Heat/hot water and electricity from home sized boiler
- Thread starter zogger
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I talked with one of my best friends who is a retired Navy chief. He was a gas turbine technician while in the service for 20 years. He said he could build a small wood powered steam turbine with parts off the shelf from Menard's hooked into a turbocharger from a car. Excess pressure buildup would be relieved through a series of globe valves (I have no idea what those are). Said the biggest issue with a larger system is finding a turbine. So if he says it can be done that's good enough for me.
I gotta wonder if you guys are talking about TEC (thermoelectric cooling). It's how those in-car coolers work; the one's that plug into the 12V socket. It's based on the Peltier Device. Those things are still pretty expensive but I've messed around with two of those devices (got 'em cheap @ a hamfest; guy didn't know what he was selling). Each produced about 6V at 2A. I put two in series and got just over 12VDC and an amp just hitting one side with a blow dryer. With some creativity, thermal paste and some decent heat sink material (on the cold side), I bet you could interface a couple of those pucks to a boiler or woodstove and get some usable energy out of it. I think it only needs a 30* differential between hot and cold side to really put out some juice. Just google "peltier device" and start reading. Oh, by the way, you can use them in the inverse mode...feed 'em DC voltage and heat-sink properly and you get frost build-up on one side and killer heat on the opposite side. Oh yeah, the in-car cooler!
mike
mike
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
Even a steam heat system is not intended to build much pressure and has valves to make sure it doesn't. If you want to generate mechanical energy from steam you will need to build pressure.
If you convert some of your heat energy into mechanical energy, and from there to electrical energy, you ultimately still get the heat - you've just diverted the energy flow path, and all the energy still gets dissipated at the background temperature of the place where it is dissipated. But if your heat source is outside, then you have to transmit that energy into the living space. There will be a lot of losses in the conversions from thermal to mechanical to electrical, and the transmission, and if those conversions don't take place in the living space then that energy is lost to the outside. At the same time, trying to transfer the steam into the house would also entail a lot of losses (and risk, cost and complexity), so you'd be stuck losing some of your energy and have to burn more wood.
If you convert some of your heat energy into mechanical energy, and from there to electrical energy, you ultimately still get the heat - you've just diverted the energy flow path, and all the energy still gets dissipated at the background temperature of the place where it is dissipated. But if your heat source is outside, then you have to transmit that energy into the living space. There will be a lot of losses in the conversions from thermal to mechanical to electrical, and the transmission, and if those conversions don't take place in the living space then that energy is lost to the outside. At the same time, trying to transfer the steam into the house would also entail a lot of losses (and risk, cost and complexity), so you'd be stuck losing some of your energy and have to burn more wood.
Chris, you are right. Almost need two sections on a boiler, one to run standard low/no pressure h2o at 180 degrees or so and another pressurized system at over 212 with significant pressure if you want to generate power.
I know most people are thinking this system in the article is using a steam turbine but its not. This system uses a scroll expander to convert the steam energy into mechanical energy and ultimately spin the generator. Its actually a cleaver idea and would probably be practical for the general public vs a turbine. However, I believe personally like the idea of using a twin screw expander over the scroll expander. BTW, that company in the article isnt "breaking the ice" with a new product. There are several manufactures out there that are doing the same thing already but on a larger scale. Theres a reason this has not reached the size/scale for home use, its expensive and when it requires maintenance it will be beyond the ability of average joe.
Scroll compressor:
Twin screw expander:
Scroll compressor:
Twin screw expander:
zogger
Tree Freak
zogger
Tree Freak
Ya, I did some searching on that as well when I posted the link. I didn't know what the scroll expander was. I did not see the twin screw expander though, thanks for the links.
I did some product development in 3D CAD for a company that manufactures twin screw expanders. I modeled their largest one (600 hp) to be used as a generator. The process fluid was petrolum and they would be installed on the larg pipelines across the country to reclaim lost energy from the flow-back loops they used to control flow in the pipe lines (i.e. just a return loop of pipe that takes pump discharge and pipes it back to the intake of the pump to controll overall discharge flow). They are basically a large supercharger but instead of working as a compressor where energy is inputted to do work they are expanding a compressed fluid to give work in the form of turning a generator. Cool stuff, clasic rankine cycle thermo dynamics at play.
zogger
Tree Freak
That electrotherm unit looks real dang nice but again, the smallest is most likely way expensive and overkill for joe homeowner with a wood heat source application. You have to contact them for prices, meaning $$$$$$. That twin screw expander is a great invention.
The holy grail is something maybe around two grand, around there, some sort of ballpark. The joe homeowner competition is a normal whole house genny, propane or natgas fired. Not a little portable gasoline unit.
The holy grail is something maybe around two grand, around there, some sort of ballpark. The joe homeowner competition is a normal whole house genny, propane or natgas fired. Not a little portable gasoline unit.
lmbrman
stumped
zogger
Tree Freak
Getting closer! Now they need to throw a belt on that flywheel pulley groove and see what they can do with it.
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
@lmbrman , You weren't referring to these guys earlier were you? (Cyclone Technologies steam engine) http://www.cyclonepower.com
That is an interesting machine, I wonder what the power output is. Looks compact and complex.
zogger
Tree Freak
Whoop! That'll work! Wonder what the final retail price will be?
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Right now they have 3 sizes, a 25hp, a 100hp, and a 330hp but they are pretty scaleable and pretty adaptable to almost any application. The more I read about them the more interesting I find them. They have started working with OSUs CAR program and contracted with a machine shop to begin manufacturing in small numbers.
Dunno, I emailed them a while back about getting one to run on biogas to power a generator at work, never heard anything back from them. I don't think they were quite to that point yet, "retail" market that is...
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
Why would anyone want a boiler the size of a home?
damato333
ArboristSite Operative
I would like to hook up a cyclone steam engine to a wood boiler. Put a small building away from the house. Put the wood boiler, cyclone engine, and any other equipment needed to run it. I have no idea how much it would cost to set it up. I feel like it would be the same as solar panels, in 20 years you'll make your money back. I have a lot of wood and if I could make heat and electricity from it that would be awesome.
http://www.cyclonepower.com
http://www.cyclonepower.com
lmbrman
stumped
penz on the size of the house I guess
There are some public schools in WI that have wood fired boilers for heat and power, cant recall right now which districts, but several more that have wood boilers just for heat. Couple motels in MI UP heat with wood fired boilers too. Couple universities went to wood instead of coal.
Woodcutters are nuts you know!
-dave
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