Hollow basswood
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Kneejerk Bombas
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Are you going to tell me that by removing 5%, 10%, or even 20%, that the tree in question will be made safe enough to insure it won't fail?
And the bigger question, what I think we are discussing here, is will a hazard tree, with 5-20% of it's foliage removed be safer in the long run?
I say absolutely not! All you are doing is starting the removal process, and putting your self at risk, during however many years you spread the removal over.
And the bigger question, what I think we are discussing here, is will a hazard tree, with 5-20% of it's foliage removed be safer in the long run?
I say absolutely not! All you are doing is starting the removal process, and putting your self at risk, during however many years you spread the removal over.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
And you say this based on...waht? Some diatribe form a guy so fat he can't get into a tree in the first place?
When you show you're aware of Gilman and Brudi's work we'll have something to talk about. Sheesh!
Gopher
ArboristSite Operative
Picture missing
I now have a picture. I am unqualified to enter it (I'll have my wife do it tonight.
We really don't need a picture, though.
Something needs to be done. The limits being: nothing (which almost always happens because many homeowners ignore htese issues no matter how hard we try, and removal, which I think we can stave off for a number of years by doing some remediation.
All other trash talk can stop.
I thank all of you for looking at all angles.
Gopher
I now have a picture. I am unqualified to enter it (I'll have my wife do it tonight.
We really don't need a picture, though.
Something needs to be done. The limits being: nothing (which almost always happens because many homeowners ignore htese issues no matter how hard we try, and removal, which I think we can stave off for a number of years by doing some remediation.
All other trash talk can stop.
I thank all of you for looking at all angles.
Gopher
Gopher
ArboristSite Operative
Removal now Mike?
Are you suggesting removal now, Mike?
I am not against this answer. It is a very safe one, but I don't believe the owner of this tree will do it. We have already pointed out the risks, and if there is some way I can MINIMIZE these risks, then that is what I will do.
Is doing any crown pruning going to reduce this risk?
Well, Look at the extensive work done on the then "Wye Oak" in Maryland. There was over 3500 feet of cable in that tree, and yes, the limbs were reduced over the road , so that in case of failure, the limbs would fall within the fence line.
I think we can safely say that we CAN make a difference, but that we must be strong insaying there is a time limit on any measures taken. For this tree owner, if we can get another 8 to 10 years out of the tree, that is about all he'll need.
People management is what it is all about. Really. Cast the trees aside; people is where it's at. If the owner of this place was 28 years old, I probably would say, "We are dealing with a basswood here which is close to the end of it's useful life. I suggest removal, and transplanting suitable species in here of some size to replace it." However, the owner is not 28 (he's in his late 60's), so the answer has to reflect this. Yes, I know the tree is the same, but how we represent the answer and what risks are involved are different.
Will I have him sign anything if I do indeed do some canopy work? I'm not sure yet. My first thought is, "Yes", but I really don't know yet. I do plenty of pruning in similar situations and rarely have the customer sign waivers. One step at a time. If nothing else, I'll use all of our discussion as support that I really didn't intend to provide a miracle here.
Gopher
Are you suggesting removal now, Mike?
I am not against this answer. It is a very safe one, but I don't believe the owner of this tree will do it. We have already pointed out the risks, and if there is some way I can MINIMIZE these risks, then that is what I will do.
Is doing any crown pruning going to reduce this risk?
Well, Look at the extensive work done on the then "Wye Oak" in Maryland. There was over 3500 feet of cable in that tree, and yes, the limbs were reduced over the road , so that in case of failure, the limbs would fall within the fence line.
I think we can safely say that we CAN make a difference, but that we must be strong insaying there is a time limit on any measures taken. For this tree owner, if we can get another 8 to 10 years out of the tree, that is about all he'll need.
People management is what it is all about. Really. Cast the trees aside; people is where it's at. If the owner of this place was 28 years old, I probably would say, "We are dealing with a basswood here which is close to the end of it's useful life. I suggest removal, and transplanting suitable species in here of some size to replace it." However, the owner is not 28 (he's in his late 60's), so the answer has to reflect this. Yes, I know the tree is the same, but how we represent the answer and what risks are involved are different.
Will I have him sign anything if I do indeed do some canopy work? I'm not sure yet. My first thought is, "Yes", but I really don't know yet. I do plenty of pruning in similar situations and rarely have the customer sign waivers. One step at a time. If nothing else, I'll use all of our discussion as support that I really didn't intend to provide a miracle here.
Gopher
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Re: Picture missing
All other trash talk can stop.
