Hemlock Forest 80% dead

[xtremetrees]

The WHA is headed this way. After killing over 80 % of Shandowa National Forest the bug is headed south. I live in the souther region of the Applichain trail.
I'm trying to find information about it's progress. I will be in conference with xtention agent that has given a presentation at a National Congress Convention I think. I will learn more about the bug and its progress and post it here.
Please post any new sightings there may be in your area.Also the % of damage by county.
Thanks:bang:

 

[Txtree]

Sky is falling? No way. Environmentalists are just claiming forest deaths but their science lacks true faith.

 

[Toddppm]

WHA?T? You mean the Hemlock Wooly Adelgid? HWA

I aint buying that, I visit the Shenandoah forest frequently and haven't seen that much devastation , in fact the last couple years the infestations seem to have slowed down and are much less frequent? Just my observations though.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Sky is falling? No way. Environmentalists are just claiming forest deaths but their science lacks true faith.

Backwards. Their faith lacks true science!

 

[xtremetrees]

I appreciate your replys.
Here is a Wangari Maathai a Kenya lady that has helped plant over 10 million trees. Once she was attacked just for planting trees.
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/wangarimaathai/p/wangari_maathai.htm
Oh, and heres the www.saveourhemlocks.org link

 

[appalachianarbo]

their science lacks true faith

Is science about faith? I always thought it was about empirical evidence...

Check out the Smokies if you doubt the HWA's devastation capability. We've done beetle releases and chemical treatments in high traffic areas for the National Park Service and Forest Service, but the area is just too big to get them all.

This listserve has some good professionals as members. They may have some info of interest to you...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HWAdelgid/

 

[xtremetrees]

Rock and Roll Asheville NC. Ya'll got some of the biggest trees I ever did crane. All your trees start @ 70 feet.! Every tree man there should use/have a 3 sectional Jamerson pole saw for re-directs.

BTW why high traffic areas? Were you releasing beetles to preserve the high traffic areas? Kool thanks for the reply. Oh and I joined the group. I know that insanity in the individual is rare but in groups , nations, and efforts its the rule. There is a science to faith. I call it imagination

 

[smokechase II]

I see from the http://www.saveourhemlocks.org/ site that this pest was introduced to the NW in the 1920's.
I'm not familiar with this critter. I thought what killed our hemlocks was just a root rot that expands slowly in circles and then fire.
Can anyone bring me up to speed on this bug in the NW?
Many of the hemlocks are higher elevation in Oregon and are a fairly neat tree. They grow most anywhere that is wettish and can have large diameters. 3 to 4 foot+ dbh is standard. It is also common to find a young tree growing on a stump or log. If the tree succeeds long term, the stump rots away and leaves unusual root art. Are the Eastern Hemlocks like that?

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Is science about faith? I always thought it was about empirical evidence...

Nah, that's just what they tell you in grade school. Turns out that science is done by ordinary people, some of whom aren't as bright as their degrees would lead one to believe, others have personal biases & agendas that get in the way of objectivity, and would you believe it? The almighty dollar (via grant money) so politicizes the process in some cases that it's very difficult to sort out what the truth is.

Occasionally, you'll find a scientist who is acquainted with the idea of intellectual honesty, and they'll admit this. For example:

“In seeking to understand why the Haeckelian view persisted so long, we have also to consider the alternatives. We often are highly conservative and will hold to a viewpoint longer than is justified when there is no alternative or, worse, when the logical alternative upsets the rest of our world view.”

Keith Stewart Thomson, “Marginalia Ontogeny and phylogeny recapitulated”, American Scientist Vol. 76, May-June 1988, p. 274




‘Research on the origin of life seems to be unique in that the conclusion has already been authoritatively accepted … . What remains to be done is to find the scenarios which describe the detailed mechanisms and processes by which this happened.

One must conclude that, contrary to the established and current wisdom a scenario describing the genesis of life on earth by chance and natural causes which can be accepted on the basis of fact and not faith has not yet been written.’

Yockey, H.P., A calculation of the probability of spontaneous biogenesis by information theory, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 67:377–398, 1977; quotes from pp. 379, 396.



‘One of the best ways of a person becoming aware of his tacit metaphysical assumptions is to be confronted by several other kinds. The first reaction is one of violent disturbance. Nevertheless if he will stay with it rather than escape into anger or unjustified rejection of contrary ideas … he becomes aware of the assumptive character of a great many previously unquestioned features of his own thinking.’

Bohm, Dr. David in ‘Towards a Theoretical Biology’ Ed. C.H. Waddington, Aldine Publishing Co. 1968



And empirical evidence? Read any scientific journals for any length of time and you'll find different groups of 'objective' scientists looking at the same empirical evidence and coming to wildly different - and incompatible - explanations.


