For the Foresters... Well Anybody Interested in Forestry for that Matter.
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hammerlogging
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Nope doesn't sound right. With all the tree lengthing going on you seldom see them heel a log and swing it.
The butts always towards the landing. Walk away from the pile as far as you can still reach, grab the butts and swing while dragging the logs to as far as you reach. 2x boom reach plus length of machine. More like 80' but your mileage may vary.
My math sounded high when I enterred it--- no you wouldn't heel and swing to where you've changed orientation though there can be heeling as the pass begins-- and no, indeed no heel from the small end. I have seen some mean end over end passes sliding the grapple down the stem as she goes. and some stem shuffle to increase the pass length, but its still not 165 is it.
You are a real resource there, hope I know what you know one day
Humptulips
ArboristSite Guru
I hope you have higher aspirations then that. You're setting the bar pretty low.
give a man a role of flagging and he thinks he's a ####ing cop!
jinglin' mah spurs right now
give a man a role of flagging and he thinks he's a ####ing cop!
Give the new foresters two rolls of flagging. Let's see if they can bring the unit corners in square.
hammerlogging
Addicted to ArboristSite
Give the new foresters two rolls of flagging. Let's see if they can bring the unit corners in square.
you sir I would love a good sparring with, nothing like a challenge of the wits.
last one I tried to have an intelligent conversation with told me that I could get that far corner of junk on a convex slope I diplomatically elected not to cut at all by running a skyline perpendicular and across the first five lines logged. I had to bite my tongue when that was suggested! Yes, I could get it that way. Yes. then again, when i jumped out of my truck on my way out when he was visiting the job to say hello and he looked at my crocs and asked if I cut in those, damn, he makes it hard not ot be a completely rude smartass. When he saw my 34" .063 bar on a hopped up 660, and said most folks around here run shorter bars I said " there's alot of things I do different, thats the reason I'm here"
gov't wuss. nothing meant against the good folks who know their ####, but the weak ones, get out of my way. I liek having the good ones around, they actually answer my questions so I don't have to spend the time wandering around for answers myself!
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That is some funny stuff there. State guy?
StihlKiwi
ArboristSite Guru
Are FS and other govt. foresters edumacated the same as other foresters in the states?
Sounds like they're less popular, but I like to think thats because of who they work for, not what they do..
Sounds like they're less popular, but I like to think thats because of who they work for, not what they do..
hammerlogging
Addicted to ArboristSite
some are great and its as with anything, you have to go person by person. But, given the circumstances, sometimes a career gov't forester can have a less reasonable approach to problem solving having never had to fight to make a living, the capitalist in the free market is driven to a different mindset.
StihlKiwi
ArboristSite Guru
Knowing a few people that work for the crown, that makes sense. Career job seems to mean a different thing to them.
Good thing forestry was pretty much all privatised here in the late 80's/early 90's, I'd much rather work for a company than the govt.
Good thing forestry was pretty much all privatised here in the late 80's/early 90's, I'd much rather work for a company than the govt.
OlympicYJ
ArboristSite Guru
I'm a Technical Forester that means 2yrs of education here. I'm working on my last two for a four yr Bachelors of Science in Forest Resources with a minor in Operations. Ok now we have some good folks on here that have and do work for the government. Most top notch foresters go to the private companies. In addition they can't stand government bureaucracy and the politics involved. Trust me this is a trend I've been observing for a while now...
There is a different mindset especially when it comes to regulatory folks such as those that work for a State DNR. There used to be some really good forestry professionals that worked for the Feds; even a hand full of em left too.
Most of the problem has to do with the education system and where you're drawing your foresters from. Guys like me that grew up in timber country (more rural) gravitate towards private. People from more urban areas tend to gravitate toward your government jobs. The universities now days don't offer true forestry degrees. They have become very biology/ecosystem management based. A major emphasis in teaching harvesting and field skills has fallen at the universities and that affects your quality of foresters. Most of this is made up for with experience and lessons learned from the old guard. Although a past boss came from Seattle and he was a great guy. Goofy but a good guy and knows his stuff.
Oh and if I ran into a faller runin a 34 and a modded 660 I'd probably ask what all he had done and who did the work! Oh wait I've already done this!
I retired from the gubmint. I'm what the loggers call a forester, but real foresters won't call me that. I merely have a 2 year degree plus a quickie, 10 week forest engineering course (that Kiwis were sometimes sent here to go to) and experiences.
I ended up working for the FS because, well, it was 1976 and nobody else HAD to hire women. Yes, I'm an affirmative action hire. I wanted to work in forestry.
My family was not fond of the Forest Service. My Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle had problems with them. He leased a grazing allotment. My dad? Well he worked in powerline construction and sometimes came home early because the FS shut them down due to fire danger all around.
Previously, I'd worked in orchards for minimum wage and piece work. So getting paid twice as much to plant trees was great. While working seasonally for the FS, I'd ski bum in the winter. I was a liftie and a ski instructor.
Let me see, before becoming the evil sale administrator, I had a background in the usual timber things. I also wished I knew more about logging methods when I marked timber.
And yes, I did a lot of stupid stuff, as I'll bet a lot of you did. We survived and learned.
