Help me design my splitter!

[jags]

Very roughly. I would use as big as you can get within reason. i.e. 3hp for 11gpm 5hp for 16, and 20hp for 22gpm.

Again, if talking about electric, I agree with the 3 and 5hp but 20hp for a 22gpm pump??? That doesn't seem right to me. You can pull a 22gpm pump with an 11 (12 is better) hp engine. Even throwing a safety factor into it you would only need a 7 or 8hp electric.

 

[rx7145]

Again, if talking about electric, I agree with the 3 and 5hp but 20hp for a 22gpm pump??? That doesn't seem right to me. You can pull a 22gpm pump with an 11 (12 is better) hp engine. Even throwing a safety factor into it you would only need a 7 or 8hp electric.

I think the problem is (for me anyway) that no one has done this before with a two stage pump (that I know of). The pumps were made for use with gas engines with different hp and torque curves.

When I did my setup I saw the 2:1 number and it did seem right. I also saw (on here) that someone replaced a 5hp gas with a 2hp electric and It worked good. I wonder if as the pumps get bigger they have a different power ratio than a smaller pump (like a 11gpm). If anyone has any hard facts please chime in.

So for now its:

11gpm = 2hp (but why not go 3hp?)
16gpm = 5hp
22gpm = ?? ( 8hp to 10hp should work try it and let us know)
28GPM = ?????

 

[jags]

I wonder if as the pumps get bigger they have a different power ratio than a smaller pump (like a 11gpm). If anyone has any hard facts please chime in.

The biggest variable in the 2 stage pumps is the GPM that the first stage pumps and the "trigger" pressure to kick into the 2nd stage. The barns pumps are not consistent with their formulas from one size to the next. I would have to look up the specific numbers, but as an example, the 11gpm pump would have the small side of the pump at 2.5 gpm and kick in at 900 psi. Using the same formula the 22GPM pump "should" kick in at 4.84 gpm at 900 psi, but it doesn't mean thats how it was designed...it "could be" 5 or 6 or whatever they designed it at. Again, these are fictitious numbers, but I do know that they are not consistent from one size to the other.

This should be taken into account when sizing up motors, and I think it is more important with electric motors.

For an example of larger splitters with electric motors look up ramsplitter.

 

[rx7145]

VERY good point. I'm sure the second stage gpm is a big factor. If not the biggest factor.

The pump I have is from Cylinder Services Inc. I don't know what the gpm is of the second stage.

I looked at ramsplitter when I was looking at splitters. I read a lot of bad things about them and ended up not going with them. They use a 3hp motor with a 16gpm pump now that I think about it. I don't know how they get away with that? Maybe the pump they use is different? Smaller second stage?

 

[rx7145]

Well a quick update on my motor on my splitter. The overload was tripped. I was not pushing it hard enough. Took the motor all the way into the shop to have the guy "fix it" in two seconds. Oh well...

Also I have been searching for a ratio of gas hp to electric motor hp with no luck if any one has some info let me know.

 

[gink595]

Well a quick update on my motor on my splitter. The overload was tripped. I was not pushing it hard enough. Took the motor all the way into the shop to have the guy "fix it" in two seconds. Oh well...

Also I have been searching for a ratio of gas hp to electric motor hp with no luck if any one has some info let me know.

HAHAHA, I told ya...LOL Sometimes if you try resetting it right after it happens it is still to warm and won't reset, you have to wait for it to cool down. I have this happen to me all the time with that damn compressor in the winter months, the oil in the crank of the compressor is so thick that it really taxes the motor and the overload trips and then I have to wait to cool before it will let me reset it. Funny story man

 

[gink595]

I read somewhere (i'll see if I can find it) that a electric motor has 8-10 times the peak power of a gas rated motor. HP for HP, I found that hard to believe, but the reasoning was that a electric motor is rated at a constant HP and a gas motor is rated at peak HP. Of course a electric motor has a big spike at startup and then turns to a constant. I'll see what I can find.

 

[Bruce Hopf]

Electricity is not a problem, I live at a farm that has three buildings that are over 100' long. It used to be a big steer and milking operation. My wood pile now is on a 2 acre concrete pad where 220v is not scarce, there was three silage auger feeders that all used electric motors. So I won't be limited to extension lengths. I would prefer using a electric first and gas second, (I'm thinking Green,LOL) If I can't do both that okay, I can always plumb it to the Bobcat when electricity is not available when I'm in the field.

