Have you run an O41AV?

[Andrew96]

Guys...I've managed to resurrect my Dad's 041av with the help from all of your posts. So much so...I've never even posted yet...no need. I found answers to all of my questions with searches. I used to think my Dad was crazy watching him cutting trees with a hand made Mill back in the 80s. I've been milling hardwoods up to 20" diameter with this setup this past summer (old but rebuilt 041, custom mill) and am having way too much fun. So much fun in fact that I think I need to consider another power head for when I wear this old saw out. I'm pleased with the speed at which I can cut, but was hoping someone who has cut 16" - 20" hardwood with this family of saw..might be able to tell me if this is slow...medium..or quick cutting? I have no reference as I've never used a bigger one in a mill. Would I be happy with a similar sized new(er) saw, or would I really be happy with something with more displacement. At present, I don't think I'd find any hardwood much larger than the 20" mark...but who knows.
So....is this an underpowered saw for what I've been doing? Without getting into brand loyality..model suggestions for my application?

 

[mtngun]

The 041 is 61cc, if I remember correctly. No 60cc class saw is seriously considered a milling saw. Sure, I've freehand milled with a 33cc homelite when I didn't know any better, but once you have tasted the power of a bigger saw, there's no going back.

I ran my neighbor's cherry 041 for about 60 seconds, so I'm not exactly an authority, but I have a general idea what they are about.

We were running the neighbor's 041 and my Efco CS62 (62cc) side by side, and swapping saws. Both had sharp full chisel chains (Bailey's 0.325 on the Efco, Stihl 3/8" on the 041). The Efco would easily outcut the 041.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the 041 is a dog compared to modern pro-quality saws. It's heavier and it revs slower. Supposedly it has more low end grunt than modern saws, but you always mill at full throttle, so who cares about part throttle ? If you enjoy playing with the 041 because it reminds you of the good times you had with your dad, that's fine, but don't kid yourself about the performance.

I mill softwood in the 18" - 24" range, and wish my 066 had more power. If you can afford a 90+cc saw for milling, it would definitely outshine the 041. You won't go wrong with a decent used Stihl 066/660 or Husky 395. Nothing against the other brands except for parts availability. Lots of aftermarket parts available for the 660.

 

[BobL]

One limitation to milling speed with saws like the 041 is the low (7000) max rpm, so just going to a more modern saw with say 12000 rpm will make a difference. Like Mtgun says, the 041 does make up for this to some extent by better torque which is important because better torque means the saw will keep cutting and won't bog down as easily. However, a milling saw should be setup to run as close as possible to max rpm and if this is not happening the set up needs to be looked at. One advantage of a well looked after 041 is it will last a lot longer that modern saws and weight is far less of an issue for milling so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

As for increasing power or ccs to increase cutting speed, this too has its limitations and improvements are rarely proportional to power let alone cc increases.

For example, assuming the same setup (bar and chain) on a 20" softwood log, some people think that increasing the capacity of the powerhead from 90 to 120 cc (a 33% increase) will result in a major increase in cutting speed. But the increase in power is not proportional. A 120 cc saw being about 8.5 HP and a 90 cc being about 7 HP, this is only a 20% increase. But there is much more still to consider because chain speed is critical in determining cutting speed. For modern saws the max rpms for these two saws will be very similar so there is no increase in chain speed and just pushing the saw harder will not be enough to increase cutting speed by 20%. One reason for this is, for 20" logs, if the bar chain-setup is correct, the chain should already maxed out in terms of chip generation and sawdust clearing capacity so adding more power will not give a major increase in cutting speed. With a bigger power head one can run bigger chains and drop raker heights significantly , which is what Lucas millers can do (like down to 0.06") but it does lead to correspondingly rougher finishes.

Where the bigger saws do come into their own is when the logs get wider and harder but there are plenty of people around that mill small logs with small saws. I still occasionally mill small logs with my 50 cc homelite with an 050 low profile chain mainly because I want to reduce sawdust losses in small logs. The reality is that CS milling has many limitations and is why BS milling is superior and preferred by professional millers.