I liked working around logging, because I was always learning something new. Maybe that's it. If you can keep on learning, it makes it easier to get out of that warm, dry, pickup into horizontal sleet.
I kind of miss that part of the job. Now the really bad part of the FS-and it is getting worse, is that timber is considered, by the new employees--mostly with 'ology and recreation backgrounds and interests, to be the monster relative that you keep chained up in the attic and ignore except for the occasional meal. Even though there is a hard target to meet, they do not consider that to be their "real" job and do the minimum or prescribe things that just don't make sense or are likely to cause costs to go up. Case in point: Silt fencing required around the edges of landings. Like that's going to hold up with logs dragging over the top. Maybe it has somewhere and I haven't learned about it? Please tell me if any of you work this way.
I could not get any of those folks to go out on the ground and see what actually goes on. Here they are planning--making rules for equipment and logging systems, and they have no idea what they are talking about. Disclaimer: I'm talking locally. There are exceptions--just not here. I took a Loggers World to one meeting so I could show them pictures of a feller buncher and a loader. One guy did not know that they are different pieces of equipment. But he was describing how they must work. From a recent talk with a new sale administrator, that same 'ologist did not pay attention and still thinks they are the same piece of equipment.:bang:
Then folks like me have to try to work out all their demands so logging can happen and hopefully in an economic fashion, or we won't have logging anymore. That last part is looking more and more likely. The FS here is once again or maybe it never stopped? reorganizing. That means that they get rid of the folks who do the ground work, and keep the folks who get paid the most, and might get promotions because of their downsizing efforts.
If you do your job, because you are working around guys who must produce or go broke, you have to be pretty callous to delay things purposely. There are some things that are biggies, and you must stop operations for, but for the less serious stuff, a solution could often be figured out on the ground. I took heat for letting rock get shot for road construction during Spotted Owl nesting breeding season, moving the location of roads, and the biggest pain was having landings on a busy, paved, tourist route. I also had a couple of loggers try to get me fired. One even pulled the political strings he had, but at that place, I had good support even as he tried to go over people's heads.
When I retired, I found out that the loggers really liked how I got out to the units early in the morning. Thats a good thing to do. If you beat the crew, you might find a good parking spot, except the falling gods will show up after you and the rigging crew and demand you move so they can park there.:msp_smile:
Right now there is a shortage of folks doing what I did. If you can handle the BS, and prima donnas, and the logger constantly telling how screwed up your employer is, it might be a good thing to get into. But it is also a gamble, timber management on FS ground is a bit shaky as far as going on into the future.
I ended up working for the FS because, well, it was 1976 and nobody else HAD to hire women. Yes, I'm an affirmative action hire. I wanted to work in forestry.
My family was not fond of the Forest Service. My Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle had problems with them. He leased a grazing allotment. My dad? Well he worked in powerline construction and sometimes came home early because the FS shut them down due to fire danger all around.
Previously, I'd worked in orchards for minimum wage and piece work. So getting paid twice as much to plant trees was great. While working seasonally for the FS, I'd ski bum in the winter. I was a liftie and a ski instructor.
Let me see, before becoming the evil sale administrator, I had a background in the usual timber things. I also wished I knew more about logging methods when I marked timber.
And yes, I did a lot of stupid stuff, as I'll bet a lot of you did. We survived and learned.
I liked working around logging, because I was always learning something new. Maybe that's it. If you can keep on learning, it makes it easier to get out of that warm, dry, pickup into horizontal sleet.
I kind of miss that part of the job. Now the really bad part of the FS-and it is getting worse, is that timber is considered, by the new employees--mostly with 'ology and recreation backgrounds and interests, to be the monster relative that you keep chained up in the attic and ignore except for the occasional meal. Even though there is a hard target to meet, they do not consider that to be their "real" job and do the minimum or prescribe things that just don't make sense or are likely to cause costs to go up. Case in point: Silt fencing required around the edges of landings. Like that's going to hold up with logs dragging over the top. Maybe it has somewhere and I haven't learned about it? Please tell me if any of you work this way.
I could not get any of those folks to go out on the ground and see what actually goes on. Here they are planning--making rules for equipment and logging systems, and they have no idea what they are talking about. Disclaimer: I'm talking locally. There are exceptions--just not here. I took a Loggers World to one meeting so I could show them pictures of a feller buncher and a loader. One guy did not know that they are different pieces of equipment. But he was describing how they must work. From a recent talk with a new sale administrator, that same 'ologist did not pay attention and still thinks they are the same piece of equipment.:bang:
Then folks like me have to try to work out all their demands so logging can happen and hopefully in an economic fashion, or we won't have logging anymore. That last part is looking more and more likely. The FS here is once again or maybe it never stopped? reorganizing. That means that they get rid of the folks who do the ground work, and keep the folks who get paid the most, and might get promotions because of their downsizing efforts.
If you do your job, because you are working around guys who must produce or go broke, you have to be pretty callous to delay things purposely. There are some things that are biggies, and you must stop operations for, but for the less serious stuff, a solution could often be figured out on the ground. I took heat for letting rock get shot for road construction during Spotted Owl nesting breeding season, moving the location of roads, and the biggest pain was having landings on a busy, paved, tourist route. I also had a couple of loggers try to get me fired. One even pulled the political strings he had, but at that place, I had good support even as he tried to go over people's heads.
