Help Identify Mystery Conifer (big Pics)

[smithie55]

Judging by the first photo I would guess that tree was some where between 55 and 80 years old.
I know that with some species the bark can go through some major transformations with age.
The close up photos of the grain make me think it maybe a variety of Cypress, all though the bark doesn't necessarily support that.

 

[smithie55]

Found this picture of a Northern Hemlock
You guys maybe right.

 

[derwoodii]

could be cedrus...deodar or possibly atlantica

I reckon as above. Cut and smell the noodles, kerf. Cedrus deodar or Cedrus libani has a fragrant balm.

 

[guitarborist]

Did it come out of the woods or was it an urban tree? If it is an urban tree my guess is a Blue Spruce from the bark, the wood color and the large growth rings.

 

[Daninvan]

This one looks like it has pretty similar bark to me.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/126162/

Deodar cedar

 

[RPM]

Slice a cookie off of it and go up to UBC and see if they are running any summer forestry courses (Dendrology). Its been a long time since I went there so don't know who any of the new profs are, but someone in the Forestry Dept. would be able to find out who to talk to.

 

[Brmorgan]

That pic of the block with the bark removed really looks like Hemlock to me. For one, Hemlock bark does tend to come off rather easily like that. But then again, so do some of the True Firs. The other thing that sticks out to me is the small deep-purple-almost-black bark inclusions at the near side of the piece in the barkless photo, in the crotchwood where the big branch met the trunk. Hemlock is notorious for these blackish inclusions, and more often, black mineral streaks and lines in the wood which can be quite beautiful. Hemlock also tends to have very dark, almost black knots.

Rip that piece in half freehand with a saw and let's see what you've got in there!

Some gov.bc.ca info on Western Hemlock:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/treebook/westernhemlock.htm

Mystery wood .... With branches like that are you sure its a conifer? There doesn't seem to be a lot differentiation between the spring and summer wood on the growth rings?

This only goes to support the Hemlock theory IMO. The main reason that Hemlock is so favored for heavy-wear uses (flooring, stair treads, trim/molding, window and door frames, handrails and newel posts...) is that in addition to its being fairly hard, there is a comparatively small difference between the hardness and durability of the springwood vs. summerwood (known as an "even grain" in grading circles). If you were to put a Pine or D. Fir board down for a stair tread, in a few years you'll have very distinct ridges where the softer springwood has worn away leaving the harder summerwood proud from the surface of the board. With Hemlock this effect is significantly reduced.

As per the branch size, Hemlocks have what is called a "drooping leader" top due to the way their needles are arranged flatly on their branches. On Spruce, Pine, and Douglas Fir, the needles are radially arranged and can collect light from any direction, but Hemlocks, along with Yews and many Cedars etc., have needles arranged in a flat "spray" pattern and only collect light for photosynthesis effectively on one side. Thus, the top tends to droop over so it faces the sun. This makes these trees very susceptible to broken tops due to wind or heavy snow. If a top breaks out at a young enough age, the highest branch(es) will take over as the new top, as in most trees, sometimes resulting in some really gnarly tops and large and irregular limbs. Not saying that's the case here for sure though.

 

[rayvil01]

A friend gave me some Hemlock this past summer from West Virginia. It sure looks like your wood there.

Interesting wood. Save the scraps for starting the wood stove.

 

[RPM]

That pic of the block with the bark removed really looks like Hemlock to me. For one, Hemlock bark does tend to come off rather easily like that. But then again, so do some of the True Firs. The other thing that sticks out to me is the small deep-purple-almost-black bark inclusions at the near side of the piece in the barkless photo, in the crotchwood where the big branch met the trunk. Hemlock is notorious for these blackish inclusions, and more often, black mineral streaks and lines in the wood which can be quite beautiful. Hemlock also tends to have very dark, almost black knots.

Rip that piece in half freehand with a saw and let's see what you've got in there!

Some gov.bc.ca info on Western Hemlock:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/treebook/westernhemlock.htm



This only goes to support the Hemlock theory IMO. The main reason that Hemlock is so favored for heavy-wear uses (flooring, stair treads, trim/molding, window and door frames, handrails and newel posts...) is that in addition to its being fairly hard, there is a comparatively small difference between the hardness and durability of the springwood vs. summerwood (known as an "even grain" in grading circles). If you were to put a Pine or D. Fir board down for a stair tread, in a few years you'll have very distinct ridges where the softer springwood has worn away leaving the harder summerwood proud from the surface of the board. With Hemlock this effect is significantly reduced.

As per the branch size, Hemlocks have what is called a "drooping leader" top due to the way their needles are arranged flatly on their branches. On Spruce, Pine, and Douglas Fir, the needles are radially arranged and can collect light from any direction, but Hemlocks, along with Yews and many Cedars etc., have needles arranged in a flat "spray" pattern and only collect light for photosynthesis effectively on one side. Thus, the top tends to droop over so it faces the sun. This makes these trees very susceptible to broken tops due to wind or heavy snow. If a top breaks out at a young enough age, the highest branch(es) will take over as the new top, as in most trees, sometimes resulting in some really gnarly tops and large and irregular limbs. Not saying that's the case here for sure though.