-----
Oops, sorry. The anti-pruning zealotry got the best of me.
AS far as going to court for practicing arboriculture, doubtful if ANSI and other standards are followed and no written promises are made. Thanks for the concern, though.
The odds of getting sued for recommending nothing are greater. Courts call it neglect.
Thanks for troubling with the picture, Gopher.
Just reduced a 40" dbh, 80' white oak this morning that has minor defects at the base an sprawled badly. 37 cuts (the customer counted) with polesaw--no 2-cycle for me this morning!
Took~200 minutes.
Natural symmetry restored and safety greatly increased. the cable might come out of the toolbag if the defects get worse. For now and the foreseeable, customer happy, tree happy, me happy--you happy?:angel:
I took b&a pictures, I'll take Gopher's lead and ask my wife to help post. Again sorry for trash, that party had insulted me on another forum and I lost my cool. Not a good thing for a climber to do.
All other trash talk can stop.
-----
Oops, sorry. The anti-pruning zealotry got the best of me.
AS far as going to court for practicing arboriculture, doubtful if ANSI and other standards are followed and no written promises are made. Thanks for the concern, though.
The odds of getting sued for recommending nothing are greater. Courts call it neglect.
Thanks for troubling with the picture, Gopher.
Just reduced a 40" dbh, 80' white oak this morning that has minor defects at the base an sprawled badly. 37 cuts (the customer counted) with polesaw--no 2-cycle for me this morning!
Took~200 minutes.
Natural symmetry restored and safety greatly increased. the cable might come out of the toolbag if the defects get worse. For now and the foreseeable, customer happy, tree happy, me happy--you happy?:angel:
I took b&a pictures, I'll take Gopher's lead and ask my wife to help post. Again sorry for trash, that party had insulted me on another forum and I lost my cool. Not a good thing for a climber to do.
Kneejerk Bombas
ArboristSite King
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I have seen Gilman in person, speaking on the subject of co-dominance training and trimming in genral, on several occasions. I also read the Brudi's papers in the link Treetx gave us.
I don't disagree with one word from either man.
But to go from:" the top of a tree has the most leverage"(Brudi) and "Drop crotch pruning can be done to subordinate co-dominant limbs"(Gilman), to: removing foliage from the top of a hollow stressed tree will make it safer in the long run(Guy), is not using data correctly.
Nowhere in those studies is the effect of foliage loss on a hollow, stressed tree calculated in.
Gopher asks:
"Are you suggesting removal now, Mike?"
No, I have not seen the tree. I haven't even been told about the growth increments for the last ten years or so. I think you said it was hollow at about 50%, which doesn't even make me think it's an increased risk, much less a hazard. But I haven't seen it, so I can't make a call either way.
But like I already said in this thread:
"If you could do it, I would recommend climbing up the tree and ADDING limbs. Since you can't do exactly that, why not use a tree support system to make it safer and while you wait, do some work on the soil, which will add to the canopy?" This could also improve the tree's health, about the only thing Guy and I agree on in this thread.
I don't disagree with one word from either man.
But to go from:" the top of a tree has the most leverage"(Brudi) and "Drop crotch pruning can be done to subordinate co-dominant limbs"(Gilman), to: removing foliage from the top of a hollow stressed tree will make it safer in the long run(Guy), is not using data correctly.
Nowhere in those studies is the effect of foliage loss on a hollow, stressed tree calculated in.
Gopher asks:
"Are you suggesting removal now, Mike?"
No, I have not seen the tree. I haven't even been told about the growth increments for the last ten years or so. I think you said it was hollow at about 50%, which doesn't even make me think it's an increased risk, much less a hazard. But I haven't seen it, so I can't make a call either way.
But like I already said in this thread:
"If you could do it, I would recommend climbing up the tree and ADDING limbs. Since you can't do exactly that, why not use a tree support system to make it safer and while you wait, do some work on the soil, which will add to the canopy?" This could also improve the tree's health, about the only thing Guy and I agree on in this thread.
Gopher
ArboristSite Operative
Soil work
Hey, now you're talking! Soil work - right up my alley.
First off, the tree is at least 70% hollow, not 50%, but that still leaves us with somewhere in the vicinity of 40to 50% original strength using the stright cylinder formula's.
Yes, some soil mitigation on the leeward side is possible. There is a row of columnar arborvitae about three or four feet away to the west (under tree). The root flare appears to be in good condition. The effective root zone of the entire tree is not ideal - part of it is raised parking, and the attached garage is about 15 feet away to the east.
