Help with Bucking for Grade

[jpsheb]

Ok, I'm really trying to get familiar with proper log grading and I'd like to be able to buck a tree for the best overall value (correctly, and eventually quickly). I've generally made guesses with trees in the past, but here is my first attempt to carefully look at a stem and decide where to put the first cut. Since I'm planning on milling these myself, I use International Quarter Scale (IQS), although most mills I talk to deal in Doyle Scale, so I'll really need to think in both terms, depending on if I'm milling & want the more accurate number or whether I'm selling a load to the mill (sawlogs, veneer, & stave). I'd really like to you all experienced logging men's input!

THE TREE:
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Since it gets pretty knotty after the first 16-feet or so, I just want to focus on the butt log and making that first bucking cut the best one I can. The stripes (orange on one side & white on the other) are spaced at 4-feet each, with 6" of trim added to the butt (so the first stripe is 4'-6" from the butt).

The worst face has a 3.5" knot at 9.5' (Knot A), by the marks, or "BTM". It's circled in the 3rd picture. Otherwise, it's clear up to about 14' BTM (not enough to get a 5' clear cutting above the knot).
The second worst face has a 4" knot (Knot B) at 10.5' BTM, and is otherwise clear to about 14' BTM (not enough to get a 5' clear cutting above the knot)
The other two faces are clear up to about 14' BTM.

The diameter of the tree drops from 19" to 18" at Knot B on the second worst face. So, I my guess at the best options (please correct me if I'm way off!) are:
1.) Either make the cut at 10' BTM with a log diameter of 19". This is the minimum log length for a F1 log. The board-foot yield is 155-IQS / 141-Doyle
2.) Or make the cut at 12' BTM, with a log diameter of 18". This is the longest it can go and stay an F1 log (& still meet 5/6 log utilization). The board-foot yield is 170-IQS / 147-Doyle.

So my pick would be option 2 (for 6-doyle or 15-IQS more bdft), but in my lack of experience, I have no feel for what value I'm losing from the 2nd log on this (F2, 16" small end), and the difference in log price differences in grade 1 vs. grade 2.

Is this the cut you all would make your first, or would you keep it at 10' and only lose 6-bdft doyle at the mill...adding that much more to the next log?

Thanks!

 

[OregonSawyer]

I was never a logger but I was a Head-Sawyer for a period of years... Are you mainly cutting Pine? It's really gonna be different with each species that you come across.

I would say that the general rule of thumb is that you're gonna want to have an idea of the lengths that mills are looking for in advance. From their you can try to maximize value.

Example: Most Doug-Fir logs (that is all I ever cut/dealt with) come in a few primary lengths - 40' 36' some 32' and then just random scattered "shorts" (26' and shorter). For our particular mill we like to have some of the more "oddball" longer lengths because we cut a lot of longer items up to 52'. Therefore when we buy a timber sale and have control over what lengths that certain diameter and quality logs get bucked to we usually try to take advantage and get some of the lengths that are not as prevalent when buying an ordinary deck of logs.

I guess my advice would be that if you are looking at selling logs in the near future try asking around in your local area or even contacting log buyers from various mills to get a feel for what they specifically want. They might even be willing to meet you out where you're cutting and give you a hands-on idea of what it is they are looking for. Ultimately the best value you're going to get is when the logs are cut to specs that the mills are looking for.

I hope this was of some help although I didn't concisely answer your question.

 

[jpsheb]

I was never a logger but I was a Head-Sawyer for a period of years... Are you mainly cutting Pine? It's really gonna be different with each species that you come across.

Its a mix. Southern yellow pine is one of the major species (13-acres of 14-year-old planted pine, plus some scattered around over 60 more acres), but I also have a lot of tulip poplar, white oak, red oak, and hickory, with smaller quantities of eastern red cedar, sweet gum, winged elm, blackjack oak, cherry bark oak, willow oak, red maple, american beech, river birch, & maybe some cypress down in the bottomland swamp. The grades are all over the place, from chip and saw logs up to stave and veneer grade logs.

What kind of machinery did you use in hour head-sawing days?

 

[q-tip jr]

grade selections

I've been a chainsaw logger since about 1975- originally from Maine, worked in N.H. and Vermont too before winding up here in NC- presently in the Seagrove/Asheboro area. I have a pretty good grasp on what you're trying to do- real hard to advise with out seeing each tree, standing or felled. My own rule of thumb when bucking for value is "the longest log with the least amount of deducts" of course depending on what the mill wants too, once in Maine we spent a winter putting export logs up for overseas markets, metric units converted to feet and inches- had to keep a cheat sheet in my pocket and pull tape on everything, you mentioned milling yourself, I enjoy my Alaska mill when I can, let your projects dictate those lengths, and what you can handle. There's a guy in Mebane I can put you in touch with, can do a "show and tell" with you at the place he runs if you're interested....It's one of these things that is easier to show than describe.... I've worked that area a few spots, too pretty country - good luck contact me if you'd like

 

[jpsheb]

I've been a chainsaw logger since about 1975- originally from Maine, worked in N.H. and Vermont too before winding up here in NC- presently in the Seagrove/Asheboro area. I have a pretty good grasp on what you're trying to do- real hard to advise with out seeing each tree, standing or felled. My own rule of thumb when bucking for value is "the longest log with the least amount of deducts" of course depending on what the mill wants too, once in Maine we spent a winter putting export logs up for overseas markets, metric units converted to feet and inches- had to keep a cheat sheet in my pocket and pull tape on everything, you mentioned milling yourself, I enjoy my Alaska mill when I can, let your projects dictate those lengths, and what you can handle. There's a guy in Mebane I can put you in touch with, can do a "show and tell" with you at the place he runs if you're interested....It's one of these things that is easier to show than describe.... I've worked that area a few spots, too pretty country - good luck contact me if you'd like

Thanks, Q-tip! You close to Amicks? I'll PM with you regarding contacts.

