

I pull over really big trees every chance I get, and regularly "sculpt" them to fit the drop zone. and its CRITICAL the man applying the load know what he's doing, and especially that he works at the fellers direction.
I set the rope, pull it taut, not tight. I then cut the wedge. then I load the rope, by signaling the puller. by this I mean a good rope stores massive energy when stretched. (and I set the tension) THEN I cut to the hinge point, 2" approx. depending on lean and amount of correction needed in the steering cut. (which follows the hinge side if neccessary) this is the point where the tree starts moving, and we allow the tree to follow the rope that has been loaded. by cutting as slow AS NEEDED, final steering can be accomplished. I use hand signals, radios, even the cell phone to direct final pull. the truck might have 2-3 pulleys as redirects and could be 500' + away and out of sight.
overpull can misdirect, and sometimes have tragic results.
this method requires experience, theres is a lot of "feel" involved.
the tree pictured required a skidsteer on a bull rope, didn't "feel right", so I set another bull rope, and a pulley, and used a big 4x4. this tree almost went stupid, glad I did not join it. this happens sometimes, I get greedy. but I follow instinct.

BTW, teamtree, nice website. and keep up the good work.

 

[Rftreeman]

last rope failure I saw was not on my job but a friends, they were pulling a large (40" dbh & 50ft tall) red oak stub and pulling it with a bobcat up hill and the rope snapped where it was tied to the stub with a running bowline and the saw man had cut one side completely out and when the rope snapped the stub broke off and fell to the right at a 90 degree angle and took out a pole to pole secondary power line and pulled the meter off the house and so on, you get the picture, I now install two ropes on large stuff when I using mechanical pulling devices...........this was the second time that cutter did this, the first time he took out a primary line, cable, phone lines and 2 poles along with all the service drops for each company and the meter box, I don't let this guy even get close to a saw on my jobs..........

 

[Dadatwins]

last rope failure I saw was not on my job but a friends, they were pulling a large (40" dbh & 50ft tall) red oak stub and pulling it with a bobcat up hill and the rope snapped where it was tied to the stub with a running bowline and the saw man had cut one side completely out and when the rope snapped the stub broke off and fell to the right at a 90 degree angle and took out a pole to pole secondary power line and pulled the meter off the house and so on, you get the picture, I now install two ropes on large stuff when I using mechanical pulling devices...........this was the second time that cutter did this, the first time he took out a primary line, cable, phone lines and 2 poles along with all the service drops for each company and the meter box, I don't let this guy even get close to a saw on my jobs..........

With that much damage I would not let him within a mile radius I was working on, much less near a chainsaw.

 

[Mikecutstrees]

Smokechase, I am not that comfortable using a machine to pull on a rope. The reason is this: it is impossible to know just how much load you are putting on the rope when its tied to the truck, chipper winch, ect.

Just wanted to comment: Using a truck or winch is a controllable and efficient way to apply tension to a tree. You can regulate the tension. Just apply a little then feel the rope, Is it tight and stretched? After a little practice and knowledge you should be able to accurately judge tension. Now that being said without being careful you can easily put way too much tension on a rope with a winch or truck. Most of the time all you need is a pull line with a man, or a 3-1 mechanical advantage devise. Be safe.... Mike

 

[murphy4trees]

Very good discussion...
You can say whatever you want and the truth is people are going to tend to take the easy route... and with all the new chippers out on jobs that now have winches, people are going to use them to pull trees, because it is easier than setting up the rigging and pulling by hand.....

Smokechase you're damn skippy that was a dangerous move.. man in th tree with 4" of hinge left and enough pull to break a rope... and rot int he base of the tree to boot... That is a recipe for an early death... Who knows maybe it was an angel that caused that rope to break just casue it wasn't your time yet. God still has something left for you to do on this earth. I've had my life saved by miracles at least twice and have also seen "my whole life flash before my eyes"..

Treeslayer has it right... Both the cutter and the puller have to know what they are doing and coordinate.. I recently upgraded my old F150 5.0 litre to a dodge 2500 cummins diesel.. And I worry about the new truck having too much power... I usually cut the notch first, then preload the line. I'll watch the top of the tree move when the line is loaded and then check the line by hand to get a feel for how tight the line is... Then for the fall, sometimes its best to tell the driver to wait until the tree begins to move then hit the gas... sometimes he's only to go when signalled... there are a lot of variables and clear communication is a must... That and a good hinge...

If you don't know exactly what a good hinge is then learn!!! Settting up a good hinge is THE SINGLE MOST VALUABLE skill to have in this profession!

 

[clearance]

Just wanted to comment: Using a truck or winch is a controllable and efficient way to apply tension to a tree. You can regulate the tension. Just apply a little then feel the rope, Is it tight and stretched? After a little practice and knowledge you should be able to accurately judge tension. Now that being said without being careful you can easily put way too much tension on a rope with a winch or truck. Most of the time all you need is a pull line with a man, or a 3-1 mechanical advantage devise. Be safe.... Mike

Yep. Pulled over many trees with trucks, hoes. All the critical gear has to be in good condition, all the crew has to be in the loop and competent. Check, check and check again all the blocks, ropes, pins, chains, etc.