Stabilizing the entire tree may be an option, but since it is so close to the property line, I don't know if this will come to fruition. And of course, the neighbors up the hill can't stand their view of the lake being blocked by this tree, and the owners now somewhat taller re-built house (remember, the place was demolished by another tree 8 years ago.) So, many of the neighbors want this tree gone. Always something poloitical to cloud issues.
Back to the tree. I will be talking to my client tomorrow (Saturday), and I will be asking him some questions about the adjoining property (I believe it is an outlot - fire truck acces to water, perhaps) and what space there is available for guying the tree.
Have a good weekend all. Lots of work for the Gopher man (keeps my teeth clean!)
Gopher
Hey, now you're talking! Soil work - right up my alley.
First off, the tree is at least 70% hollow, not 50%, but that still leaves us with somewhere in the vicinity of 40to 50% original strength using the stright cylinder formula's.
Yes, some soil mitigation on the leeward side is possible. There is a row of columnar arborvitae about three or four feet away to the west (under tree). The root flare appears to be in good condition. The effective root zone of the entire tree is not ideal - part of it is raised parking, and the attached garage is about 15 feet away to the east.
Stabilizing the entire tree may be an option, but since it is so close to the property line, I don't know if this will come to fruition. And of course, the neighbors up the hill can't stand their view of the lake being blocked by this tree, and the owners now somewhat taller re-built house (remember, the place was demolished by another tree 8 years ago.) So, many of the neighbors want this tree gone. Always something poloitical to cloud issues.
Back to the tree. I will be talking to my client tomorrow (Saturday), and I will be asking him some questions about the adjoining property (I believe it is an outlot - fire truck acces to water, perhaps) and what space there is available for guying the tree.
Have a good weekend all. Lots of work for the Gopher man (keeps my teeth
clean!)Gopher
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
It's too bad you have chosen the John Paul "anything can be fixed by cutting off the lower limbs and even more can be fixed by removing top limbs too" Sanborn way of hazard reduction.
And of course all Mike does is deadwooding and removals (obligatory John:Mike sarcasm)
Much of this was covered by others so i will try not to be too redundant.
Can this adventitious growth soon become more of a wind sail than before the trimming?
This is tree management, basswood will always put on tall vertical spouts. Regular cycles of pruning to keep it where it needs to be, maybe some Cambistat.
Will these reserves come at the expense of not laying down new wood over the decay?
perhaps for one year, maybe the soil work and judiciouse watering can help too.
Is a crown reduction or topping the tree a short term fix?
obviously, it is managing the tree unto it's death. This tree would need auxillary support similar to the what Russ Carlson recomended for the Freedom Poplar (??) a few years ago if it were to do any good. a steel frame that coulkd support the entire tree incase of failure. That would be over doing it, jsut a bit.
Will you make any money if you do nothing?
And what is the problem with making money. I've told people that they don't need any tree work before, and I've heard Dave do it too. Where does all this handwringing come from? "We don't know for sure, so we should do nothing!"
Hazard mitigation does not eliminate risk of failure. Only removal can give this guarentee.
Removal of termal growth can effect root development, so application of root stimulant may be recomended.
What it this with removal too? Just as with doing nothing it is an option that we can give the client. One thing I like about Dave is that he does give the client several options to go with when he renders his proffesional opinion (and i know he agonized about giving only the removal option due to his concern with the major defect.)
He tells people what he can do for them, offers the science behind it, and maybe some other opinions that are in the industry. Often he will start with "The tree is eventually going to have to come down." Some times he will qualify that statement with "which is what i would be most comfortable with." or "I don't think that is really nessesary at this time."
Yes, cutting live wood is wounding the tree. No the tree does not know the best way to grow. It operates on what is most productive at the termall end durring that growth season and the relationship between roots and H2O availability. That's a gross over simplification, but so what.
And of course all Mike does is deadwooding and removals (obligatory John:Mike sarcasm)
Much of this was covered by others so i will try not to be too redundant.
Can this adventitious growth soon become more of a wind sail than before the trimming?
This is tree management, basswood will always put on tall vertical spouts. Regular cycles of pruning to keep it where it needs to be, maybe some Cambistat.
Will these reserves come at the expense of not laying down new wood over the decay?
perhaps for one year, maybe the soil work and judiciouse watering can help too.
Is a crown reduction or topping the tree a short term fix?
obviously, it is managing the tree unto it's death. This tree would need auxillary support similar to the what Russ Carlson recomended for the Freedom Poplar (??) a few years ago if it were to do any good. a steel frame that coulkd support the entire tree incase of failure. That would be over doing it, jsut a bit.