Hemlock is still my first vote but the size of that limb is odd. I've seen lots of coastal old growth Doug-fir with limbs like that where the top has been blown off and another leader or side branch has taken off but htis one looks huge. And the size of the growth rings - its an urban tree so lots of water and fertilizer no doubt. I guess that is what is puting that bit of doubt in my head, but agian it is an urban tree.


For those not familiar with where we are talking about - the tree chunk in discussion is from Vancouver BC about a 100 miles north of Seattle.

 

[Daninvan]

Well I can sense a tidal wave of opinion for hemlock! But I am still not so sure.

I went down this morning and cut a piece up. It was disappointing inside with the rot extending further in than I had expected, plus some hidden knots that made the amount of useful wood so small as to be not worthwhile. Then it started raining, so I took that as as sign to snap a few pictures and head home.

Close up of the grain in the cut.

The wood has an amazing fragrance, strong and very pleasant. Mildly spicey, but with undercurrents of peach and mango. Sounds kind of like a wine tasting!

I have cut deodar cedar before and it sure smells like this one does. That is still my vote. I am hoping to head down Mon or Tue and go at a better (fewer knots) piece. It would be great to get a bunch of QS planks, with the aroma they would be perfect for drawer bottoms or the backs of cabinets.

I like the suggestion of taking a piece to UBC, and having them check it out, I will try to do that later in the week. Even if they can't give me a definitive answer, I am sure that they can at least tell me with confidence if it is hemlock or not.

Dan

 

[MGoodwin]

The limbs dont add up!

I will be honest, I havent read through all of the details, but the color of the heart wood and sap wood, bark thickness, and limb size, looks an awful like big leaf western maple. I cant think of too many trees that routinely carry limbs of that size relative to the trunk. Just a thought .

 

[Hddnis]

could be cedrus...deodar or possibly atlantica

I'll go with atlantica. I've cut many of them that had that exact bark, also several with the smoother bark. I don't know why some are rough and other smooth, but one row of twelve I cut was almost equally mixed. On another job there were twenty-one that all had the smoother bark.



Mr. HE

 

[Daninvan]

Well I was down there today cutting up one of the rounds into QS boards and a truck comes by to drop off some pine. I was talking to the guy and he says he was the one who took the big mystery conifer down from a yard in south Van.

And he said it was . . . (drum roll please) . . .deodar cedar.

Anyways I got all the deodar cedar I am likely to need for a while now!

Thanks to everyone who helped with the suggestions.

Dan

 

[RPM]

Well I was down there today cutting up one of the rounds into QS boards and a truck comes by to drop off some pine. I was talking to the guy and he says he was the one who took the big mystery conifer down from a yard in south Van.

And he said it was . . . (drum roll please) . . .deodar cedar.

Anyways I got all the deodar cedar I am likely to need for a while now!

Thanks to everyone who helped with the suggestions.

Dan

Hmmmm .... deodar cedar. Cedar ...??? I just looked at the trunk photos again (reason for the edit) and would not have ever guessed by the pictures and would have bet more beer that it wasn't. Forester I am .... urban forester not.

Nice to know though!

 

[Daninvan]

It was a tricky one to get.

The woods we call "cedar" in Canada and the US are not really true cedars (genus cedrus) at all. We are used to the typical strippy bark and flattened sprays for foliage on the trees we call cedar - yellow cedar, red cedar, Port Orford cedar, etc. These are not classified botanically as cedars, they are in other genuses.

The true cedars are only three - deodar, Atlas, and Lebanon.

Dan

 

[Brmorgan]

Glad you got it figured out. I've never even seen one of those trees other than in books etc., so I'm glad to have learned something too.

Our native Cedars are actually all Cypresses of one sort or another, along with the Junipers.

One thing I do know about the True Cedars is that their cones point upwards to the sky as well, just like the True Firs.

 

[RPM]

Forestry 101 - Dendrology all over again (about 20 yrs). I guess I have the blinders on when it comes to what a real cedar is. Right now cedar is red as in Western red cedar and whether or not it will make lumber, shake / shingle or poles. . Its the only species really paying the bills at the moment.

Glad you are able to score some lumber out of it rather than going to landfill or burn pile. Pictures?

 

[Hddnis]

Here's some pics of atlantica and deodara. You can see how close they are. The bark you have looks more like atlantica to me, but it does vary a bit.


cedrus atlantica

atlantica bark

atlantica cones

Mr. HE

 

[Hddnis]

cedrus deodara

deodara bark

deodara cones

Mr. HE

 

[Hddnis]

Here is hemlock, also very similar at least as far as the bark goes. The wood itself, in my experience, does not have a smell like cedar and is a bit lighter shade.

tsuga heterophylla

heterophylla bark

heterophylla cones

Mr. HE