 

[Brmorgan]

I've been milling hardwoods up to 20" diameter with this setup this past summer (old but rebuilt 041, custom mill) and am having way too much fun. So much fun in fact that I think I need to consider another power head for when I wear this old saw out.

Good luck wearing one out... 041s are one of the most bomb-proof saws ever made. Keep good mix in it & a good, clean air filter along with regular maintenance and it should still be running for your grandkids. As noted, not the fastest or lightest saw out there, but the advantage it does have is enough bottom-end torque that it could pull a 28" chain if it had to and just keep chugging along, whereas a modern (stock) high-revving 60-cc saw would be useless with such a setup. The advantage of having a lot of low-RPM torque is not that it will cut well at partial throttle; rather that it can be worked a lot harder (e.g. pull a longer chain in harder wood) at wide-open without bogging out & stalling the chain completely. This is what porting or muffler modding a saw does - you end up sacrificing a bit (or a lot) of fuel efficiency in return for both higher RPMs and a much broader torque band.

I have both a vanilla 041AV and also an 041AV Super @ 72cc. Significantly more grunt and a much throatier sound. It's a sleeper though and has turned a couple heads out cutting firewood - I still haven't switched the model tag to a Super since upgrading it.

Here it is at idle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrhusFkmsQg

And cutting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2_kbkGGa24
For some reason embedding isn't working right now.

That's with a ridiculous 20" .325/9-pin chain which didn't cut very well but was all I had lying around at the time. I should make another video at the same log with a different setup - I have either 3/8 25" skip, or .404 28" full-comp (from the 660). Thinking of trying the latter just for kicks. I should note that I have used the 041 (non-Super) with this 20" .325 setup for ripping boards from 6" - 8" cants, and it did a fine job with that. Not as fast as I can do with the saws I have now, but it worked well at the time. Until one of the screws that secure the fuel tank to the case vibrated loose and the resulting movement broke a couple bolt eyes off the tank. :censored:

You didn't mention what size of bar and what type of chain you're using. If you're running a 24" mill for that ~20" hardwood, then I'd recommend a 26 - 28" bar running either 3/8" .050 low-profile milling chain for a smoother finish, or a skip chisel chain filed at about 15° for a slightly rougher finish but possibly a faster cut. It's hard to say which type of chain would win for speed without trying each first though.

Also, just want to make sure you don't misunderstand Bob and actually drop your rakers to .060" - that would be disastrous for a saw this size, not to mention dangerous.

 

[mtngun]

For example, assuming the same setup (bar and chain) on a 20" softwood log, some people think that increasing the capacity of the powerhead from 90 to 120 cc (a 33% increase) will result in a major increase in cutting speed. ...... For modern saws the max rpms for these two saws will be very similar so there is no increase in chain speed .

True -- if the saw has enough grunt to maintain those max rpms while milling.

When I said I wished my 066 had more power, I meant that it starts to drop rpms as the logs approach 24". It's not so bad that it completely bogs down, but it does slow noticeably and I have to start being careful with the feed rate to maintain decent revs. It would be nice to have enough power to keep the revs up without a lot of finesse.

Anyway, Andrew, your 041 is a nice 30 year old saw to have around for nostalgic reasons and perhaps as a backup firewood saw, but if you are serious about milling, there are far better choices.

 

[Brmorgan]

Anyway, Andrew, your 041 is a nice 30 year old saw to have around for nostalgic reasons and perhaps as a backup firewood saw, but if you are serious about milling, there are far better choices.

True. Now if he could find an 051, he'd be in business!

 

[mtngun]

it does have is enough bottom-end torque that it could pull a 28" chain if it had to and just keep chugging along, whereas a modern (stock) high-revving 60-cc saw would be useless with such a setup.

My neighbor's 041 was set up with a 25" bar. It would indeed chug along. Chug, chug, chug. Sloooooow.

