Hourly wage for emplyees?

[ChiHD]

I am in the process of expanding from a small company to a medium sized company and I am having some difficulty with good employee retention.

I am an ISA Certified Arborist as well as an Arboriculture Graduate and an Ontario Certified Arborist. I definately want all employees to have some kind of schooling, and have a desire to get certified. I realize that as we expand, having quality employees is what's going to keep us doing well.

The trouble I'm having is staying competitive with municipalites, hydro companies, and large companies (Davey Tree) that can offer benefit packages and have newer equipment, and seem to be more appealing.

My question is for new Arborists as well as fellow company owners:

What is a fair competitve wage for new employees in Ontario. Obviously this will depend on experience and level of skill. But what can I do as a smaller company to not only attract quality Arborists, but keep them!

If you are a new Arborist, what is important to you? And what would you expect as a starting salary if you are still in school and not yet certified.

Thanks

 

[lumberjack333]

I'm new to this field, graduated from a 12 month Forestry Technician program last august and thats where I was introduced to arboriculture and climbing. I've now got some of my own gear and been doing the odd side-job, additionally I will be starting full time for a local "medium sized" tree service next monday as a climber apprentice. I asked for starting wage between 14 - 16$/hr and got 15$ which I'm happy with, and was offered a free DZ course so I can (hopefully) start driving the bucket truck to jobs and possibly supervising the ground crew later this season... other than that, no benefits or anything else, but the opportunity for free education and a good starting wage are more than enough for my commitment...

Cheers

 

[Mark Currie]

I can't speak too much about Ontario (I know.. that's where you asked about ) but here in New Brunswick, we haven't had any big companies coming in yet. Apparently, Davey has bought at least one company up though, but I'm not sure who it is yet. I graduated from a 2 year Forest Technology program a few years ago and moved to Virginia for a year after that, to work for The Care of Trees. I moved back, hoping that I was pursuing a good opportunity. They promised me $13/hour to start off, which I was OK with, because I was moving home. On my first day, the boss informed me that I'd be starting off at $11/hour. Plus I had to buy my own chainsaw boots before I could start and my own chainsaw pants (which he was supposed to reimburse me for, but never did). I then had to pay $125 for an arboriculture electrical safety (AES) course. Then discovered that I was expected to spike up any and all prunes I did, which I told him even before I started that I wouldn't be doing. No benefits on top of that.. needless to say, I left as soon as another job came up.

If he had have come through with what he promised before I started (which included an interest in new climbing techniques), I'd probably still be working for him. But, the lack of benefits, low pay, shoddy safety practices, improper tree care, etc. all led me to leave.

Since then, I've gone back to doing IT work (testing GIS software) and doing some climbing on the side, with a friend of mine. I'd love to get back into it full time, but that means either moving (which I'm open to) or trying to make it full time on my own, with 2 other people.

Back on track, I'd say that depending on what the cost of living is in Peterborough and guaranteed 40+ hours a week for at least 7-8 (12 is ideal of course) months, the $15/hour that lumberjack333 mentioned sounds like a good range. It's funny (well, maybe not that funny), but I've met people that wouldn't do it for all the money in the world and then there are people that would do it for free, as long as they feel safe and valued as an employee. For me, I'm just looking for enough money to pay my bills and have a little bit of spending money in my pocket.. haha.. not too hard to please I guess.

Anyway, sorry if I got off topic there.

Mark

 

[ChiHD]

Thanks

Thanks to both of you for your input so far.

 

[dpcutter]

how can you guys survive off of $15 an hour? That's hard work for short money...

 

[Mark Currie]

I meant to ask in my first response. What is the cost of living like in Peterborough? I here there's a pretty good local music scene there? Could be all hearsay though. I almost took a job in Sault Sainte Marie about a year and a half ago, but wasn't up for moving again at that point.

And yes it is hard work for relatively low money. I have to admit that I'm kind of an idealist when it comes to things like that though. If you're doing what you enjoy and can make an honest living from it, there's not much else you can ask for. Realistically though, I don't want to be 60 years old with no money in the bank and a broken down body, from years of this type of work. Starting off, $15/hour isn't so bad, as long as incremental raises are in place, along with raises for certification, licensing (CDL, etc.) and increased ability.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[ChiHD]

I meant to ask in my first response. What is the cost of living like in Peterborough? I here there's a pretty good local music scene there? Could be all hearsay though. I almost took a job in Sault Sainte Marie about a year and a half ago, but wasn't up for moving again at that point.

Thanks,

Mark

I would say not as high as major cities like Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal etc.

