Hobby Farm & Logging Priorities.

[northmanlogging]

Reminds me of the career logger who's son I worked with.
Over 45 years in the woods & the guy doesn't know how to tune a chainsaw. Like not even the first idea.. He fell a few trees for the neighbors & GOOD LOOORD the stumps are absolutely insane!! GOL no doubt.
I'll have to get some pictures.
Kinda bummed me out since I was not around to take the reins.

I have an ankle story as well.
I remember the morning that I stumbled upon the MOTHERLOAD of OG Ginseng plants. Roots the size of hotdogs!
Got so excited that I forgot how to do things with my legs & rolled my left ankle running off of a log. The "boss" was within earshot so I was hustling. Well, the fall ended my work day & my horticultural bonanza.

Years later I split that ankle joint apart (Maisonneuve fracture) & had a nice long recovery period. I sat for weeks & weeks with a soft cast & no drugs before being operated on due to swelling. No drugs because I lived alone & was a "fall risk". If I didn't have a pain tolerance I'd have probably assaulted the healthcare people.
Since then I've not rolled my left ankle once, which is a stark contrast from the days subsequent to the Ginseng incident. I could roll that ankle on flat ground.
Something was wrong with that ankle for a long time... The recovery time also fixed my knee that I had done something horrible to while skiing.

drive a self loader for a few weeks, you'll run into every "best logger ever with 300 years experience" one guy spread a load of rock no more then 1" deep across 5" of mud, with a shikain a geo metro would have trouble fitting through, told me he's been building roads for 35 years... took me 6 hours and a new reach for the log trailer to get out of that one

Buddy of mine just had surgery on his ankle, turns out every time he thought he had sprained it, was actually a fracture... and the poor bones had said F u dude were done, had some groovy abscesses and missing tissue, I should give him a call... I was going to send him some adult diapers cause his apartment is tiny and the bathroom is upstairs... I should probably still do that...

 

[056kid]

Typical day. A discussion on approach to felling "compromised" maple with taps and a hollow. This one started with me wanting to show the differences between running a 562 vs. 572 in these maples where the sap is just pouring out and the chips plus sap jams up the B&C. Ended up somewhere else. But the concept is sound. I'll do another someday with just a set of clips. I have around 50 like this first tree, one with a 572 another 562.

Watched the vid.
How familiar are you with the wood? Have you chaired many logs? Lost them off of the stump? Witnessed or caused bad things?
If you're comfortable with less face & less bore cutting, I'd say go there. Maple of all types is not high on my "it's gonna chair.." list. With that said, you could ditch the butt log side of the face without much detriment. With the size of hinge you had on the first tree, you could scratch out 15⁰ of face & not have any problems.
What I would do is saw a deeper gun cut as low as a narrower humboldt would allow & then saw the back.
For the 2nd tree, begin a gun cut & saw out the compression side until the stem starts to sit, put the face in, & saw the back up leaving wood on the pull side. AKA a swing dutchman.
Both of those scenarios have time & quality in focus. So there isn't much value in quickness for you I don't rekon. However, being able to carry out such techniques only means a good understanding of the wood, & that equates to a safer environment.
I know you like to bore cut to keep you away from the stump, but there is positively no reason for bore cutting the 2nd tree. Just back cut it & get a wedge in as soon as possible.

Disclaimer: it's dangerous...
Go out & wreck some wood trees. Barberchair stuff on purpose, or at least try to. Maybe you already have the experience, but the methodry in the vid says maybe not enough. As I mentioned, maple isn't too fussy for the most part. Nothing like clear white oak.

As a cutter of both saw logs & pulpwood, I would every now & then encounter a predicament where I needed to finish a load of wood before quitting. Only problem being that what I was sending to the landing would go into the log pile. Normally that's fine, but sometimes a guy has to push back a little bit against the slave driving. So I'd chair the heck out of a hand full of stems & go home.

