How to properly use wedges...

[smokechase II]

spotter

I'm going to recommend that you do not depend on a spotter for your safety.
An unobstructed limb falling from 50 feet takes less than 2 seconds to reach the ground and is going 40 mph when it hits.

Let's do all the math.
1) Recognition time for the spotter,
2) Reaction time for spotter,
3) Recognition time for the sawyer,
4) Reaction time for the sawyer and then
5) Escape time.
Plus how is the spotter going to communicate this to the guy running a noisy saw with concentration possibly elsewhere?

There are times where a spotter could communicate effectively. If it was a branch that would have to work its way through other branches. That is gonna take a lot more than 2 seconds.

Sometimes the hazard(s) is on just one side of the tree. Make all your cuts from the other side. Be ready for a falling limb being steered by other limbs and coming around the tree to get you.

The spotter thing sounds a first like a great safety plan. However, the timeframes are just too short.

A couple thoughts on hazard limb/top/bark evaluation:
1) Look it over thoroughly, talk it through with a buddy. Should we be doing this with those limbs?
2) Smack the tree/snag with your falling axe hard then look up immediately.
Note any excessive movement indicating weakness above.
3) See if you can remove the hazard prior to cutting,
4) Consider an equipment or pro arborist alternative.

All the Best

 

[John Ellison]

Logjam, if it is in the woods, I would fall it with the lean. Look up before during and after. If it just has a slight lean make the notch at least a third of the dia. deep. If it leans heavily then use a shallower notch. You want the tree to go without wedging because of possibly shaking something loose above. Study the lean carefully from several angles to be sure you know which way it wants to go.
If its rotten in the center you dont have to worry about barberchairing, but if its rotten enough keep in mind that it could start to collapse at any time. Especially if it leans heavily. Again look up often.
Conv, open face, or humb. just make sure the corners are clean and match.
If it is a bad one, it would probably be safest to bore cut the backcut.
That kind of tree(dead branches) is bad to throw something at you when it goes if it brushes another tree on the way down. So besides leaving the stump area it is also good to step behind another tree and wait a bit before checking it out.

 

[John Ellison]

Good point about a spotter SmokechaseII, even when you are looking right at something when it falls from 50' you have to be on your toes to get out of the way in time.

 

[clearance]

If it has a lean fall it that way, dangerous to wedge over snags against thier lean. Is there another tree you can push it with (this is allowed, pushing one tree with one other tree, not dominoing)? I make my cuts waist high so I can look up while I am cutting, I finish the backcut with one hand, always on snags, gives me an extra step away. Give it a good smack with the back of your axe first, anything really loose will probaly fall, or at least move. Look up and live.

 

[Logjam]

Thanks guys for the advice
This tree is funny.
It's still full of limbs, and has no particular lean.
However, it is somewhat heavy on one side which is the way I'm going to fall it.
It is is in the woods, and close to other tree's
I was thinking some help with ropes and snatch blocks
I could help the fall (and be safe) by winching from the opposite side of the direction of fall.
Having the limbs snap off is a real concern. especially when it's falling.

One qustion I have is
If my bar is shorter than the tree dia. How do I back cut this thing and still get a decent break at the hinge.
Due to the center being rotten.
Should I plunge cut, then leave a tab for the trigger?

 

[Big Daddy]

Hello Folks

What a great informative tread... Thanks to those of you who are sharing your knowledge. Can someone tell me what you mean by, barber-chairing, and some of the other industry terms...

God Bless
Big Daddy

 

[woodfarmer]

i fall a lot of trees similar to this as i would any live tree, it may be a good idea to have a spoter to watch for falling branches, which is your biggest concern with standing dead trees in my opinion and always wear your hard hat. i know its saved my mellon on a few occasions

when i mentioned using a spotter, i did not mean for you to solely rely on this person. i was just mentioning this as an option, you may want to have someone with you when you cut this tree down, not in too close either. the others advie of checking for falling branches is also good. in order to winch the tree over your still going to have to make some cuts. some pictures would really help the members here with their advice. it sounds as though your fairly new to the tree felling, if your not my apologies in advance, this is not the time to learn the boring cut if your not experienced with it all ready. it only takes a few more seconds of cutting with a bar that is shorter than the trees diameter. again try to post some pictures and you'll get more good advice.

 

[Logjam]

Thanks woodfarmer
I'll try to get some pics to show you guys.

And no apologies needed on the inexperienced tree falling.

I have dropped a few trees, but am a novice. (cut for fire wood)

It's just this one, is scary

 

[Gologit]

Thanks woodfarmer
I'll try to get some pics to show you guys.

And no apologies needed on the inexperienced tree falling.