When I retired, I found out that the loggers really liked how I got out to the units early in the morning. Thats a good thing to do. If you beat the crew, you might find a good parking spot, except the falling gods will show up after you and the rigging crew and demand you move so they can park there.:msp_smile:
Right now there is a shortage of folks doing what I did. If you can handle the BS, and prima donnas, and the logger constantly telling how screwed up your employer is, it might be a good thing to get into. But it is also a gamble, timber management on FS ground is a bit shaky as far as going on into the future.
I've mentioned before that I have no FORMAL education in Forestry. My education is pretty broad. I like to think of it as three very separate, different educations: Forest Ecology, Nuclear Engineering, Photography. I ended up in Forestry when I got kicked out of school during my second senior year in college and discovered that a tree nerd with no degree can't get a job as a tree nerd, so I ended up working as a contract forestry technician. Did that for a few years before I joined the Navy and loved the work. When I got out of the Navy, I finished my degrees and went right back to work in the woods, first as a biological technician and finally in the position I'm in now, "Forestry Technician". That's right, like slowp, "real" foresters won't regard me as a peer either.
What I find useful, though, is that having done time as a contractor and as Navy enlisted, I understand both the commercial need to produce and the need to have and enforce a rigid framework of rules that keep things moving. I'm also pretty comfortable dealing with... err... "challenging" personality types.
Many times in staff meetings a contract is proposed which has some weird language that may appear to serve the needs of my office, but which would make the job extremely unattractive. It's easy for me to say "Ain't no way I'd bid on that", and then the idea is killed before it ever leaves the room. Likewise, often logging crews ask, "Why did you guys mark like this?" and I can explain exactly what we were thinking.
Basically what I'm saying is that I'm trying to serve the land as well as possible. The people involved in serving that land are tools, sometimes allies and sometimes obstacles, to achieving that service.
What I find useful, though, is that having done time as a contractor and as Navy enlisted, I understand both the commercial need to produce and the need to have and enforce a rigid framework of rules that keep things moving. I'm also pretty comfortable dealing with... err... "challenging" personality types.
Many times in staff meetings a contract is proposed which has some weird language that may appear to serve the needs of my office, but which would make the job extremely unattractive. It's easy for me to say "Ain't no way I'd bid on that", and then the idea is killed before it ever leaves the room. Likewise, often logging crews ask, "Why did you guys mark like this?" and I can explain exactly what we were thinking.
Basically what I'm saying is that I'm trying to serve the land as well as possible. The people involved in serving that land are tools, sometimes allies and sometimes obstacles, to achieving that service.
Steve NW WI
Unwanted Riff Raff.
Ahem...Horses were dragging logs over corduroy roads here in the upper midwest long before the first hippie moved to Cali, or the first Starbucks store sprouted in WA. For that matter, I'd guess the swamps back east saw em long before we did...
oke::msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:
Huh. Always heard that was a Seattle thing, Yesler Way and Skid Road and dogfish oil greasers and all, circa 1880-ish. Maybe our local references are a bit... err... "regionally biased"? I'd cite Speidel but it sounds as if he's off-base by a bit.
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Slowp, were you a ski bunny? I started out simillar to Wes and went to a tech school worked for a while and realized the sky wasn't the limit with a two year degree so I went back and finished my Bachelors. Upon graduating there I realized a knew crap about logging so I went logging. I just recently left my logging job to take a forester job again and I already miss it. I know it will be good for me long term but I really do think it gets in your blood.
I have been skiing off and on since I was a fourth grader. We skied if my dad had work in the winter. If he didn't we didn't ski. I have a season pass for this winter. I don't go as fast as I used to, and I don't ski the steeps or bumps like I used to...it can be depressing to think about that.
I didn't have the option to go logging to learn it. I did sneak down and set chokers for part of a day, and another time, I lost patience and started unhooking logs to help get a sale DONE. But I did ask a lot of questions when I was down in the unit checking stuff or chasing after the hooktender to go OK tailholds.
I didn't have the option to go logging to learn it. I did sneak down and set chokers for part of a day, and another time, I lost patience and started unhooking logs to help get a sale DONE. But I did ask a lot of questions when I was down in the unit checking stuff or chasing after the hooktender to go OK tailholds.
forestryworks
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hammerlogging
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Thank you SlowP and Madhatte.
I actually prefer working FS to private, in part because the bar is set higher. Sometimes, depending on who shows up, you just have to roll your eyes.
I actually prefer working FS to private, in part because the bar is set higher. Sometimes, depending on who shows up, you just have to roll your eyes.
q-tip jr
ArboristSite Member
Ahem...Horses were dragging logs over corduroy roads here in the upper midwest long before the first hippie moved to Cali, or the first Starbucks store sprouted in WA. For that matter, I'd guess the swamps back east saw em long before we did...
the ones we worked over top of in Maine in the early 80's must have been imported.... several inches of peat etc on top of them would make them pretty darn old....
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