I enjoyed the vid by the way. Be safe

 

[weimedog]

Watched the vid.
How familiar are you with the wood? Have you chaired many logs? Lost them off of the stump? Witnessed or caused bad things?
If you're comfortable with less face & less bore cutting, I'd say go there. Maple of all types is not high on my "it's gonna chair.." list. With that said, you could ditch the butt log side of the face without much detriment. With the size of hinge you had on the first tree, you could scratch out 15⁰ of face & not have any problems.
What I would do is saw a deeper gun cut as low as a narrower humboldt would allow & then saw the back.
For the 2nd tree, begin a gun cut & saw out the compression side until the stem starts to sit, put the face in, & saw the back up leaving wood on the pull side. AKA a swing dutchman.
Both of those scenarios have time & quality in focus. So there isn't much value in quickness for you I don't rekon. However, being able to carry out such techniques only means a good understanding of the wood, & that equates to a safer environment.
I know you like to bore cut to keep you away from the stump, but there is positively no reason for bore cutting the 2nd tree. Just back cut it & get a wedge in as soon as possible.

Disclaimer: it's dangerous...
Go out & wreck some wood trees. Barberchair stuff on purpose, or at least try to. Maybe you already have the experience, but the methodry in the vid says maybe not enough. As I mentioned, maple isn't too fussy for the most part. Nothing like clear white oak.

As a cutter of both saw logs & pulpwood, I would every now & then encounter a predicament where I needed to finish a load of wood before quitting. Only problem being that what I was sending to the landing would go into the log pile. Normally that's fine, but sometimes a guy has to push back a little bit against the slave driving. So I'd chair the heck out of a hand full of stems & go home.

I enjoyed the vid by the way. Be safe

On the ash & maple in that area have over 20 years & countless tree of that goofy stuff.

And true on the second tree as it leaned back. Have to admit on that one I wasn't sure which way it was going to go as there was a bit of weight in the right direct, so hedged bets and it paid off. My biggest fear on that one was the integrity of the wood. Was some rot and I didn't know how much until the saw was in the wood. Which was the point, lowest common denominator.

Actually have played the changing the face cut angle a lot, and put it on video. The Ash is easy to 'chair & actually can be difficult Not to have pulls. And that was what had me go to ever larger face cuts, even bore cutting a third of the hinge to eliminate the nasty stuff on the ash. Rarely see a barber chair on the maple. Usually break pretty clean and usually don't need as much. BUT did a "research" video a while back and actually caught one trying to barber chair when I left a little too much hinge.
NEXT job I have a bunch of dead ash and beech. Will do a series of up close video on those tree's is the plan, keep pushing the envelope with the face cuts to push for the lousy results, but safely where I'm not in the way. ( Different face cuts & angles but still bore cut & nip the hold wood so I can exit quick and let the camera do the work recording ) On those older maples the thing I react to more than the good or bad related to the hinge , but the stuff that almost always comes crashing down from above. Have been almost impaled and smashed way more than I want to think about. SO that drives the priority often anymore. Along with shorter stumps when i have space and time to design and cut a good hinge. Also to get as much wood out of the tree, kind of "terrain follow" with the cuts and do that with what I feel is enough face cut angle to break clean with no pulls... why the "bird mouth" on the first one.

BTW Thankyou for the feed back, good stuff

 

[weimedog]

If your handlebar gets in the way, try using it like a pivot just as you would the dawgs. You'll have less leverage, but the saw will feed.

As for the locals,
Tell them that they can't miss what they don't know. There is no reason to run a 20" bar unless you're physically unable to tote the weight. If that's the case you're probably not cut out for the F&B. The first outfit I cut for provided the saws. I spent more than enough time behind a 20" bar to know that it's absurdity on all accounts. Especially when bucking big leads off of big hardwoods & having to be balls deep all of the time.
I've never passed up an opportunity to make the more outspoken game of logging guys around me look like clowns. Slooow clowns..
The sanctimony vanishes when they realize that their ideas are all bunk.
For some reason, they all think that a modern pro saw isn't powerful enough to pull anything more than 24" in their hardwood. As if GOL practices are ever contingent on a fast cutting saw, lol.
Next up is the notion that hardwoods can't be backcut straight-up. If you send everything down the mountain, maybe. If you counter natural lean with a hinge, no (obviously!) Guess what! Most east coasters dump everything down the hill.. Might as well just stumpjump if you're letting nature take the lead.
I'd have to say that I have more respect for the stumpjumpers than the GOLers. They get more production, even if the woods look like a category 5 hurricane did the cutting..
Maybe I'm just ignorant. After all, I've never attended a GOL seminar. My boss back then knew better. Probably thought I'd cause a scene haha.