You could get a decent 1 -2 bedroom apt. from around $900/month including utilities. Or a place in the slums for $450 if you were single and not to picky!

Gas is around $107/litre right now. I pay new guys with NO experience $11/hour to start. I usually give $1 raises 2 times a year to motivated employess who have the companies best interests in mind and treat it like a job and not just a source of income. I also give 5-10% on leads or jobs that they sell for me on their own time.

I like to see them do well, so if they do get a side job I'll help out with chipping brush and lending equipment once in a while.

My two main guys have both finished 1 year of school and will probably start out the year at $14 with the potential to make $16-$17 by years end - depending on how they perform.

Ideally I am looking for someone experienced, motivated, good attitude, who wants to become a manager in the next 2-3 years and go on salary for around $40,000 - $50,000 a year.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

 

[ChiHD]

I meant to ask in my first response. What is the cost of living like in Peterborough? I here there's a pretty good local music scene there? Could be all hearsay though. I almost took a job in Sault Sainte Marie about a year and a half ago, but wasn't up for moving again at that point.

And yes it is hard work for relatively low money. I have to admit that I'm kind of an idealist when it comes to things like that though. If you're doing what you enjoy and can make an honest living from it, there's not much else you can ask for. Realistically though, I don't want to be 60 years old with no money in the bank and a broken down body, from years of this type of work. Starting off, $15/hour isn't so bad, as long as incremental raises are in place, along with raises for certification, licensing (CDL, etc.) and increased ability.

Thanks,

Mark

I don't know too much about the music scene but from the guys who work for me I've heard it's good. You can find live music almost every night of the week, and we get some big names stopping by on the way from T.O to Ottawa!

We had our first WWE event last year too!! lol

 

[Mark Currie]

Sounds about the same as here then. Gas is a little more here right now ($1.10 I think).

It's cool that you're ok with side work as well. Some companies out there won't tolerate it at all, even though the job is probably too small for the company to bid on it.

$16-$17/hour after the first year isn't too bad. What if the person has no intentions of becoming a manager (unless your definition is different than mine), but wants to hang out in the trees for as long as they can?

Live music is always good and pretty much every night of the week is even better. I'd pass on the WWE though.. haha.. a few years ago I was into it though.

Mark

 

[ChiHD]

Sounds about the same as here then. Gas is a little more here right now ($1.10 I think).

It's cool that you're ok with side work as well. Some companies out there won't tolerate it at all, even though the job is probably too small for the company to bid on it.

$16-$17/hour after the first year isn't too bad. What if the person has no intentions of becoming a manager (unless your definition is different than mine), but wants to hang out in the trees for as long as they can?

Live music is always good and pretty much every night of the week is even better. I'd pass on the WWE though.. haha.. a few years ago I was into it though.

Mark

I've got no problems with a climber staying on long term. I'm just growing tired of training guys for 3 three years and then having them leave.

A really good, fast safe climber can be well worth up to about $22-$25 an hour as an employee but that would be my absolute most and they would have to be ready to climb 5 days a week and take on all the tough jobs I threw at them!! It's tough to pay an employee more than that when all he's doing is climbing for a few reasons. I put a lot of money into getting work, and climbing may seem like the most important job in the company but without equipment, advertising, insurance, WSIB, sales, and office work there is no work! Also it's quite competitive around here so $25 an hour could easily be 20-25% of a job.

The last job I had I made $20.50 an hour and worked my ass off. That was 6 years ago and I had no interest in becoming a manager then. Basically my definitiuon of a manager is someone who knows how to do every job within the company, as well as pricing, consultations and general leadership. One day he might have to go out and fill in for a sick employee, the next day pricing, another day he might be interviewing a new employee or setting up some advertising.....basically treating the company as if it were his own - but also getting paid to do it, and performance bonuses, company vehicle etc.

 

[lumberjack333]

how can you guys survive off of $15 an hour? That's hard work for short money...

Yeah it doesn't seem like much, but I am still relatively green to tree work... And if everything goes well hopefully I can work my @$$ off and be compensated in return with company vehicle and/or raises... Money comes after I prove myself and show my dedication, I can understand that, after all everyone starts somewhere right?

 

[ChiHD]

Yeah it doesn't seem like much, but I am still relatively green to tree work... And if everything goes well hopefully I can work my @$$ off and be compensated in return with company vehicle and/or raises... Money comes after I prove myself and show my dedication, I can understand that, after all everyone starts somewhere right?

Absolutely, and as someone said earlier, the training you receive and the years of experience that your employer passes on to you have some value too.

