Hot water heater has odd connections

[PA Plumber]

OK now what about this little guy. How do I keep this in the system and add a line to the same area for circulation?

Disclaimer: I have never installed a circulating loop for this type of application. Anything written here is not meant as professional plumbing advice. The following post is for "sake of discussion" purposes only.


"This little guy" should stay right there. I would install a piece of pex, cpvc, or copper to get the T&P blow off 2" - 4" off of the finished floor.

Install a check valve on the cold line into a tee and tie that into the water heater cold inlet. The check will keep the recirculated hot water from going into the domestic cold.

Install another tee on the hot outlet side of the water heater.That should give you a loop without messing with the T&P and the drain at the bottom of the unit.

Now remember, this loop with be "closed." There will need to be provision made for thermal expansion in this closed loop. I like a 4.4 gallon expansion tank for this. Set the tank pressure at whatever the house pressure is set at.

I.E. Public water pressure is 64 lbs coming into the house. Charge the expansion tank to 64 pounds and check it at least annually.

I.E. Well with pressure tank. Match the high(cutoff) side of the pressure switch. 30/50 or 40/60 switch, just use 50psi in the expansion tank, or 60psi respectively.

If I'm way off base here folks, just say and I won't post another word on this thread.

 

[urhstry]

This setup I am asking about is for an OWB hookup. My hot water comes off the oil burner and into the electric hot water tank. The oil burner will not go on as long as I have incoming hot water from the OWB but I need to circulate the tank water to keep it up to temp. I think that is right.

 

[PA Plumber]

This setup I am asking about is for an OWB hookup. My hot water comes off the oil burner and into the electric hot water tank. The oil burner will not go on as long as I have incoming hot water from the OWB but I need to circulate the tank water to keep it up to temp. I think that is right.

Is that a nice way of saying I'm way off base.

You will get excellent tank circulation by going in the cold inlet and out the hot outlet with a loop.

There is a dip tube on the cold side that takes the cold water down to the bottom of the tank (Unless someone removed it or tried to solder at the male/female adapter on the water heater). The hot side comes right off the top of the heater.

This gives you bottom to top circulation.

If you feel better about it, you could take your circulating loop in the drain opening and out the hot side. You would still need a tee on the hot outlet. A check valve on the cold inlet wouldn't hurt either.

Do you mind taking a pic of the top of your electric water heater?

 

[Paso One]

Take a look at this link I think it will answer all your questions.

http://crossfirefurnace.com/options.html


It has animated flows

 

[PA Plumber]

I am a service agent for one of the major water heater manufacturers. I'll give them a call tomorrow to see if anything has changed regarding moving that T&P from its factory installed location.

As of a couple of months ago, any alteration to the T&P allows them to deny liability. (Sure, I know this is a site where altering something to get better/more/louder/lighter, etc. is discussed all the time.)

 

[modn]

I am a service agent for one of the major water heater manufacturers. I'll give them a call tomorrow to see if anything has changed regarding moving that T&P from its factory installed location.

As of a couple of months ago, any alteration to the T&P allows them to deny liability. (Sure, I know this is a site where altering something to get better/more/louder/lighter, etc. is discussed all the time.)

Must be Reliance as I know when I sold them they were one of the few that had the T&P installed.

 

[PA Plumber]

Must be Reliance as I know when I sold them they were one of the few that had the T&P installed.

Kinda.

 

[urhstry]

After looking more closely I found that both connections are in fact threaded, so that makes thing a lot easier. Here is some more pics for those that asked.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Do NOT move the relief valve from it's present location!!!...Ask me why I know!

Look at some of the water heater explosion videos on U-Toob.

 

[oneoldbanjo]

I have no problem at all moving the T&P valve out a few inches. It will still receive the maximum pressure and will trip if the pressure gets too high, and it is located at the top of the sidearm which will be the point of the highest temperature and release if necessary. I am going to insulate my lines and T&P valve just to be sure the heat isn't lost to the room and allow the T&P valve to cool a bit. I would not remove the anode as it provides corrosion protection. I would also recommend that you install a ball valve in the sidearm line so that you can prevent the sidearm from taking heat from the water heater in the summer and letting it thermosiphon out your OWB lines. (In the off season close the valve and it will prevent the OWB water from circulating).

This is my water heater and sidearm installation. It is a little hard to see what is going on as my lines are insulated. I have also added a 90 bend in my sidearm to use the full length of copper pipe that came with the kit.

Here is my T&P valve and the fittings and tee that I used. I will be insulatiing the fittings and part of the T&P valve in order to allow it to retain the heat and not let it sense a cooler temperature. I suppose I could also get a shorter T&P -this is the long one that came with the water heater and the long stem used to reach throug the tank insulation.

This is the plumbing at the bottom of the tank. The silver handle valve on the left is the drain for the water heater. The green handle ball valve allows me to stop the circulation in the sidearm when I am not running the OWB. The yellow handle valve is where I attach a garden house and fill my OWB. By filling at the extreme bottom of the system I can purge the air out as the water enters the system.