First of all, I'd forget the electric motor, and the gas engine. Being that you have that skid steer, that's where I would plumb it to with quick attach couplings. Build it also that you can hook it up to your 3 point hitch of your tractor, and be able to run it with the tractor.
This is how I built mine. Mine is hooked to the 3 point hitch, and plumbed with quick couplers, and runs off the hydraulic system of the tractor. I built mine so that is vertical.
The base platform is 3" high. I built a box frame 2' X 1' out of 1" x 2" plate steel. I then put a 1" steel deck over that. I installed a 4" x 8" x 3/8 walled x 4 1/2' I beam standing on edge on the top of the platform. I installed a piece of 4" x 16" x 1" plate steel om edge across the top, with a 1" hole bored through the side at one end of the plate, to mount my cylinder to.
I build my wedge, 12" long, and 4 " wide at the top and 12" high with a 1/4" late welded to that. I then made 2 spacers 3/8" x 1" x 12" flat bar, and put 3/8" x 1 1/2" x 12" flat bar, and drilled 6 holes down the edge of the bar to bolt and secure the wedge to the I beam, to go up, and down.
I then measured the lowest point of the hydraulic arms of the tractor, and welded a piece of 2"x 2" x 14" x 2 1/2' long with category 1 pins on either end.
I plumbed the valve so I can reach the control, If I need to work off of my knees, while handling big blocks if I'm splitting alone.
The real big blocks I just roll to the splitter, while the splitter set on the ground, and tip them onto the splitter platform, and let the splitter do the work.
Being hooked up to the 3 point hitch of the tractor, I can set it at what ever night I want to work at. This is my opinion any way. I take my splitter to the bush, and split all my wood there. Makes it nicer to work with for loading.
Hope this helps.
Bruce

 

[Bruce Hopf]

I'm wanting to build my first splitter, I've finally have more wood than I want to split by hand, but I plan to leave some rounds for anger management My question is I've been thinking of using an electric motor perferably wired for 220v, I have an old air compressor with a start and run motor on it I believe it is a 3hp, I would perfer to use this, would this be big enough, I know there is a difference between gas and electric outputs. Also would there be problem with duty cycle, I can see running this for several hours, I'm not wanting to get into overheating problems. Next question, how can I plumb this to run both (gas/elec. not at same time) Has anyone seen a setup where you could use one pump and be able switch...belt driven with pulley's??
As I'm at the begining stages of the thought process any input is greatly appreciated? Now I will return to reading the old posts.

I've just read your signature, Why would you want to screw around with electric motors, and gas engines, and hydraulic pumps when you have 2 machines you can plumb into. Your tractor, and skidsteer. Most hydraulic systems in tractors, run at 2200PSI, same with your skidsteer. Bruce.

 

[Zodiac45]

Good Post Gink and Good luck.

Why the 16gpm pump, do you already have one?
I think you'd be well served (and stay within budget) with an 11gpm 2 stage with a 4" cyl. In that scenerio you could use a 5hp gas and probably the 3hp leccie you already have? Thats what I've been using (5hp gas 11gpm 2 stage, 4"cyl) for the past 5 seasons and it still runs strong and I've not found anything that's stopped it. People will talk about cycle time being slower than the larger 16gpm but costs are lower and I rarely ever am using the full cycle. Most times I use a few inches back and and a couple forward. Sometims you'll get some stringy stuff that you need it all but that's not the norm.

PS: Assen this Sat, Go Rossi!

 

[gink595]

I've just read your signature, Why would you want to screw around with electric motors, and gas engines, and hydraulic pumps when you have 2 machines you can plumb into. Your tractor, and skidsteer. Most hydraulic systems in tractors, run at 2200PSI, same with your skidsteer. Bruce.

Yeah I do have the option of running the splitter off the tractor or skidsteer, and I have thought long and hard about it, but to me the extra hours added on a expensive to fix tractor or bobcat isn't worth it, for the extra 300 bucks for a little briggs and pump makes more sense than a 1000 dollar pump on the Bobcat. Plus the fact my Bobcat burns roughly 2 gal of diesel an hour at WOT, I know I would have enough power at idle and it might have to do for me this year until I can spend the money. So thats my reasoning behind not using the equipment, I just would rather use the equipment hours doing real work rather than being a 20,000 dollar hyd. pump. Maybe I'm just being to cautious and a worry wart, I don't know.LOL

 

[gink595]

Good Post Gink and Good luck.

Why the 16gpm pump, do you already have one?
I think you'd be well served (and stay within budget) with an 11gpm 2 stage with a 4" cyl. In that scenerio you could use a 5hp gas and probably the 3hp leccie you already have? Thats what I've been using (5hp gas 11gpm 2 stage, 4"cyl) for the past 5 seasons and it still runs strong and I've not found anything that's stopped it. People will talk about cycle time being slower than the larger 16gpm but costs are lower and I rarely ever am using the full cycle. Most times I use a few inches back and and a couple forward. Sometims you'll get some stringy stuff that you need it all but that's not the norm.