Will you make any money if you do nothing?
And what is the problem with making money. I've told people that they don't need any tree work before, and I've heard Dave do it too. Where does all this handwringing come from? "We don't know for sure, so we should do nothing!"
Hazard mitigation does not eliminate risk of failure. Only removal can give this guarentee.
Removal of termal growth can effect root development, so application of root stimulant may be recomended.
What it this with removal too? Just as with doing nothing it is an option that we can give the client. One thing I like about Dave is that he does give the client several options to go with when he renders his proffesional opinion (and i know he agonized about giving only the removal option due to his concern with the major defect.)
He tells people what he can do for them, offers the science behind it, and maybe some other opinions that are in the industry. Often he will start with "The tree is eventually going to have to come down." Some times he will qualify that statement with "which is what i would be most comfortable with." or "I don't think that is really nessesary at this time."
Yes, cutting live wood is wounding the tree. No the tree does not know the best way to grow. It operates on what is most productive at the termall end durring that growth season and the relationship between roots and H2O availability. That's a gross over simplification, but so what.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
buy hey, Mike, that's a start!Originally posted by Mike Maas
But to go ...to: "removing foliage from the top of a hollow stressed tree will make it safer in the long run"(Guy), is not using data correctly.
Pg. 213 of Gilman's Pruning book: "Consider canopy reduction...on a large tree that has substantial decay."
Your point about measuring grwoth increments is a good one, but I'm not sure it would change the Rx for this tree.
"do some work on the soil, which will add to the canopy?" This could also improve the tree's health, about the only thing Guy and I agree on in this thread.
The conflict seems to originate from where we keep our tools. Gopher and I don't lean on twig rowth as an indicator as much as you do. Maybe we should look at that more. I keep cabling in the bottom corner of the toolbox and the pruning saw on top while you may have that reversed.
The good news is, we both look at soil conditions early and closely. On the rest, maybe by hearing others' approaches we'll learn to moderate our own. I'll be cabling more on decayed leads on a veteran holly next week (after reduction) than I may have after hearing others' experience.
Next month I'll see Russ talk about that Liberty Tree, and I'll try my best to quash my preservationism and really hear why he prescribed removal. At the same place (MAC-ISA), I'll be yammering about heading cuts on damaged trees. Leave the rotten tomatoes at home, if you would, I'll have my good suit on.
Look at the editorial in the last Arbor Age mag--which while it is not chockfull of hot info, it is worth at least the price!
and see what the ANSI guy says about cuts to small laterals. We all learn more when we look beyond the Cliffs Notes versions of tree science.Gopher
ArboristSite Operative
New twist now...
OK, so I revisited the "hollow basswood guy" this morning. First, I did some soil amendment to his white oak near the lake, determined that the company that planted his spruce this spring did an awful job (it has now lost all of this year's growth - no alteration of the burlap or basket, none.)
Then we looked again at the basswood. I explained to him all of the options and theories behind them, and then he had a question for me. He asked, "What if I used a wood preservative inside the cavity?" He then told me he did it about twenty years ago on this very tree. He also said he was surprised when I got on a stool and showed him the extent of the decay. Anyway, I said the thought sounds good, but I would be concerned about the effects on the live tissue and cell production.
Well? Is there any merit to this consideration? I am going to do some canopy mitigation this fall, and soil amendment as well. A good portion of the root system is passively used (perennials).
This is the same guy who has been trying to lower the pH arouns the white oak using a series of injection sites (pvc tubes) in the soil in a ring around the root zone. He is quite innovative with his tree care approach. Let me know what the ramifications are behind the wood preservative thought.
Well, I'm going out to add some TGR to my "almost gone" white oak. The town decided not to take it when raod work was done, so now I'll convince my wife that I'm going to dump "experimental dollars" into it!
Take care everyone.
Gopher
OK, so I revisited the "hollow basswood guy" this morning. First, I did some soil amendment to his white oak near the lake, determined that the company that planted his spruce this spring did an awful job (it has now lost all of this year's growth - no alteration of the burlap or basket, none.)
Then we looked again at the basswood. I explained to him all of the options and theories behind them, and then he had a question for me. He asked, "What if I used a wood preservative inside the cavity?" He then told me he did it about twenty years ago on this very tree. He also said he was surprised when I got on a stool and showed him the extent of the decay. Anyway, I said the thought sounds good, but I would be concerned about the effects on the live tissue and cell production.
Well? Is there any merit to this consideration? I am going to do some canopy mitigation this fall, and soil amendment as well. A good portion of the root system is passively used (perennials).
