Horse logging article from Boston Globe

[horseloger]

I beg too differ I have logged in the north east on wet soil with horse when no machinery was allow to operate and Missouri has some of the most stringent clear water rules in effect but we operate every day in the spring !And the comment that slowp said was that they logged an area that was too wet for the machinery because they could!
And again tell me you can operate your machinery for 400.00 per month! As I stated before the reason you half too tear the woods up is that you have too make all them payments! I'm not throughing rocks I am stating facts! And I reiterate a machine that is 11 ft wide and 40,000 pounds is going to impact the forest no matter how wide the tracts! My horses are only 4 foot wide and 4200 lbs!
Horse logging is not about production or being green Its about leaving the forest in better shape than when you found it. If we do not we wont have good timber left that our children and grand children can utilize. Why do you think craftsmen will pay the high dollar they do to get old growth timber? Its because we have harvested the woodlands so hard and destroyed most of the good jean stock that was out there by our slash logging practices of the past That there is very few places that you can find good timber is a testament too that!

 

[horseloger]

BY the way lumberjkchamp nice picks you can sure move a lot of wood with a scoot like that

 

[joesawer]

The whole foot print psi and ground compaction argument is flawed from the start.
Yes a tracked log skidder may only have 7 psi when sitting on flat ground with every inch if the track placed evenly on the ground. In other words that is the minimum footprint psi it can ever have under perfect conditions.
On the other hand what do you think the psi is when it is pulling a maximum turn and it is on its back idlers.
Often the full weight of the machine and its turn and a good bit of horsepower are compacting a few square inches.
Yes a hoof might weigh 400 pound at rest but the downward psi from it will spike much higher while skidding logs.
No machine has the ability to transfer the psi and forward torque as efficiently as a horse or mule or bull.

It is my opinion that ground compaction is nearly a worthless argument anywhere that the ground freezes. Think about it real hard.
Root damage, ruts and regeneration damage on the other hand are much longer lasting damage.

I also have never seen a horse logger trying to compete with mechanized logging on volume. It has a narrow niche that iron cant fill.

 

[slowp]

An interesting side note. Weyco has done studies comparing seedling growth between trees planted in compacted skid trails and trees in uncompacted soils. The trees planted in the skid trails were impacted for one or two years. After that, the roots grew out into the non compacted area and growth was equal to that of the neighboring seedlings.

I still like yarders the best.

 

[forestryworks]

Skid trails are good for pine regeneration.

 

[LumberjkChamp]

BY the way lumberjkchamp nice picks you can sure move a lot of wood with a scoot like that

Not my pics. Mike Van's (a little further up in the thread.) I quoted them in my post to make sure that it was obvious that I was appreciative of them being posted. I agree, they are very nice. Sorry for the mishap.

 

[gink595]

Skidding logs with horses definatly leaves less of a impact, I've been around both, skidder trails are alot smaller too. I'm not against either and dont' care either way but thought the comment about Horses leaving a larger foot print was a bit off.

 

[horseloger]

But My point is that its not just the ground pressure but the amount of regeneration that is the real problem, as I stated before a 40,000 lb machine thats 11 ft wide dose a lot of damage!
And if you look at history horses have been used to move a lot of very big logs And a high volume of material has been moved with horses! A good team of horses and teamster can move on average 4000 bf of timber from the woods. Place 4 teams in the woods like that your production moves too 16000 ft a day but your cost for operation is less than 200.00 per day for four teams! And not only that but you produce more jobs for the community that your in! And another thing too think about is whats going too happen when fuel hits 4.50 a gallon?

 

[horseloger]

My bad too I didn't look further up gink595 great pics

 

[gink595]

Around here we have a Draft Horse club, so some of the local logging outfits will hire the club to skid logs for them when the landowner doesn't want all the machinery in there, so it's a win, win situation the draft Horse club can actually use their teams and the loggers are able to get timber off of protective landowners

 

[bunchgrass]

But My point is that its not just the ground pressure but the amount of regeneration that is the real problem, as I stated before a 40,000 lb machine thats 11 ft wide dose a lot of damage!
And if you look at history horses have been used to move a lot of very big logs And a high volume of material has been moved with horses! A good team of horses and teamster can move on average 4000 bf of timber from the woods. Place 4 teams in the woods like that your production moves too 16000 ft a day but your cost for operation is less than 200.00 per day for four teams! And not only that but you produce more jobs for the community that your in! And another thing too think about is whats going too happen when fuel hits 4.50 a gallon?

Point well made. The other issue, call it GREEN if you want to, is a sustainable harvest. To service the debt on incredibly expensive equipment (both to buy and repair), you need to haul out huge amounts of wood daily. This production helps depress prices so you need to cut more ...... Horse logging doesn't have that overhead driving production.

slowp - I'm sure that Weyco would find that their harvest practices weren't having a negative impact on regeneration and forest regrowth. How about an independent source?

I, like some others here, believe that skidders etc do have a place in the woods but don't see why there's such animosity towards those horse logging - they're certainly not cutting into the commercial operation's profits.

 

[logbutcher]

Point well made. The other issue, call it GREEN if you want to, is a sustainable harvest. To service the debt on incredibly expensive equipment (both to buy and repair), you need to haul out huge amounts of wood daily. This production helps depress prices so you need to cut more ...... Horse logging doesn't have that overhead driving production.

slowp - I'm sure that Weyco would find that their harvest practices weren't having a negative impact on regeneration and forest regrowth. How about an independent source?

