Has anybody ever made it who did not come up "through the ranks"?

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Plasmech

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When I say come up through the ranks I mean say doing a groundiship at Davey or whatever, then worked as a paid climber, then gone on your own.

I would imagine the above has a much higher success rate and a lower blood loss rate.

Anybody been able to do it?
 
I never worked for another tree company, and I have never had any training. When I started climbing, I went out and bought an old used saddle & spurs, a new twist rope, and started up the tree with my only chainsaw: a Pro-Mac 10-10s [closely related to an 18" boat anchor]. I used that same heavy chainsaw for about 5 years.

I am completely self taught with respect to trees, chainsaws, and ropes, notwithstanding all the skilled people I have watched and the information that I have diligently watched for.

On the other hand, I am a really bright person that has the unusual ability to read something and understand the material so well that I can do the job. And I have taken some unbelievable risks, and had some perilous experiences. Many situations that I survived or "got out of" were only because of dumb luck.
 
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I didn't really have much of a "groundiship". I started out with a guy who let me climb because I bugged the crap out of him. He let me set ropes in trees and do light pruning at his discretion. He let me bring a chainsaw up with me about the first month I worked for him. I still did ground work though. That was the deal. He would let me climb but I would still have to do the ground work. He did all the hard stuff in the tree but by the first year I was doing some pretty technical removals. I had saw skills before I went to work for him though. I wouldn't cut a newbie loose in a tree with a chainsaw until he proved to me he had saw skills by watching him cut on the ground. Some of the climbers I have started have been relegated to a hand saw for more than a month. Just depends on their saw skills and aptitude.
 
I started up straight out of school with my landscape design and arboriculture degree. I had worked for a landscaping company previously and trimmed trees and shrubs on occasion but nothing real big. Learning the business end of things was the toughest - the first 3 years in particular. I had to work a night job to pay the bills and then did tree work and landscaping during the day. 3-4 hours of sleep per night for about 2 years straight. I don't know how I managed to think clearly enough to keep from killing myself.

I owe a lot to my former college mentor, John Ball, who really went above and beyond to help me get the ball rolling. Amazing guy. Actually, a number of prominent community members got behind me and helped spread the word about my business. Connections and networking really make a big difference in this business!
 
I didn't really have much of a "groundiship". I started out with a guy who let me climb because I bugged the crap out of him. He let me set ropes in trees and do light pruning at his discretion. He let me bring a chainsaw up with me about the first month I worked for him. I still did ground work though. That was the deal. He would let me climb but I would still have to do the ground work. He did all the hard stuff in the tree but by the first year I was doing some pretty technical removals. I had saw skills before I went to work for him though. I wouldn't cut a newbie loose in a tree with a chainsaw until he proved to me he had saw skills by watching him cut on the ground. Some of the climbers I have started have been relegated to a hand saw for more than a month. Just depends on their saw skills and aptitude.

Hey MD, do you ever run into that John Nosak guy?
 
It sounds like you had a clear goal, and worked diligently to get there. Kudo's!

I am a bit confused about your startup. Were those first two years filled with low sales, unprofitable work, or were you just trying to pay for equipment investment? [yes, I know it was a combination of all of the above, but perhaps you will share some of the details]
 
It sounds like you had a clear goal, and worked diligently to get there. Kudo's!

I am a bit confused about your startup. Were those first two years filled with low sales, unprofitable work, or were you just trying to pay for equipment investment? [yes, I know it was a combination of all of the above, but perhaps you will share some of the details]

In the fall of my last year of college, a classmate and I approached our arboriculture professor, John Ball, about helping us to pick out some basic tree care equipment (climbing gear, small saws, rigging stuff) so that we could make a few bucks on the side while finishing up school and looking for jobs once we graduate. John knew about a city forester who had his own part-time tree service for sale and hooked us up with him. We bought him out and went to work with his older yet reliable bucket truck, full setup of saws and rigging gear and his client list. It cost us something like $10 or $15k at the time (I can't remember for sure).

It kept us busy enough during the school year that we decided to run it full time once we graduated that next spring. That's when reality set in and we had to start repaying school loans on top of paying business expenses and paying ourselves a salary. We just didn't have enough experience in running a business to understand all the expenses associated with a tree service and we were still trying to build a customer base so we could charge what we needed to charge in order to make a living at it. As it was, we were each taking a salary of about $5k that first year after business expenses were paid. Not much to live off of so we each took night jobs at a manufacturing plant and continued to work days doing the tree service thing.