 

[modn]

I have no problem at all moving the T&P valve out a few inches. It will still receive the maximum pressure and will trip if the pressure gets too high, and it is located at the top of the sidearm which will be the point of the highest temperature and release if necessary. I am going to insulate my lines and T&P valve just to be sure the heat isn't lost to the room and allow the T&P valve to cool a bit. I would not remove the anode as it provides corrosion protection. I would also recommend that you install a ball valve in the sidearm line so that you can prevent the sidearm from taking heat from the water heater in the summer and letting it thermosiphon out your OWB lines. (In the off season close the valve and it will prevent the OWB water from circulating).

This is my water heater and sidearm installation. It is a little hard to see what is going on as my lines are insulated. I have also added a 90 bend in my sidearm to use the full length of copper pipe that came with the kit.

Here is my T&P valve and the fittings and tee that I used. I will be insulatiing the fittings and part of the T&P valve in order to allow it to retain the heat and not let it sense a cooler temperature. I suppose I could also get a shorter T&P -this is the long one that came with the water heater and the long stem used to reach throug the tank insulation.

This is the plumbing at the bottom of the tank. The silver handle valve on the left is the drain for the water heater. The green handle ball valve allows me to stop the circulation in the sidearm when I am not running the OWB. The yellow handle valve is where I attach a garden house and fill my OWB. By filling at the extreme bottom of the system I can purge the air out as the water enters the system.

Your pics brings up a question for me.....can you fill the OWB with the pump running, or do you shut it off? Does it make any difference at all?

 

[oneoldbanjo]

I can add water to the OWB with the pump running.....however I only use the valve and garden hose method when I drain and flush the system. For adding water during the heating season I usually just put a step ladder up against my OWB and pour in about a 5 gallon bucket down the vent every two months......I lose very little water from my OWB.

 

[Slick]

I also put my t&p valve in a T for the same reason oneoldbanjo mentioned...that's the hotest water it's seeing so I don't see what is being effected by moving it out of the tank? I didn't have any extra ports, two on top (cold in hot out),the T&P valve on the side and the drain at the bottom. My bottom drain was a plastic drain and was AMAZINGLY hard to get out...I was beginning to think it was molded into some type of drain tray in there...tried for a long time to get it out without hurting it, didn't work ended up pipe wrenching it so hard I was picking up the water heating while wrenching on it....both got a 2" stainless nipple, stainless T etc...new drain and T&P valve point out the back (T&P valve actually need another nipple off the T as it's probe was longer), side arm is on the pass through of the T's...

 

[Paso One]

Do NOT move the relief valve from it's present location!!!...Ask me why I know!

Look at some of the water heater explosion videos on U-Toob.

Okay I'm asking why do you know

*I've never had a problem moving the valve I also test the valve regularily I believe as long as it is there and working the exact location shouldn't matter.

Nice installation oneold banjo.

 

[Slick]

Here is mine, shorty Ebay sidearm with a bunch of smaller tubes inside of it, working well...HOT water You can see the T's on the bottom drain and on the top T&P valve...which like I said required another nipple to extend it away from the T as the sensor was a few inches long. I used PEX on the top half intentially...my drain and T&P aren't straight up and down from each other , didn't want to force copper in there, pex worked perfectly. Used a sharkbite on top so I could remove it later if I needed to, copper union on the bottom. Everything is insulated like crazy now, was really heating up my utility room!

 

[PA Plumber]

Called a water heater manufacturer today and spoke with tech support.

The T&P must be threaded directly in to the tank. No exceptions.

One reason is that it gets the temp. probe too far away from the tank. Another, is the manufacturer has no control over whether or not any modification will safely hold 150 psi of pressure.

 

[modn]

Called a water heater manufacturer today and spoke with tech support.

The T&P must be threaded directly in to the tank. No exceptions.

One reason is that it gets the temp. probe too far away from the tank. Another, is the manufacturer has no control over whether or not any modification will safely hold 150 psi of pressure.

Thanks for your research. I will see what I can do different to mine when the time comes.

 

[oneoldbanjo]

Slick:

I would suggest that you move your Sidearm line to the side of the tank nipple (remove the additional one you put on) and put your T&P straight into the tank. You want that probe sticking into the flow of water - not off the side where it isn't part of the system.

 

[AIM]

The pic you showed of the top I see a plastic plug of sorts right in the middle. I'm guessing that there is a plug under that which will have the anode on it. If so use that and leave the t/p where it is. Around here we cut the anode out the day we install a new one. Our water around here reacts with it and produces a rotten egg smell to your water. Yes it voids the warranty but not having the smell is worth it.
PS. Those plugs come out VERY VERY hard on most occasions.

PSS. I just skimmed this thread so all of this may already have been stated.

 

[PA Plumber]

The pic you showed of the top I see a plastic plug of sorts right in the middle. I'm guessing that there is a plug under that which will have the anode on it. If so use that and leave the t/p where it is. Around here we cut the anode out the day we install a new one. Our water around here reacts with it and produces a rotten egg smell to your water. Yes it voids the warranty but not having the smell is worth it.
PS. Those plugs come out VERY VERY hard on most occasions.

PSS. I just skimmed this thread so all of this may already have been stated.

The anode is a buffer for the tank. Hopefully the water reacts with the metal in the anode to save tank.

If there is a salt based water treatment system on the domestic cold water feeding the water heater, the anode will give a little longer life to the tank.

I have actually seen 2 year old water heaters, that were fed by softened water, with completely dissolved anode rods. They were "leakers," because the tank rusted through. Manufacturer gave them a new one, but no labor allowance.