Bucking the same douglas fir, the 041 was easier to bog down than my high-revving CS62.

Speaking of chug, chug, chug, I will say that an 041 sounds very cool at idle.

 

[Mike Van]

I bought mine new in '72 - I've lost track of the chains I sharpened away to nothing on it. Stihl making chips after all these years.

 

[Andrew96]

Guys, Now this is the info I wanted. I cannot reply to everyone individually..however. Yes..this saw gives me some good time feelings. The sounds of the woods with my dad and me...its great. However, setting up the old mill on the old saw was to see if I liked this CSM thing. I do. It's not like I'd ever get rid of the 041 but wanted a feel for it's performance. Though I knew it was 60cc...I didn't know it was only a 7K rpm machine. I do know and understand the relationship between chain speed, depth of cut (raker), length of cut (# of cutters per tree width) and cutter geometry. You still need some power to pull all that though. You can do some tricks with skip chains, cutter geometry etc but chain speed and depth of cut/# of cuts is the key to feed rate. I knew newer saws ran at a higher rpm...I just didn't think the old 041 ran at 7. I figured..maybe 9-10K.
OK, don't laugh. I have a lot of bar. The old mill is a bolt through the bar type (drill the bar). It's 20" between the threaded rods. I needed at least a 24" bar (ish) to keep the drilled hole away from the roller tip. When I went to my local dealer to discuss bar options with my tape, they produced a 28" that wasn't in their inventory system. It had been hanging on the wall for at least 10 years they said. $30 worth of negotiating purchased the brand new but too long a bar. I couldn't walk away from that...even with a more expensive chain. I figured I would be fine as I wasn't going to be able to ever sink that bar in more than the 20" mill could fit. I'd never buck with it for fear of cutting to china. At least I think it's a 28". You guys will know...it takes a 105 link chain length. Anyway, it's HUGE. The intent was to give this a go and then get a proper head to power the mill/make a new mill. I just didn't know if the 60cc machine was even close. As I can see from everyone comments...it's just a baby for this job. I can only say then that running a sharp 33RS x 105 link chain will allow the poor old saw to actually cut. It cuts clean, smooth and will produce good chips at WFO. And here I thought it was cutting at an OK feed rate. About 10 years ago a newer saw was purchased and this 041 became the spare. I think the replacement is about the same displacement. It's not mine though...no way I could mill with Dads newer saw. So... I need to step into the 90cc family at a minimum. Or rather get out of the 60s in the both saw design, and displacement.
Oh...the 041 has been very well cared for. My rebuild went from crank seals all the way to piston and rings, total clean out of everything. Runs sweet...for an antique. Sure glad to hear it will always be around.

 

[Andrew96]

This 041 has always had a 20" bar on it. Well...for as long as I can remember. I still have the box with many filed away chains and worn out bars a few rings and a piston or two. Maybe the fresh top ends, clean air filters, sharp cutters has given us decent performance over the years. Any saw I've ever raced has been some little baby one..no contest...even with the antique that this is. I'm pretty sure the raker jig I made is for 0.020" depth but it might be 0.025". I never changed that depth of bite. It seemed to be happy pulling the 20" bar at 20 thou bites. I don't think I've ever had it in softwood. Not that I can remember.
So...I'm not the kind of guy to run to a dealer and buy a brand new saw. I might have too if I'm after a big one...less popular (I'd only buy something where I can see it..have a look inside if it's questionable). However, If I'm after a bigger one, that's not brand new...a stihl...what models should I look for? I'd go bigger rather than newer. A 066 seems to be an old 660. Have the 880s changed much over the years? When did 088s become 880s? Clearly, I'm sure there are many posts about these two saws but I haven't done a search yet. Do these larger heads still run at a high rpm?

 

[Andrew96]

With a bigger power head one can run bigger chains and drop raker heights significantly , which is what Lucas millers can do (like down to 0.06") but it does lead to correspondingly rougher finishes.

Bob....Why is a heavier cut called a lucas Miller? Can you explain?