It didn't take working two jobs for long before i decided that the only way we were going to break out and make a go at things was to expand into landscaping. My partner and I each had landscape design degrees as well as arboriculture backgrounds so, to me, it just made sense. After getting a couple of big landscaping jobs under our belts, things took off and we were busy. After two years of the night job thing, I said 'enough' and went back to working full time with the landscaping part of the business while my partner ran the tree service.

Long story short, the landscaping and tree work together got to be more work than my partner had wanted to take on and he left the business. I took it over and bought out a second tree service which gave me more clientel and a bit more equipment to work with. The previous owner was well-connected in the community so I was really buying his name moreso than his equipment. I hired an arborist to run the tree service crew while I still bid the jobs for him and did all the business end of things along with the landscaping.

All this happened in the course of about 3 years. That's how long it took to go from an unknown newcomer in the business to someone with business name recognition within the community. It was a very long 3 years of working 20 hour days with little or no pay to show for it because I put every cent possible back into building the business.

By year 5, things were looking pretty sweet. The tree service was traveling a tri-state area doing residential and utility work and had even gotten in on a huge land reclamation project. The landscaping service was doing a lot of high-end residential work and starting to bring in some serious cash. That's when I made the decision to sell the tree service to my foreman and invest more money into the landscaping company as that's where I saw a real future as the city I was working in was expanding rapidly and had a real need for a good landscaping company.

The landscaping company did well and I was looking to expand into building a large 16-acre garden center to the point that I had secured part put not all of the funding to do so. The process of securing the rest of the funding drug on for over a year and, eventually, I got burnt out on the idea of owning and operating a garden center and I got tired of the landscaping thing as a whole so I sold the company and went back to school for my masters in landscape architecture with the intention of getting a job teaching at a university.

That didn't quite pan out as planned (good think in hind sight) and now I do tree work part-time along with my full-time job which is a good one. I'd love to do tree work full time but my community is overwhelmed with too many tree services as it is. I'm lucky to make a go at it part time this year with so much competition but I plan on hanging around for a few more years...

There you have it. More history on me than you really wanted. :)
 
Thanks.

Now I know who to call for support when the tree guys start picking on the land-scrapers again.

Anytime. There certainly are some landscapers who really don't know how to properly prune trees and shrubs. Of course, there are some tree guys who don't know who to do it right either. From a former landscaper's perspective, i can tell you that I just shake my head when i see tree guys dabbling in landscaping when they know nothing about proper shrub selection or good landscape design.

The 'have wheelbarrow and shovel so I'm a landscaper' mentality is just as prevalent as the 'have chainsaw so I'm an arborist' mentality. Nothing wrong with doing both IF you actually learn about what you're doing rather than just going out and doing.
 
When I say come up through the ranks I mean say doing a groundiship at Davey or whatever, then worked as a paid climber, then gone on your own.

I would imagine the above has a much higher success rate and a lower blood loss rate.

Anybody been able to do it?

I started as a groundman and apprentice climber for the largest tree service in my area. For the next 2.5 years I was a foreman of the public utilities division doing the ROW work, phone and electric clearing. I then worked strictly in electric clearance for a multi state company. I then broke out on my own starting with just a pick up, climbing gear and 2 saws. One to trim, and the other for ground work. The following year I bought a one ton dump truck and more saws and gear. The beginning of the 3rd year I bought a used Aspludhn tree truck and old chipper, then a f-600 with a hydr, lift gate. After 5 years, I had 2 crews working every available day and in the 6th year added a landscaping crew and a lawn service crew. Continued like that for 3 years and the headaches and over head forced me to scale back to just the tree work which yielded the best revenue anyways. I continued on for 20+ years till a busted up spine forced me to sell the biz and change gears completely. I want to note I had no private financing and started slow with buying equipment. I did later open a biz line of credit at my bank once things broke into 6 figures a year in grossing. It can work with patience and some common sense and a good economy. I started my own in 1983 which was a lousy economy for those of you who remember. Hence is why I stacked and hauled brush for close to 2 years.
 
Hey MD, do you ever run into that John Nosak guy?

Haven't met him personally Plas but have run into his crew at a popular local breakfast spot. We always smile and nod when we meet but pretty much keep to ourselves. I did a crane job right next door to where his crew was using the crane as well. I had my tree done before they made two picks. :D

They seem to be pretty nice guys. One of the guys That takes firewood from me gets wood from Nosak as well and says he's really a pretty nice guy in person.