“ ‘When paleontologists see Archaeopteryx, they see an earth-bound dinosaur that somehow mysteriously sprouted feathers for swatting insects or some other purpose, and they say flight originated from the ground up.’ Feduccia says. ‘However, when most ornithologists see Archaeopteryx, they see a flying bird because everything about feathers says flight to them. The conclusion we have drawn is that flight originated from trees down, which makes a lot more sense.’ ”

Alan Feduccia, Professor of biology at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, “News Notes”. Geotimes. April 1993: p. 6



Unfortunately, we've been so brainwashed about the supposed objectivity of "science", that we'll swallow just about any half-witted notion that comes along, if it is only wrapped in the hallowed robes of "science", no matter how weak - or non-existent - the evidence.

Global warming comes to mind...

 

[moss]

I see from the http://www.saveourhemlocks.org/...I'm not familiar with this critter. I thought what killed our hemlocks was just a root rot that expands slowly in circles and then fire.
Can anyone bring me up to speed on this bug in the NW?
Many of the hemlocks are higher elevation in Oregon and are a fairly neat tree. They grow most anywhere that is wettish and can have large diameters. 3 to 4 foot+ dbh is standard. It is also common to find a young tree growing on a stump or log. If the tree succeeds long term, the stump rots away and leaves unusual root art. Are the Eastern Hemlocks like that?

Western Hemlock is not as vulnerable to Wooly Adelgid as Eastern Hemlock. The bug has devastated and is still demolishing all hemlock in its path in the northeast. It is a quiet ecodisaster. It's really sad seeing magnificent groves reduced to nothing in 5 years. The only thing limiting its movement further north into interior New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont are longer periods of extreme cold during the winter. It's going to be interesting to see what replaces hemlocks on the northern sides of hills where they used to thrive in eastern Massachusets.

I have no idea what the side thread about scientists is all about, the adelgid is a serious threat, period. After you've looked at hundreds of dead and dying hemlocks you'll get the idea.

SmokechaseII, Eastern Hemlock is similar in its growth habits to what you describe for Western Hemlock.
-moss

 

[appalachianarbo]

We released in high traffic areas 1) because they were easier to access (trails), and 2) because the trees are a large reason people come to the park, and if the trees they see are dead, tourism will decline

 

[xtremetrees]

Appalachian dont rub against the boughs of the hemlocks you could get a hitchhiker or two.

Smoke I started my climbing carreer on those 4 foot monsters. It is important to climb the rigging side so you dont have to pull all that rope up when starting to rapell down.

Blueridge mark: The conclusion we have drawn is that flight originated from trees down, which makes a lot more sense.’ ” I think that sence we've found lucy the ape and that she had to walk to another tree to climb 3 million years ago? that spiritual awakenings are of the slow educational variety, that very few get the flash of bolt of lightening Something did happen that unleashed the power of our imagination and we began to talk" Stephen Hawkins and to dominate the species of man thus easily making homosapien the kings. I'm sure that biogeneticist and the like have already surpassed eons of our evolution.

Moss I can see how it would be sad. Xtreme cold slows it down". Meteriologist say xtreme cold predictions this year, and worse hurrican's next year.

 

[smokechase II]

Moss:
I suspected there must be some native hemlock resistance out here.
I know that planting Asian Hemlocks in the NE would be inappropriate. (We've screwed things up enough by moving living things across oceans.)
Is it worth considering Western US Hemlocks for the NE, if everything else fails?

 

[MPR2154]

Check out the pic...It's a little tough to avoid rubbing the limbs! Most of the area around here already has an infestation, so picking up a hitchhiker wouldn't be too devastating. We were caeful though...

This picture is in Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest in Nantahala National Forest

 

[MPR2154]

appalachianarbo is now MPR2154...

Another picture from Joyce Kilmer. This is one of the 'hammocks' we set up to give the beetles a take-off point

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Blueridge mark: The conclusion we have drawn is that flight originated from trees down, which makes a lot more sense.’ ” I think that sence we've found lucy the ape and that she had to walk to another tree to climb 3 million years ago? that spiritual awakenings are of the slow educational variety, that very few get the flash of bolt of lightening Something did happen that unleashed the power of our imagination and we began to talk" Stephen Hawkins and to dominate the species of man thus easily making homosapien the kings. I'm sure that biogeneticist and the like have already surpassed eons of our evolution.

The point of the post is that "objective scientists" often look at the same data and come to radically differnent conclusions, based NOT solely on the data, but on their preconceptions as well. Most don't recognize that; only a few of those who recognize it will admit it.

 

[xtremetrees]

Whada call me Mark
Heres some roped logs to ponder

 

[xtremetrees]

Dude is that the fly I see? Howda like those pics. Man That one kool hammock the bugs launch from. Applachan whydid ya change your name dude great pics and great efforts. Thanks from us all bro.

 

[MPR2154]

Yup...that's the fly. I don't use the bowline termination knot anymore, though. Now I use the double overhand. I changed my name cause I don't work for that company anymore. Each of those buckets cost about $4000. That's about $2 per beetle, without labor!

 

[xtremetrees]

Ive been on the blakes but started ont he TLH. Thats alot of cash for the bugs. Ive heard they were expensive. In the pic is that the adelgid (white cottony layers) on the limbs of the hemlock. I've never actually seen either bug to be honest.Why is the bug so hard to grow over here? They are from Asia correct?
My fly got sawed up removing 7- 35 inch sweetgums in a back yard in August.