 

[lumberjackchef]

I can attest to the fact that what these guys are saying about a higher reving saws of this same 60cc range and how they are not suitable for milling. My first experiment with milling was a homade alaskan style mill and a Husky 61.

I put a 28" bar on it and abused that little saw in no time with even the small 12-18 hardwoods that I tried it out on. Couldn't keep any rpms in the wood and had a very slow feed rate. Granted It was all part of the learning curve. From the way it sounds your little 041 does a much better job than my husky did. If you already feel comfortable rebuilding saws then find an old 066 or 088, rebuild and modify(plenty to learn about in threads around here) it from the bottom up like you did this saw and you will be pleasantly surprised at the difference. That's what I ended up doing and have rebuilt 3 066's since. They are great milling saws especially when modded. I have run it with a friends 48" alaskan mill in some 40+" oak logs and it did a great job. And it does make quick work of the smaller stuff. Here a pic of my latest setup. I just built this mill a little while back. I have only used it a couple times now but it works great.

Thanks for sharing and its good to hear you're having fun cause that's what its all about. Happy Milling!

 

[Brmorgan]

I'm pretty sure that an 041 is turning a bit more than 7K wide-open. At least mine certainly sounds and acts like it is. Even my 090 turns ~8500 RPM.

 

[BobL]

I'm pretty sure that an 041 is turning a bit more than 7K wide-open. At least mine certainly sounds and acts like it is. Even my 090 turns ~8500 RPM.

The 041 has max power at 7k rpm, Max advertized power for the original 090 is only 6500 rpm, I'm not sure what it is for the current 090s. Both saws will rev higher but the power drops off. With a small saw like the 041 the power drops quicker so max cutting speed is achieved at at max power. With the 090 it doesn't matter anywhere near as much.

RE:Bob....Why is a heavier cut called a lucas Miller? Can you explain?

Lucas mills use a V-twin 14 - 30 HP engine with a lot more torque than chainsaw power heads so when using their slabbing attachment the raker depths can be dropped correspondingly. Cut finish will correspondingly be rougher. Even on a big chain saw the rakers can be dropped a long way for milling. For example Will Malloff in Chainsaw Lumber uses an 090 and recommends 0.045" bit as BMorgan says do not try this with new chain on a 60cc saw. I use a progressive raker depth so as the chain wears and the cutter gullet opens up I drop the raker height even more. Rather that repeat myself check out this post.

 

[Andrew96]

Bob...thanks for directing me to information regarding rakers...10-1 etc and explaining the millar as a type of mill. As I'm quite anal too...I'm going to go and do some measuring now to see if my current raker depth gauge compensates properly for my shorter cutters and still provide a 6 deg cut. I don't use a FOP. The profile of my rakers might produce the vibration I get with a used chain as I've always just left them flat topped. I never knew a chain porpoised during the cut. I've been using various guides to sharpen after a few maintenance sharpenings by hand, just to make sure my geometry has stayed correct. Time to revisit rakers though and make a calculation...see how it goes.
Through various searches and reading many posts...I found a carlton manual outlining proper chain sharpening. Should be required reading prior to gassing up. This is the first documentation I've found that is clear regarding rakers and older chain. My Dad just taught me to tune the rakers based on how it cut, by hand...by feel. Measurements work better for repeatablility.

 

[Andrew96]

I feel I've taken so much from this forum, I should put something back in. Attached is a photo of the old 041AV on the old mill. It's about to be retired now while I locate a bigger saw for use milling (my wife just loves you guys). The saw is in original condition paint wise. It will always be the first saw I ever cut with...along with the first saw I ever milled with. It just needs a good clean up, put the proper sized bar on it, and let it run occasionally. Though not as fancy as what you guys run, the mill works for me...and got me hooked.

 

[Nethercutt]

I just finished cleaning up, replacing a few parts, and tuning a 041AV, and put it up for sale on Craigslist.