Actually do both, but for the "video" I try to do lowest common denominator stuff. Also being a one man show often where no one has a clue where I a a mile off the road, I've tended towards slower and something I can both predict and understand, SO progressed FROM chasing to bore cut, trigger wood. I have some video of me high stepping out from under what was supposed to be an easy fall with an easy tip over, with chit falling everywhere. Also often being my own wood or at least my own job, I'm no longer as time pressured. Think this way, as a large land owner now, I get 100 percent of the wood sale. No percentage. When I cut on someone else's land its a percentage, 40 or 50 depending on the PITA factor, When I worked for someone else I got a percent of a percent. When I had my excavation business and had to clear cut, it was all about speed. And the carnage was fixed with a dozer or excavator Things and priorities change with circumstance.

 

[weimedog]

If your handlebar gets in the way, try using it like a pivot just as you would the dawgs. You'll have less leverage, but the saw will feed.
contingent on a fast cutting saw, lol.
Next up is the notion that hardwoods can't be backcut straight-up. If you send everything down the mountain, maybe. If you counter natural lean with a hinge, no (obviously!) Guess what! Most east coasters dump everything down the hill.. Might as well just stumpjump if you're letting nature take the lead.
I'd have to say that I have more respect for the stumpjumpers than the GOLers. They get more production, even if the woods look like a category 5 hurricane did the cutting..

Not "On target" clips, but a mix of trigger & chase and a few "hindsight is better than foresight" moments. Not really comfortable to put all for everyone to see, I use these at times to remember how I got to where I am Great to spin conversation off from too I guess.

Yup to the "Next up is the notion that hardwoods can't be backcut straight-up. If you send everything down the mountain, maybe. If you counter natural lean with a hinge, no (obviously!)" Me? I do both, If I KNOW I'll bore cut out the back like always and cut to a hinge with no wedge. Then snip and go. If I have even the slightest doubt, I bore cut right out the back, set a wedge, cut to the hinge, pull out the saw and then decide when to snip and run. Or snip then hammer.

 

[056kid]

Not "On target" clips, but a mix of trigger & chase and a few "hindsight is better than foresight" moments. Not really comfortable to put all for everyone to see, I use these at times to remember how I got to where I am Great to spin conversation off from too I guess.

Yup to the "Next up is the notion that hardwoods can't be backcut straight-up. If you send everything down the mountain, maybe. If you counter natural lean with a hinge, no (obviously!)" Me? I do both, If I KNOW I'll bore cut out the back like always and cut to a hinge with no wedge. Then snip and go. If I have even the slightest doubt, I bore cut right out the back, set a wedge, cut to the hinge, pull out the saw and then decide when to snip and run. Or snip then hammer.

I understand the aspect of safety. In timber with a lot of falling junk, I'd much prefer to wedge sans bore cutting. The sawing up of the "trigger" can be a jolt more than potent enough to knock stuff loose. With a standard back cut, you can really ease things up & over.

Have you tried a nice deep face on ash? Deep as in half way into the stem, 50% of the diameter. Of course the deeper you go the more wood the 2nd face cut requires.
Get deep enough & barberchair becomes impossible. The back will explode or twist before it opens up & that's in big evergreen stuff.
I'd mess around with GOL hires by betting them that I could fall a tree with one cut.
Start out front, cut/ream until the front closes & roll on straight through to the back until there's nothing left. It's fun to freak people out..
Cut some really nice hickory (if there's such a thing) over west of Robbinsville NC that with the sap up, butts, 2nd runs, etc would check within moments of being cut. The only way to prevent it was to do as I just outlined, except with a scarf cut out of the front. Stumpjumping, only exaggerated. I've seen bigass leaning hickories hold on the stump with a tiny tiny amount of wood left. 32" diameter with the bottom of a cigarette pack sized post holding itall. Sure it's probably scoffed at by hinge purists, but sometimes bucking them off of the stump just plain old kicks ass! Amazingly strong, stringy stuff that I have made some spectacular messes with.
That same tract had a poplar thst the foresters measured out at 163' tall. Those particular trees were in the center of a big draw & none were more than about 26"-28" diameter. Stove pipes though. Cut a redoak that's first run (33') almost took a johndeere 750 dozer down the mountain.
Should've taken more pictures of what was probably some of the best timber being cut east of the Cascades. Oh well.