This is the same guy who has been trying to lower the pH arouns the white oak using a series of injection sites (pvc tubes) in the soil in a ring around the root zone. He is quite innovative with his tree care approach. Let me know what the ramifications are behind the wood preservative thought.
Well, I'm going out to add some TGR to my "almost gone" white oak. The town decided not to take it when raod work was done, so now I'll convince my wife that I'm going to dump "experimental dollars" into it!
Take care everyone.
Gopher
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Re: New twist now...
Originally posted by Gopher
"What if I used a wood preservative inside the cavity?" He then told me he did it about twenty years ago on this very tree.
What did he use? Turpentine?
He also said he was surprised when I got on a stool and showed him the extent of the decay.
Does he remember how rotted it was 20 yrs. ago? the hollowing since then means his try didn't work, but it doesn't mean the idea has no merit at all.
Anyway, I said the thought sounds good, but I would be concerned about the effects on the live tissue and cell production.
What cells are being produced inside the cavity? Not sure there's much to lose by experimenting here.
A good portion of the root system is passively used (perennials).
What kind? Some ground orchids are symbiotic with oaks, and elderberry planted near elms can help them ward off DED (research from England I read--don't ask for ref; forgot.) It might be interesting to see what grows on the ground near healthy basswood in the forest and transplant some. Known associates can have a good influence.
And on the misplanted spruce--how deep was it put in? Will the misplanters replace, or refund the installation cost? Client has learned not to trust tree work to non-arborists, let's hope.
Gopher
ArboristSite Operative
arborists rule
He is convinced.
The spruce is a replacement for the Concolor fir the nursery planted last year. Neither of them should have been planted on the site.
Soil pH is 7.7. The phosphorus is off the charts high, and so is the potassium.
Oh, yes it was in the ground too far, the burlap not altered, nor the wire. Just thee ole, "Dump and Run" it looks like to me.
Ah, what fun. Now I will have two of the local landscapers pissed at me! I have to say though, the other one actually let me on to a property his crew was working to get the tops out of 4 Robinia for him. I told his crew it won't be the last time he's ticked at me.
Actually, sometimes, I have to admit, it's kind-of fun to ruffle a few feathers!
Taco's anyone? It's time to chow! Thanks everyone. Next time I'll give a little more notice as to the dinner fare.
Gopher
He is convinced.
The spruce is a replacement for the Concolor fir the nursery planted last year. Neither of them should have been planted on the site.
Soil pH is 7.7. The phosphorus is off the charts high, and so is the potassium.
Oh, yes it was in the ground too far, the burlap not altered, nor the wire. Just thee ole, "Dump and Run" it looks like to me.
Ah, what fun. Now I will have two of the local landscapers pissed at me! I have to say though, the other one actually let me on to a property his crew was working to get the tops out of 4 Robinia for him. I told his crew it won't be the last time he's ticked at me.
Actually, sometimes, I have to admit, it's kind-of fun to ruffle a few feathers!
Taco's anyone? It's time to chow! Thanks everyone. Next time I'll give a little more notice as to the dinner fare.
Gopher
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
I wondered when the ever popular, three times a year pole saw thread would come up
Do you find it difficult to make good target pruning cuts with a
pole saw
Often it's hard, sometimes it's impossible.
If tips are being reduced from the ground, try using a pole pruner to reduce the ends. Then you could have the customer use the pole pruner as a nipper to hold the rest of the branch while the pole saw is used to make the collar cut. With care, the number of stub/rips can be almost eliminated.
I've used my 14' three legged ladder to get me higher too.
Tom
Do you find it difficult to make good target pruning cuts with a
pole saw
Often it's hard, sometimes it's impossible.
If tips are being reduced from the ground, try using a pole pruner to reduce the ends. Then you could have the customer use the pole pruner as a nipper to hold the rest of the branch while the pole saw is used to make the collar cut. With care, the number of stub/rips can be almost eliminated.
I've used my 14' three legged ladder to get me higher too.
Tom
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Absolutely true, start by doing all you can from the ground. But the cuts I was making yesterday were 40'-60' up.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
The last day I worke with Guy this past winter I turned around and saw this little 59 year old guy shimmying 30 ft up a 60* lateral to get a better tie-in. That aint in my repritoir.
Guy Meilleur
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hey if I lack your reach, strength, rigging knowhow and leverage I gotta make up for that with a little agility, (not near as much as the squirrel, but enough to make up for some of my deficieancies), and most important willingness to lean way back, dig in the toes and trust the rope.
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