The frustrating thing is when an employer promises you the world and never comes through. My last boss promised us benefits and boot allowances etc. for years and kept telling us to hang in there...it will happen. After 3.5 years we all got sick of his lies and left. That is why I don't make unrealistic promises now. I can say up front that we will most likely never offer benefits, but I can promise performance bonuses and regular raises when deserved.

I think the key to being a good boss is remembering what it was like when you were working for someone else!

 

[hornett224]

try to think of wht you'd need to live.

$15 won't get you far here in southern new england.down in tennessee it wouldn't be bad if you got a lot of hours.not near what i think a climber is worth but it's almost doable if the employer is supplying all the gear.i won't climb on gear i don't own so i cost a little more.

a bigger factor to me is an employer that does what he says and says what he means.most tell you what they think you need to hear to get what they want done.this is why my tool box will never leave my garage again.it is the same bunch of BS for the tree companies i have worked for around here.they say one thing to get you there and another when you're on the job.there is one on here looking for workers right now.i worked there one day and he even screwed me on my pay.sounds like the perfect tree company to work for in the ad but they are always hiring.you figure it out.

i'll go above and beyond ,even take a bullet for someone that is straight forward with me and keeps they're word but BS me and i won't piss on you if you're on fire.

 

[clearance]

Back in the summer of '87 I worked as a laborer for a roadbuilding company in the suburbs around Toronto. It was union, I lived in a rooming house downtown. The pay was $15.75 an hour and 10% vacation pay.

Thats over 20 years ago, it was hard work, but no harder than being a groundsman for a tree service. Wages have risen, but the things we buy to live have risen much more.

Now I get $25 as a climber (utility certified, not the ISA utility specialist fraud, the real deal), with benefits. If everything had risen equally, laborers would get $30 an hour and climbers around $50.

Not all climbers are the same, a highball removal guy is worth a lot. You already said the most you would pay is $25, so there you have it.

 

[ChiHD]

Back in the summer of '87 I worked as a laborer for a roadbuilding company in the suburbs around Toronto. It was union, I lived in a rooming house downtown. The pay was $15.75 an hour and 10% vacation pay.

Thats over 20 years ago, it was hard work, but no harder than being a groundsman for a tree service. Wages have risen, but the things we buy to live have risen much more.

Now I get $25 as a climber (utility certified, not the ISA utility specialist fraud, the real deal), with benefits. If everything had risen equally, laborers would get $30 an hour and climbers around $50.

Not all climbers are the same, a highball removal guy is worth a lot. You already said the most you would pay is $25, so there you have it.

I agree with everything you said. But the reality is that it is so competitive right now with all the undercutting and such that goes on. If I was able to make $300 an hour I would have no problem paying a good climber $70/hour....but that is not the case my friend. It is crazy to think that 20 years ago you were making what climbers today are starting out at. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[GlennG]

Every employer loves the employee that makes them big bucks. Your problem is that the employee that makes you the biggest bucks has enough sense to realize that he can make in 1 day what you pay him in a week. Good tree men are smart enough to realize where the grass is green and when they are being used. Good treemen also have the balz to start their own venture.

Years ago I worked for Bartlett @ $14 per hour. I now work alone for $100+ per hour. You would be better to share the wealth with a small crew. You should also be able to pull your weight. Otherwise you will only employ drunks and addicts and your business will reflect it. Sorry thats just the way it is.

A small company is more profitable than a big company. In todays economy its impossible to go from big company to "Huge" company. Might as well stay lean and profitable.

 

[ChiHD]

Every employer loves the employee that makes them big bucks. Your problem is that the employee that makes you the biggest bucks has enough sense to realize that he can make in 1 day what you pay him in a week. Good tree men are smart enough to realize where the grass is green and when they are being used. Good treemen also have the balz to start their own venture.

Years ago I worked for Bartlett @ $14 per hour. I now work alone for $100+ per hour. You would be better to share the wealth with a small crew. You should also be able to pull your weight. Otherwise you will only employ drunks and addicts and your business will reflect it. Sorry thats just the way it is.

A small company is more profitable than a big company. In todays economy its impossible to go from big company to "Huge" company. Might as well stay lean and profitable.

Thanks for your words of wisdom. I don't and will never employ drunks or addicts. There are plenty of good people out there who believe in a hard days work for a good days pay. I'm not looking to take advantage of anybody. The purpose of this thread is to help me understand what employees are looking for and how I can better meet their needs. I also stated that I help my guys with side jobs of their own to see them do well.

Not everyone wants or can handle all the hassles and headaches of running their own business. As far as pulling your own weight, read the whole thread - I already stated that a good manager needs to be competant in all areas/jobs of tree care...the same obviously applies to an owner.