 

[jomoco]

You all are correct. I got careless and learned a valuable lesson. If I knew everything, i wouldn't be on this site trying to pick up more knowledge (or lose some...lol). We put too much tension on the tree before it was ready to be winched. I usually notch it and then pull the rope tight but no pressure on the tree. Then I will put my back cut in so I can set some wedges then I will put a slight bit of tension on the tree so I can finish the cut and get away before they pull. I just did not take the time to check the tension and it was too much and when Jeff started to pull it was already to tight, thus the winch rope broke.

I am sure someone thinks there is a better way and that is fine, there may be a better way. I like to pull trees and spars with a vehicle rather than a winch but I have used all sorts of methods to pull trees. I try to evaluate the situation and make sure it is proper method. Many variables to consider.

I don't get it Teamtree, you use a rope to pull the tree over and wedges?

Now I've used wedges, a rope, guys pushing the tree, a crane slapping or pushing the tree with it's boom extension, backhoes, bobcats and trackhoes, but I don't think I've ever winched a tree up and over and also used wedges.

It might make sense though if you were unsure of your pulling power, say a few men pulling the rope and getting pulled themselves.

It probably reduced the oscillating forces on the hinge when the rope snapped as well so it makes a certain degree of sense in that respect too.

Interesting thread.

jomoco

 

[murphy4trees]

OH and another little story just came to mind speaking of putting too much pull on a line..

A buddy of mine that drives a log truck asked to look at a job with him at a local hospital He was going in to drop about 15 oaks with the land clearing crew he normally works with... As we pulled into the parking lot I said just keep driving... why dod you even bother asking me to come looka t the job.. they are all straight oaks, solid wood , no lean, no sideweight to the canopy.. Wide open DZ... Couldn;t have been easier.. He replies... well these guys are excellent fallers in the woods but get a little nervous working around anything man-made...

So we jump out for a quick look... The he mentins he's going to be pulling with the 60,000 lb winch on a big skidder. They are going to set the cable with a 60' bucket truck. I said, that's insane... these trees are all straight. You could pretty much pull them by hand... Just use the slingshot, set a 1/2" line in the tops and pull em with a pick up... He looked at me like I was crazy... asking "why would you do that when you have all the power of a skidder right here". Isaid because you don't need all that power and you could get yourself in trouble pulling like that, especially if you are pulling from below the center of gravity...

Well we just had to agree to disagree on that one... A couple weeks later he tells me the story. He was starting a backcut on a big tree and signalled for a little pull just to tighten up the cable, but the guy at the controls thought he said pull it over and the tree barberchaired and almost took his head off... The jobs safety coordinator freaked out and almost shut down the whole job...

Hey don't listen to me... What do I know.. I've only been doing this work for 27 years...

BE CAREFUL NOT TO OVERPULL!!!

 

[juststumps]

There are no dumb questions.
Just dumb people that ask questions.

.

i don't know ... i always thought it was the DUMB people , that didn't ask questions !!! JMHO

 

[sawinredneck]

You all are correct. I got careless and learned a valuable lesson. If I knew everything, i wouldn't be on this site trying to pick up more knowledge (or lose some...lol). We put too much tension on the tree before it was ready to be winched. I usually notch it and then pull the rope tight but no pressure on the tree. Then I will put my back cut in so I can set some wedges then I will put a slight bit of tension on the tree so I can finish the cut and get away before they pull. I just did not take the time to check the tension and it was too much and when Jeff started to pull it was already to tight, thus the winch rope broke.

I am sure someone thinks there is a better way and that is fine, there may be a better way. I like to pull trees and spars with a vehicle rather than a winch but I have used all sorts of methods to pull trees. I try to evaluate the situation and make sure it is proper method. Many variables to consider.

So did you learn somthing? I think so.
Will you make the same mistake? I doubt it!
And you had the balls to come on here and tell us that you screwed up, you now know how you screwed up, and have learned!
If I had a dime for everytime I screwed up!!!
Kudos to you, I have done it, and I know, it takes class to come on here and admit a mistake If you don't screw up once in a while you haven't done anything!!!

No flaming from me! (Just glad you walked away!! Been a couple I probably shouldn't have!)

 

[Blakesmaster]

I don't get it Teamtree, you use a rope to pull the tree over and wedges?



jomoco

I've used a combo of wedges and a rope/winch combo to pull over a spar. Use the wedges for a bit of lift and then re-tension the pull line. Seems to me that this practice could have prevented exactly what happened in this situation. And it lets you whittle your hinge down to just the right thickness to prevent barberchair if you drive them in as you saw as opposed to guesstimating and yelling "pull".