I, like some others here, believe that skidders etc do have a place in the woods but don't see why there's such animosity towards those horse logging - they're certainly not cutting into the commercial operation's profits.

Another fine example of setting up Straw Dogs.

No "animosity" at all. Just the facts pro/con concerning other techniques for getting a job done.

The real question should be why so many of you here get bent out of shape when another technique, method, tool, training is even mentioned that isn't your way.
Try "boring". "GOL". "Just a Homeowner" vs pro. Stihl vs Husky. Oil. One fool who posts too often, felt obligated to PM me on my bragging about "...being a Marine" ( Straw Dog again), along with some choice insults. Whew. Guess, this fool didn't take the meds that day. On and on and on. Well, it is the internet; virtual avatars and all. Gee, the most macho sounding here could be 8 year old girls pounding away in their PJ's. arty:

So take it easy. Lower the tension. Get the job done. Enjoy life. Discuss with intellect from experience. Discuss. We've got the best place to live and work in the world......period. Oh yeah: and thank those who put themselves in harms way for us now and past.

JMNSHO

 

[bunchgrass]

Another fine example of setting up Straw Dogs.

In the words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think this means what you think that it means ...." - a more appropriate term might be scapegoat. The term straw dogs is more accepted as a "philosophy of presenting one mediocre idea, so that the listener will make the choice of the better idea which follows." Time to get a new word.



No "animosity" at all. Just the facts pro/con concerning other techniques for getting a job done.

When you distort the facts (or just make 'em up), it's hard to believe that it's not driven by some animosity towards the group you're slamming - in this case, the horseloggers.



The real question should be why so many of you here get bent out of shape when another technique, method, tool, training is even mentioned that isn't your way.

The above statement reflects your comments about horselogging not mine regarding using skidders/forwarders etc - here's part of my OP ".... I, like some others here, believe that skidders etc do have a place in the woods..."


Try "boring". "GOL". "Just a Homeowner" vs pro. Stihl vs Husky. Oil. One fool who posts too often, felt obligated to PM me on my bragging about "...being a Marine" ( Straw Dog again), along with some choice insults. Whew. Guess, this fool didn't take the meds that day. On and on and on. Well, it is the internet; virtual avatars and all. Gee, the most macho sounding here could be 8 year old girls pounding away in their PJ's. arty:

So take it easy. Lower the tension. Get the job done. Enjoy life. Discuss with intellect from experience. Discuss. We've got the best place to live and work in the world......period. Oh yeah: and thank those who put themselves in harms way for us now and past.

WOW! I don't know where the above 2 paragraphs came from. Perhaps some kind of flashback or something because I don't see the relevance. Hope you get better soon.:bulgy-eyes:

 

[horseloger]

Bunchgrass, I concur I dont recall anyone saying skidders had no place in the woods! We just pointed out the flaws in the facts that were presented!

 

[logbutcher]

Bunchgrass, I concur I dont recall anyone saying skidders had no place in the woods! We just pointed out the flaws in the facts that were presented!

C'mon guys. No one is threatening your way..no need to get on your high horse :bulgy-eyesanother well worn saying ). "WE" huh ? Who is weeee ?
Look up what exactly a straw dog is as used in the real world.

Grassy you got to get out there, stop taking offense where none is meant; you make a fool out of yourself putting your own meaning into another's words. That, BTW, is the Straw Dog. Ain't real.

Hey, you can join the anti bore/GOL crowd, or the "we don need no stinkin PPE" machitos. How about calling someone.........."homeowner". As if all the virtual pros are homeless sleeping with their 60" saws in their trucks. Some need some dead serious self esteem going. Same old, same old.

 

[horseloger]

What was that , did anybody understand half of that? Nobody is on there high horse as I stated we just pointed out the flaws in your train of thought!
And as far as brunchgrass being out there hes out there everyday making a living doing what he loves!

 

[ChrisF]

C'mon guys. No one is threatening your way..no need to get on your high horse :bulgy-eyesanother well worn saying ). "WE" huh ? Who is weeee ?
Look up what exactly a straw dog is as used in the real world.

Grassy you got to get out there, stop taking offense where none is meant; you make a fool out of yourself putting your own meaning into another's words. That, BTW, is the Straw Dog. Ain't real.

Hey, you can join the anti bore/GOL crowd, or the "we don need no stinkin PPE" machitos. How about calling someone.........."homeowner". As if all the virtual pros are homeless sleeping with their 60" saws in their trucks. Some need some dead serious self esteem going. Same old, same old.

Uh... you're barely coherent at this point. No offense but what the heck are you on about?

 

[paccity]

:dunno:

 

[logbutcher]

What was that , did anybody understand half of that? Nobody is on there high horse as I stated we just pointed out the flaws in your train of thought!
And as far as brunchgrass being out there hes out there everyday making a living doing what he loves!

It's clear, concise, in the language you should understand. No ASSumptions.

...and BTW, how do you know what Grassy does and is doing ? Work with him/it/her ? Live next door ?

...and why do too many of you find it difficult to discuss anything without attacks ? There is the crux of what is the issue ? These Straw Dogs of yours just keep piling up.

Many need more woods time, less on your butts virtually plinging away. Flaws indeed !!!!!!

Now flame.............:clapn:

 

[logbutcher]

Uh... you're barely coherent at this point. No offense but what the heck are you on about?

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