And he is still in business.
 
I guess the first tree-related job I had was working for a local logger in the afternoons and evenings splitting firewood... with an 8-lb maul. After a while, I started running a saw for him, and he taught me how to fell, buck, skid, grade, and sell timber. After about a year with him, I went to work for an old Austrian dude that really knew his stuff. He hated everyone, except me... he was a miserable human being in general. I ran a saw for him, a big Husky (I'm a Stihl guy... does a Husky 1080 make sense?), felling timber, for about a year. After he died, there was no one to take over for him, and his gear was siezed as part of his estate and sold off.

I was cutting firewood, which I was harvesting off the back acreage at my dad's farm, when people started stopping and asking if I was selling firewood. I wasn't, just cutting and splitting for personal use. After the 10th or 12th person stopped and asked, I was in the firewood business. As my name got spread around town, people started asking me if I could remove their trees. I was good with a saw on the ground, and I took on several jobs that I could accomplish easily from the ground. After a while, people started calling wanting to know if I climbed. I was in the process of explaining to one woman that I didn't climb, when my dad snatched the phone out of my hand, and yelled "Hell yeah he climbs, he'll be by Friday!" and hung up on the woman.

My dad was in the line construction biz for 42 years, and immediately took to teaching me the ins and outs of a belt and hooks. Granted, in hindsight, he tought me just enough to be dangerous, as linework and arboriculture are two completely different things.

I started getting more work. I also took a job at the local Agway, where the Nursery Manager was a former tree guy, had his own business back in the day. HE took to teaching me the latin names of most of the Northeast Species (alot of which I have since forgot) and showed me how to climb with ropes, and knots and hitches, and alot of other sacred tree knowledge. I was also handing out business cards like crazy to all the rich people who came up from NYC to spend the weekends in the Adairondacks. The business grew quickly from an old Ford Ranger and a Poulan Pro (it hurts to even mention it...) into several trucks and pieces of equipment, and all the Stihl saws, ropes, rigging gear, and everything else to support the biz.

So to answer your question after all of that blabbering, I dont think so. I think it is valuable to know all aspects of the business for several reasons, and one fo the best ways to gain that experience is from starting at the bottom.

Sorry for the disertation,

T
 
When I say come up through the ranks I mean say doing a groundiship at Davey or whatever, then worked as a paid climber, then gone on your own.

I would imagine the above has a much higher success rate and a lower blood loss rate.

Anybody been able to do it?

I started out aged 15, as an apprentice sheetmetalworker. After 6 years of that I knew I was never going to work in a factory again. Tried on a few hats over the years and although I had some basic chainsaw skills and a good head for heights I essentially started my tree business from scratch. Even though the business came with basic training and 1st class back up I had to make all the usual mistakes in order to learn from them. Luckily I am a quick study!

I think if you can acknowledge that you don't know everything than it is possible to learn from almost everyone you talk to. I know I have picked a few great ideas from this forum.

When I hire new hands now, I don't care what they know. What is most important to me is how well they listen. If they keep their ears open and get on with the job then I pay for any tree related education they need.

:cheers:
 
Anytime. There certainly are some landscapers who really don't know how to properly prune trees and shrubs. Of course, there are some tree guys who don't know who to do it right either. From a former landscaper's perspective, i can tell you that I just shake my head when i see tree guys dabbling in landscaping when they know nothing about proper shrub selection or good landscape design.

The 'have wheelbarrow and shovel so I'm a landscaper' mentality is just as prevalent as the 'have chainsaw so I'm an arborist' mentality. Nothing wrong with doing both IF you actually learn about what you're doing rather than just going out and doing.

That is certainly true, and I am competing with all of them.

At least the landscapers don't often kill themselves by falling off the jobsite or bleeding out from their shovel injuries. They certainly don't know how to do any heavy rigging.
 
Haven't met him personally Plas but have run into his crew at a popular local breakfast spot. We always smile and nod when we meet but pretty much keep to ourselves. I did a crane job right next door to where his crew was using the crane as well. I had my tree done before they made two picks. :D

They seem to be pretty nice guys. One of the guys That takes firewood from me gets wood from Nosak as well and says he's really a pretty nice guy in person.

And he is still in business.

Nice! Hey md, is Gerome still with the old sack??

BTW: nice to see you around again! I was wondering where you been. Just busy squirreling away nuts I suppose? Anyways :cheers: man!
 
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