Your theory that a small company makes more profit than a big company is nothing but uneducated stupidity. It sounds like something a hack says when he doesn't have the balls or know how to take the next step. I've seen plenty of guys in my 18 years in the business leave a company to go where the grass is greener and make that $100/hour for themselves only to find out that working 8 hours a week doesn't pay the bills. Or they get no insurance or WSIB and that too catches up with them.

Bottom Line: Thanks for your input but do not mistake me for some idiot who is trying to get others to work hard for me and make me rich. I work extremely hard myself and still climb almost daily. I'm trying to figure out how to attract, retain, and appreciate good quality arborists who have no desire to start their own legitimate business.

 

[Jim1NZ]

Glenn made some good points mate.

Why would an excellent climber bust it for far less than they are worth? They can either go work for someone else for more or start up in competition...Good climbers have options and will go for a good deal at the end of the day. You went into business to make more money with a less physical work load right? Whats to stop your good guys from doing the same as you if there not happy with their deal? Hmm should i make the boss lots of money for 20.50 an hour or should i just do what he does...

Haha if i could get others to work hard and make me rich i would! Thats exactly the employee ya want, but share the riches and everyone wins.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

So true. I hear people whine about the good guys leaving for a few bucks an hour. 2*40=80*52=4160., or 16*200=3200.

You need to know the going rate in your area and pay good people what they need to stay with you.

"I pay industry standard"

"then do not complain about people stealing outstanding employees"

Find out what they want for their lifestyle, I know a great bucketman who will not leave the company because he gets $25/hr for running the crew and is guaranteed a 4x10 workweek. He picks up a little OT sometimes, but does not really want it. He is content, gets some bonuses and bennies....

Another way is to get a good guy and share him with your buddies in the industry, he works for several companies on a partime basis so no one pays him OT, but he can get an above average wage. I know an excellent groundman who does this in the MKE area. One man he works for regularly and two others will bring him in on a short notice if the primary does not need him, or breaks down.

Good people may be hard to keep, but happy ones are easy.

 

[beowulf343]

I'm trying to figure out how to attract, retain, and appreciate good quality arborists who have no desire to start their own legitimate business.

First off, i am not an arborist and have no desire to be called one. However, i do have a couple days in the business and frankly have absolutely no desire to start my own company. What keeps me as an employee? (And i've now been with the same outfit for almost nine years.)

1. Respect and trust from the boss. My boss hands me a stack of jobs for the week and then leaves me alone. He knows that i'll do everything in my power to get them done on time. And if something happens (concrete) that i don't get them done, he'll never give me a hard time, because he knows that i did all i could. He'll often send me out bidding with the salesmen on the jobs he'll know i'm going to end up doing-he doesn't even blink if i tell him that two cranes are needed to get the job done. He just factors that into the bid. Of course that's not an overnight thing either, it takes time working together.

2. A boss that i can respect. Frankly, from what i've read in this thread from you, i wouldn't work for you. Too much emphasis on whether the guy is a trained arborist rather than on how much actual experience he has. No offense meant, but i'd rather work for someone like lxt. My boss has made millions, but he started out dragging brush then climbing. He's not afraid to get his hands dirty. I've had him out at my jobsites and he'll pitch in and drag brush right along with my guys. (Plus he never questions my actions in the tree-i hate micromanagers.) I do a good job for him and he is fine with the fact that i'm not a certified arborist. (Although he is happy with a couple of certs i have that the rest of the outfit doesn't.)

3. A boss that isn't cheap. I supply my own climbing gear, ropes, saws, pickup, etc. (My choice.) But he pays me what i want, pays me hourly for my gear, pays mileage on my truck, full benefits, supplies new and very well maintained equipment, and doesn't skimp on groundie pay so i have an excellent crew. I hate having breakdowns due to crappy equipment.


You can call me lazy for not wanting to start my own business. I've had offers to run companies, take over divisions, and start up partnerships. (Although i do a bit of contract climbing on the side.) But why would i want the headaches? I love climbing. I love the challenge of figuring out how to put a tree on the ground that no other company wants to touch. Seriously. I can concentrate on what i love doing without any other distractions. Think about it, i don't have to worry about finding work, dealing with customers, paying for equipment or damages, employees, accounting, and the thousand other things that a business owner has to deal with. I just have to put my tree on the ground then i can simply go home, relax, and look forward to the next tree tomorrow. Sure, i probably won't be a millionaire, but i'm not greedy, i make six figures a year and love my job-what more could i want. Of course, if the day comes i'm too crippled to climb, maybe i'll take a desk job, but until then you can have my saw when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.