Throughout the process, I found a few annoyances and design flaws with the saw:

- the plug is difficult to remove (the scrench gets caught up on the handle).
- the plug/wire is RIGHT in the way of getting stepped on when you start it on the ground.
- the AV model is vulnerable to strange throttle operation: they attached the carb to the main powerhead part, but the throttle trigger to the anti-vibration isolated handle. That means when you push down on the front handle bar, the throttle opens up, and when you pull up on the front handle, the throttle closes down. Usually not a big deal when sawing, because you're at WOT, but when at idle, this means that that pushing down on the front handle speeds the saw up, and gets the chain moving.
- there is a plastic plate, a spacer, AND a heat shield between the cylinder jug and the carb. That means 4 face-to-face gaskets between the carb and the intake port! Plan to have a air leak introduced at least once in the saw's life.
- the low-idle throttle stop adjustment screw is prone to self-adjust, and needs lock-tite to keep it in the right spot.

With all that said, once I got it running and tuned and started cutting, I have to admit that for whatever reason I fell in love with it. I've got a 25" bar on the thing and the saw ripped through a nice think oak with no problem. It's definately a different experience sawing with the 041 than with my 361.

Throughout the fix-up process, I really thought I'd be glad to get rid of the saw. In the end, I think I'm going to be sad to see it go!

 

[gr8scott72]

I just finished cleaning up, replacing a few parts, and tuning a 041AV, and put it up for sale on Craigslist.

Throughout the process, I found a few annoyances and design flaws with the saw:

- the plug is difficult to remove (the scrench gets caught up on the handle).
- the plug/wire is RIGHT in the way of getting stepped on when you start it on the ground.
- the AV model is vulnerable to strange throttle operation: they attached the carb to the main powerhead part, but the throttle trigger to the anti-vibration isolated handle. That means when you push down on the front handle bar, the throttle opens up, and when you pull up on the front handle, the throttle closes down. Usually not a big deal when sawing, because you're at WOT, but when at idle, this means that that pushing down on the front handle speeds the saw up, and gets the chain moving.
- there is a plastic plate, a spacer, AND a heat shield between the cylinder jug and the carb. That means 4 face-to-face gaskets between the carb and the intake port! Plan to have a air leak introduced at least once in the saw's life.
- the low-idle throttle stop adjustment screw is prone to self-adjust, and needs lock-tite to keep it in the right spot.

With all that said, once I got it running and tuned and started cutting, I have to admit that for whatever reason I fell in love with it. I've got a 25" bar on the thing and the saw ripped through a nice think oak with no problem. It's definately a different experience sawing with the 041 than with my 361.

Throughout the fix-up process, I really thought I'd be glad to get rid of the saw. In the end, I think I'm going to be sad to see it go!

If you want the most money for it, put it on ebay, not cl.

 

[Nethercutt]

For some reason, I don't like selling on Ebay. Maybe because they charge so many fees now...
And I like to run the saw with the new owner and see that they are happy with it before they buy it. I hate to sell something, and find out they are unhappy later.

 

[3.7]

Hey all,

I have to say I really love my 041AV it seems fast enough for the firewood cutting I do, so I really have no complaints there. I got this off craiglist a month ago, I paid $125 for it which I thought was a great deal, but I realize, thats pretty much what they cost...

It was very dirty but it started up and ran just fine, and it sounded really good at full throttle so I couldnt walk away from it.

I put it in wood and it just bogged down, I was disappointed, but I cleaned it up, adjusted the carb to stock settings and put a new spark plug in it and it cut through the same wood without any effort at all. For a 30 year old saw it looks like it will go another 30.

Also I love being able to go to the Stihl dealers around where I live and get misc. parts for it. Im going to put a 20" bar on it in preparation for a big Cherrywood tree that needs to come down, ants pretty much are eating it up and its falling apart a piece at a time, the thing looks like it will come down this winter and I would rather get a head start on clearing it away as its in my front lawn and I dont want to look at a fallen tree all winter long.

It still has some issues but it should be fun to fix up a piece at a time.