PS: Assen this Sat, Go Rossi!

No, I wasn't set on a 16gpm pump, but ya know bigger is better. I will probably go with 11 gpm and 4x24 cyl. because it is more in line with the power supplies I have. I'm glad to hear that you think it will perform just fine, I'm like you, cycle times aren't that important, within reason of course. But the stringy stuff, yeah I have a lot of that I bet 1/4 of my wood pile is American and Red Elm. But as Bruce mentioned I can always hook to the Bobcat for extra omph, if even needed.

Assen is always a fun race, we'll see. Thats a Colin track! Go #46!!

 

[gink595]

Also I have been searching for a ratio of gas hp to electric motor hp with no luck if any one has some info let me know.

Here check this place out, I didn't read all of of it yet but from what I did it sounds like a electric has about 60% more hp than a peak rated gasser. It said a 30 hp electric feels like a 50hp gas. So maybe that figure I mentioned in a earlier post may be reasonable.
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/18.htm

 

[rx7145]

Here check this place out, I didn't read all of of it yet but from what I did it sounds like a electric has about 60% more hp than a peak rated gasser. It said a 30 hp electric feels like a 50hp gas. So maybe that figure I mentioned in a earlier post may be reasonable.
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/18.htm

Good info. Thay are talking about DC motors though. Not sure what the difference is. One thing for sure is electric motors have more power than gas engines of the same Hp.

I'm going to put a presure gauge on my splitter and see what pressure my motor "stalls" at.

 

[gink595]

Well an update, today I went to town and went shopping, the first half of the day was worthless, either the places I went to didn't have squat or were just way to high compared to internet prices so me and a friend had a good lunch instead. During lunch another friend called and asked what I was doing so I explained the whole splitter idea to him, well after that he asked if there was a limit to how much HP a splitter could run and I said of course not, and then he offered me a 11.5 hp Industrial vertical shaft briggs motor for free. So I went and got it. So my plan changes again and I found a haldex pump at the local Rural king tonight for 75.00, It's listed as a 16 gpm 2 stage pump on the shelf, but for 75.00??? All the others I found today were between 159-189. So I'm beggining to wonder if this pump is correct. Does anyone have a link that I couldn't find with Haldex pump #'s to x-ref this number to? The pump model# is 110207. If not I will contact Haldex Monday and have it checked for the info I'm wanting.

 

[triptester]

The number you listed does not appear to be a Haldex/Barnes #. It could be a private label #. The pumps vary in length slightly for different gpm's.

Here is a pump site that gives dimensions.http://www.hbus.haldex.com/resources/documents/hi_lo_pg_rev1203.pdf

 

[rx7145]

$75 for a 16gpm pump? I would buy all they had and resell on ebay.

So is the electric motor idea out?

 

[MATTYB11]

Good info. Thay are talking about DC motors though. Not sure what the difference is. One thing for sure is electric motors have more power than gas engines of the same Hp.

I'm going to put a presure gauge on my splitter and see what pressure my motor "stalls" at.

I'm not sure but i thought DC motors were used in applications where the ability to change direction back and forth at the motor(clockwise, or counter clockwise)is needed. I have also heard that they generally have more torque than ac motors but I'm no expert.

 

[gink595]

The number you listed does not appear to be a Haldex/Barnes #. It could be a private label #. The pumps vary in length slightly for different gpm's.

Here is a pump site that gives dimensions.http://www.hbus.haldex.com/resources/documents/hi_lo_pg_rev1203.pdf

The numbers I got were right on the Haldex tag, but the chinese do some funny things! I'm going to bet that this unit is a speciality deal, Rurual King always buys extra surplus of things, so how knows where these pumps come from. The pump; on the suction side has a tube that comes out and makes a 90* bend built right into it. I'll probably have to call haldex and have them ref. it.

 

[gink595]

$75 for a 16gpm pump? I would buy all they had and resell on ebay.

So is the electric motor idea out?

Yeah the 75 bucks got my attention, both in a good way and bad. I just hope it is what it was as advertised. No the electric motor is definatly not out of the picture, I just wasn't expecting to end up with a free 11.5 gas motor so that makes things a little different. I'm going to talk to some of the local electrical suppliers and see what they might say for sizing, it looks like a 2 capacitor AC motor (start and run) is needed in these types of applications. A DC motor is a higher torque motor with better control capabilities, but then the you need a rectifier to convert the in coming line voltage from AC to DC. Unless the DC motors are prewired with one and maybe a step up/down transformer to get the correct voltage. Dc motors are really expensive also. Dc is not the way I'm looking to go.