 

[northmanlogging]

just to poke the dogs...

 

[weimedog]

I understand the aspect of safety. In timber with a lot of falling junk, I'd much prefer to wedge sans bore cutting. The sawing up of the "trigger" can be a jolt more than potent enough to knock stuff loose. With a standard back cut, you can really ease things up & over.

Have you tried a nice deep face on ash? Deep as in half way into the stem, 50% of the diameter. Of course the deeper you go the more wood the 2nd face cut requires.
Get deep enough & barberchair becomes impossible. The back will explode or twist before it opens up & that's in big evergreen stuff.
I'd mess around with GOL hires by betting them that I could fall a tree with one cut.
Start out front, cut/ream until the front closes & roll on straight through to the back until there's nothing left. It's fun to freak people out..
Cut some really nice hickory (if there's such a thing) over west of Robbinsville NC that with the sap up, butts, 2nd runs, etc would check within moments of being cut. The only way to prevent it was to do as I just outlined, except with a scarf cut out of the front. Stumpjumping, only exaggerated. I've seen bigass leaning hickories hold on the stump with a tiny tiny amount of wood left. 32" diameter with the bottom of a cigarette pack sized post holding itall. Sure it's probably scoffed at by hinge purists, but sometimes bucking them off of the stump just plain old kicks ass Amazingly strong, stringy stuff!
That same tract had a poplar thst the foresters measured out at 163' tall. Those particular trees were in the center of a big draw & none were more than about 26"-28" diameter. Stove pipes though. Cut a redoak that's first run (33") almost took a johndeer 750 dozer down the mountain.
Should've taken more pictures of what was probably some of the best timber being cut east of the Cascades. Oh well.

First thank you for putting some thoughts out there.

The one thing I need folks to do is as you and one other fellow do, try to design an approach from the information and experience you have, vs. try to bend an approach to rationalize things

Yup went back and forth on that one. So now a hinge in the root flare works. And that's the point I have a procedure that works why would I change it unless I can make it easier or safer. Some of those pics will give u a sense of the wood. The key to ash is getting the hinge to break before it can pull. AND if you have to accept a pull, have it where it doesn't matter, in the trim wood. With the trigger I can decide when the scramble start. I heard the "snap" thing. I put a camera close up over and over on the ones where the speculation would be about that. Never saw it effect the hinge . Ever. Another point on cutting low as possible...hard to look up and cut real time when your saw is 4 inches off the ground. The bore cut to leave trigger wood for me gives me the time to set up a good hinge design, one where experience tells u the tree will go where you want with no pulls. Take knowing your wood and how to design a hinge. I stick a wedge in just in case when the trigger is cut, the tree doesn't move. OFTEN on a heavy lean tree to a side it WON'T go. And the wedges are required. I've got to the point I can cut real low, almost terrain follow. And still get a hinge to do what I want which leaves the last point. When I know from experience, (heavy leans for example) it's going to need a little persuasion, The distance from the hinge to the wedge is the length of the lever and does effect the "leverage" a wedge has. But the point is I evolved into a system that works well and safely. Most importantly a system that makes it easier for me to build a hinge and the let thing fly allowed for a more planned egress It work. I often set out from under and have the time to even pick a camera to film the tree going over...I left one in like that in those sample. No way in hell I'm going to a system that works best cutting waist high so I loose all that tree or forces me to stay under the "falling debris" zone waiting to a tree to move fast enough while real time adjusting a hinge. been then not doing that again. To your point, funny thing on ask is the "heart" is the stringiest. So I endeavor to make any likely pull to be out of the heart. Often need to move a tree to a different fall direct and need enough hinge and enough leverage to do that. SO what I do works. Well for me. I WILL do some demonstration video of different angles and hinge locations just so folks can see.. I have some old pics from several years ago whenI was still chasing tree's but had figured out the hinge thing on ash. You watch how nervous folks get when they see these pics.

This was in the cut it like pine days and I needed a pretty fast saw to get around the tree to actually get a good hinge. Also would bore cut the heart and u can see why. It worked. I would have just enough hinge to direct, not enough to pull. BUT when I was working that way I would have the cut height were I could watch UP while cutting because if things started moving and stuff dropping I was out of there! Eventually went to a longer bar obvious as to why.