 

[palogger]

when im marking out logs, i try to remember 3 things. keep them straight, keep knots on the ends of the logs, and dont be afraid to take a chunk out to make a better log. I have seen alot of guys make a 16 foot log that is clean, but looks more like a banana, and should have been made into 2 seperate 8 footers.

 

[hammerlogging]

you might enjoy and benefit from observing a little local logger working wood up on the landing, or standing along with a scaler at a local mill. A running conversation of wha they are seeing and thinking.

 

[DavdH]

You need grade logs to buck for grade, log grades and lumber grades are two different things. 30" diameter minimum 16' length surface clear seems pretty self explanatory, Your little pine log has defect problems that need sorted before you worry about grade.

 

[jpsheb]

when im marking out logs, i try to remember 3 things. keep them straight, keep knots on the ends of the logs, and dont be afraid to take a chunk out to make a better log. I have seen alot of guys make a 16 foot log that is clean, but looks more like a banana, and should have been made into 2 seperate 8 footers.

Thanks palogger. So maybe Ill just cut it @ 10'(+trim), which is just shy of the knot. Then I can chunk out the foot with the knot in it. In the end, I'll be cutting this log up myself--the upper logs will be cut into ties to serve as sills for building and the first log cut into 2x lumber. But I'm hoping if I step through it carefully, it can at least serve as an example on this site.

 

[Slamm]

you might enjoy and benefit from observing a little local logger working wood up on the landing, or standing along with a scaler at a local mill. A running conversation of wha they are seeing and thinking.

This is the advice I agree with. 30 minutes of time spent with a good, logger or log buyer marking logs will teach you more about logs and the lumber in them, than 10 hours on this website trying to figure it out.

There is an art or science to proper marking and bucking of logs for grade or use as a lumber product of some sort. You have to look at a log and its defects and work with or around those defects based on what market or use you have for that log and the "boards in it".

I'm to the point that I'm "marking" logs in my head of a tree as I'm walking up to it and felling it and limbing it, that way I'm not pulling out junk wood or lengths that I will later scrap at the landing, but to get to this point, we are talking about observing 1,000's and 1,000's of trees and logs, I don't say that as a brag, but to give an understanding of the length of time or the experience needed sometimes before some of these things are either picked up or understood in full, and to put into perspect why you can't or don't learn a lot of this stuff over the internet, you just can't, not that asking is a bother, just trying to help you understand the best approach to getting answers to your questions will likely be so knowledgeable person that you can meet face to face around some logs.

It takes awhile to learn this.

Sam

 

[OregonSawyer]

Its a mix. Southern yellow pine is one of the major species (13-acres of 14-year-old planted pine, plus some scattered around over 60 more acres), but I also have a lot of tulip poplar, white oak, red oak, and hickory, with smaller quantities of eastern red cedar, sweet gum, winged elm, blackjack oak, cherry bark oak, willow oak, red maple, american beech, river birch, & maybe some cypress down in the bottomland swamp. The grades are all over the place, from chip and saw logs up to stave and veneer grade logs.

What kind of machinery did you use in hour head-sawing days?

You'll have to excuse the poor quality of this pic. It was taken through a window. That log is about 3' on the small end to give you an idea. We have a 5 knee'd carriage that allows for the longer logs.

This will give you an idea of the size and product... These are all 10"-16" sidecuts (free of heart) ranging from about 18"-28" wide and a 36'-52' long.

 

[jpsheb]

This is the advice I agree with. 30 minutes of time spent with a good, logger or log buyer marking logs will teach you more about logs and the lumber in them, than 10 hours on this website trying to figure it out.

If it's a rainy today (should be), that's just what I'll do. Hopefully they won't be attending the farm and equipment show in Raleigh.

I agree with this sort of thing being an art and taking a while. As they say, "practice make permanent", so I juar want to make sure I'm moving in the right direction. Since I'm really learning the ropes of all this on my own, I have to be real pro-active in seeking out guidance. It's slow-going, but it's going, and that's what matters to me.

 

[Guido Salvage]

That is a big difference from my Frick 01 hand set mill...

 

[lmbrman]

I think some have mentioned this, but knowing your markets is just as important as cutting for grade, and good operators have to balance and weigh both factors(and more). Sorting different product takes time also, and wears equipment.


Being good at juggling these decisions helps

good for you to want to learn! It takes time, I know I still juggle daily.

 

[jpsheb]

14" Cants?

Was 14" your standard cant size for this saw, or did you vary it with batches?