 

[weimedog]

just to poke the dogs...

Love it ! Proves the point for pulls, my god the thing lost a foot or more with the small hinge, it didn't matter on that tree, but does on money trees. Also most of what we cut you have to have the cut on the ground not waist even for that guy chest high. Funny video though. I've done MORE than my share of excavator & dozer felling

 

[northmanlogging]

Love it ! Proves the point for pulls, my god the thing lost a foot or more with the small hinge, it didn't matter on that tree, but does on money trees. Also most of what we cut you have to have the cut on the ground not waist even for that guy chest high. Funny video though. I've done MORE than my share of excavator & dozer felling

If fiber pull was a concern (I did mention this garbage is going for firewood right) I probably would have bored the guts. and besides its only lose a couple inches to fiber pull.
they are paying I think $150 per 1000 scribner at the moment, a full load wouldn't even cover trucking, the pulp mill doesn't even want it.

 

[northmanlogging]

Love it ! Proves the point for pulls, my god the thing lost a foot or more with the small hinge, it didn't matter on that tree, but does on money trees. Also most of what we cut you have to have the cut on the ground not waist even for that guy chest high. Funny video though. I've done MORE than my share of excavator & dozer felling

the pull yer seeing is from a little sucker I broke off with the excavator, its actually about 3' behind the stump... it never even met a chainsaw...

 

[weimedog]

This was a "research" cut a few years back now. Still chased it, and kept opening the face to see if I could BOTH cut low and not have a pull..... the first couple were pulled bad so I went back to the stuff I had been doing for years, bore cutting the hinge some. IF I had a taller stump, often I could get the hinge to break. A "sacrificial" tree. Lost some but not as much as if I did the "inverse" on the face cut But wanted to see how low I could get. This was one attempt And interestingly enough I had moved the hinge BACK into the tree. You can see the results. I'll post a later tree, with the hinge in the root flare.
View attachment pulls.mp4

 

[weimedog]

If fiber pull was a concern (I did mention this garbage is going for firewood right) I probably would have bored the guts. and besides its only lose a couple inches to fiber pull.
they are paying I think $150 per 1000 scribner at the moment, a full load wouldn't even cover trucking, the pulp mill doesn't even want it.

Ash is just nasty with pull, especially towards the center of the tree. Maple can be, but often just breaks clean around 60 degree's AND bore cutting solves a lot of that, for decades I used to get chit for bore cutting from the front to reduce the ability for the hinge to form a pull. And often when it did, it was in trim wood after I was done

 

[weimedog]

Here is one from a couple years back, I had left trigger wood so I could build a hinge with out it moving, Had to wedge it because of the lean to the right side. In this one I had both bore cut the 1/3 of the hinge in the middle and moved the hinge BACK out towards the root flare so most was in the trim wood. Still in "evolution" I think on those one. Was trying to respond to the push for more of the base of the tree in the final saw log. Part of the goal here was to get the hinge to break before the hinge closed, no pulls that way, And it did. Twisted off and still broke. SO this was more successful than the last and I went more that way for that felling season. Worked out well as it was ALL ash. After these went to smaller face cuts on the maple unless I had a lot of root flare to play with.
View attachment AshNoPull.mp4

 

[northmanlogging]

the thing about fiber pull, it only matters on a veneer log or if its really bad.

granted its one more thing certain scalers will deduct for (because they are crooks)
however, each species of tree has a face opening that can hurt or hinder fiber pull, sometimes, and more often then not a big wide open face causes more pull, unless you leave very little hold wood. But a shallow face at the right ratio will cause the hold wood to shear rather then pull, Western hemlock likes a more open face, where Doug Fir wants a fairly shallow face (hemlock wants more hold wood, and doug fir doesn't need much at all)
Alder here really likes to have the guts bored, or lots of face to close on, where our maples are fine with little face.
Cotton weeds seem to like a block face, but they don't tend to pull fiber at all, though somewhere I'm in a vid where one fell about 45deg and just stopped cold on the face, no pull, no shear, just stopped... it should have at least chaired but nope, made me wade back into nipple deep black berries and cut it off the rest of the way..

 

[056kid]

Not "On target" clips, but a mix of trigger & chase and a few "hindsight is better than foresight" moments. Not really comfortable to put all for everyone to see, I use these at times to remember how I got to where I am Great to spin conversation off from too I guess.

Yup to the "Next up is the notion that hardwoods can't be backcut straight-up. If you send everything down the mountain, maybe. If you counter natural lean with a hinge, no (obviously!)" Me? I do both, If I KNOW I'll bore cut out the back like always and cut to a hinge with no wedge. Then snip and go. If I have even the slightest doubt, I bore cut right out the back, set a wedge, cut to the hinge, pull out the saw and then decide when to snip and run. Or snip then hammer.

Very cool video! My opinion on this deal is that optimally, your faces close up prior to canopy interference & the hinges about half as stout. You'll get trees rolling off of standing timber & your hinges will break clean. You have close to an ideal scenario for doing as you wish. Thanks for posting.

 

[056kid]

If I can cut them like this, I do.

Pretty rudimentary. About as much so as it gets short of bucking them off of the stump.
More holding wood will be used if deemed necessary. Frankly the east coast stuff is pretty easy to lay out without the necessity of hitting the lay just right. Nobody's ever had to sideslip the butt to save out.
This medium sized pine saved out to the top & took little time to kill.

Don't mind the ********** cap & the overall casual appearance. The casual nature of that day was the reason I decided to try my hand at cinematography, I had the time..View attachment IMG_0017.MP4

 

[weimedog]

If I can cut them like this, I do.

Pretty rudimentary. About as much so as it gets short of bucking them off of the stump.
More holding wood will be used if deemed necessary. Frankly the east coast stuff is pretty easy to lay out without the necessity of hitting the lay just right. Nobody's ever had to sideslip the butt to save out.
This medium sized pine saved out to the top & took little time to kill.

Don't mind the ********** cap & the overall casual appearance. The casual nature of that day was the reason I decided to try my hand at cinematography, I had the time..View attachment 1076124

Great video,. That was fast, and that tree moved pretty quick as well, just not as fast as you! Sometimes I can get a tree that has the favorable lean. Usually they lean up hill where I've been cutting, and lay them down either straight down if I can or cross hill to where I can hook on with the winch. It's just how the hill and road are along with me not liking to have them go up hill on a slope as they like to hop back. I'll see if I can get a closeup of a similar. Just no way I could pull that off in my wood and get out fast enough. Maybe 20 years ago. Why I like to setup the hinge then clip and go. I think another point that demonstrates, is to get the hinge to that point, you have to have a very fast saw and/or softer wood. Leaving some hold wood allows me to cut to a hinge defined by me before the tree begins to move.

I guess another point I really never was able to get a good video on was IF I had to "jack" the tree up and over, I would leave more hinge than I normally would like to be sure it could hold along with as much back cut for "leverage" as I thought I get. True in theory in that scenario you don't need hold wood, let the tree sit on a wedge and cut until the hinge is "right". over the years I went to actually leaving MORE hold wood and spend a little more time in setup while the tree was stable. Get a couple of wedges in. That one little video where there was a thick hinge that wanted to shear up into the tree vs down into the stump was that "back lean" case. Leaned back into the hill, I wanted to have it go 180 degree's different and left more hinge and hold wood ( more than needed In retrospect ) as on some of those maples the butts were rotted some. Turned out that one was really strong and gave me a cool video demonstrating what happens with too much hinge.

 

[056kid]

A nice example of a dutchman. You can see where the stem came all the way around into face by the markings on the edge of the 2nd cut. You can also see where I whacked about 1 3/4" out of the back of the face (where the hinge is). That can make a big difference from a kerf width where the 2 face cuts meet. Same speed as the Eastern White Pine video.

 

[Hundred Acre Wood]

I've never passed up an opportunity to make the more outspoken game of logging guys around me look like clowns. Slooow clowns..
The sanctimony vanishes when they realize that their ideas are all bunk.

I choose to cut slower because it's safer for me. I don't consider myself a slow clown. Being a one man operation, cutting only for myself, I have the luxury of going slow.

I understand not everyone has that luxury, but there's nothing wrong with taking your time if you can. Telling someone that "their ideas are all bunk" isn't really helping anyone be safer.