I have dropped a few trees, but am a novice. (cut for fire wood)

It's just this one, is scary

:hmm3grin2orange: If you don't have one that scares you once in awhile you're not paying enough attention. Theres a common bit of advice that runs through this thread but I"ll add mine to it...look up. Its not the dangers you're aware of that'll get you. Its the stuff you don't see that will. Look up when you're wedging,not constantly but enough to watch for stuff jarred loose. If you're working in thick timber wait for a few minutes after the tree falls before you go in and start limbing. If the tree you fell brushed anything on the way down it might bite you while you're bucking...this gets a lot of guys. Since you're just cutting firewood and production isn't a priority you can afford to take all the time you want to be safe.

 

[1wildthing]

Hey logjam, where are you? If you're somewhere close, I could run over and help you drop it this weekend. It would have to be tomorrow or monday, as I am pretty busy this afternoon. PM me if you're interested.

 

[zemmo]

Barber chair link

Hello Folks

What a great informative tread... Thanks to those of you who are sharing your knowledge. Can someone tell me what you mean by, barber-chairing, and some of the other industry terms...

God Bless
Big Daddy

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=14400&highlight=barberchairing

 

[Logjam]

1Wildthing,
Thanks a ton for the offer to help. I pm'd ya to let you know where I'm at.
Also thanks everyone for the great advise. I have my mind set on dropping this babe. But am in no hurry. I did not get any pics yet, but went out and looked at it again. I think she'll drop fine. But your right on the falling limb's thing. Their gonna snap as it's coming down. As another note. The next tree is far enough away, so hopefully there is time to scramble before it starts to sheer off those widow makers.

 

[1wildthing]

1Wildthing,
Thanks a ton for the offer to help. I pm'd ya to let you know where I'm at.
Also thanks everyone for the great advise. I have my mind set on dropping this babe. But am in no hurry. I did not get any pics yet, but went out and looked at it again. I think she'll drop fine. But your right on the falling limb's thing. Their gonna snap as it's coming down. As another note. The next tree is far enough away, so hopefully there is time to scramble before it starts to sheer off those widow makers.

Good luck with it. Remember to post some pics after it's down and let us all know how it went.

 

[boatermark]

Sounds like you went through either MEMIC, Game of Logging, or Arbormaster. All that's fine and dandy in hardwoods. :deadhorse: One might want to research more if he were working out west, though. Out here, unless the tree's a heavy leaner, a bore in backcut's a waste of time.

tek9tim, you are correct. I've been through Game of Logging. It certainly taught me a lot, and would recommend it to anyone. If you don't mind me asking, what's MEMIC?

Also, as you mentioned, folks on the West Coast don't seem to agree with practices taught in the Game of Logging. I've been corrected before about this on this site. I am not sure what to say. The Game of Logging encourages their method in both soft and hard woods and it has always worked for me in both and probably many many others. Maybe the difference is in the size of the softwood trees, with yours being so much larger? I think for the majority of chain saw users, this method will work fine. There are probably many other techniques for large soft woods getting into the 6' to 8' DBH and larger. Any input on this?

boatermark
Perhaps instead of; "the direction the tree falls is controlled by the hinge." it should read; If everything is done correctly, the direction a tree falls is controlled primarily by the hinge.

Since we are in a thread about wedging, it would be nice to show wedges some respect and mention that there are instances where wedges control where a tree falls more than other factors such as hinge, notch size, wind, side leans, strength of wood etc.

Smokechase II, great input. Your response included a lot of really good points!

This is exactly how I have cut almost every tree I have ever felled. Sometimes on small wood where there is no room for a wedge I put in the backcut first. If the tree is going to chair, you probably don't need wedges. Each to his own, all the fallers I have ever met use this method. Just don't be cutting off your holding wood, pay attention. I have never used the bore method (not this type of boring anyways), doesn't the tree "pop" as it falls, tearing out wood, devaluing the butt log?

Clearance, you are correct. DON'T cut into the holding wood/hinge!

In regards to the tree "popping" I have seen this and I believe it is more often a result of the notch dimensions. The smaller the notch angle, the sooner the notch closes as the tree falls. If the notch closes as the tree is still falling, it can almost rocket right off the stump! Not as safe or good for minimizing fiber pull. I'd recommend a more open notch, around 70 degrees. This allows the tree to just about hit the ground before the notch closes. This would be for conventional open notch, humbolt, etc.

With a proper notch angle cut, there are other tricks that can be employed to minimize fiber pull and maximize the amount of merchantile wood. In this case, some plunge a gap in the notch in the middle of the tree (when done correctly this shouldn't effect hinge strength). Also, some cut small notch wings so to speak on either side of the notch. Others here may have other tricks that can be used to minimize the fiber pull.

Thanks for the info. As mentioned above, pictures/sketches would be helpful if possible...

Foghorn

Sorry, I'll try to work on this. Been busy running around over the holidays.

 

[tek9tim]

tek9tim, you are correct. I've been through Game of Logging. It certainly taught me a lot, and would recommend it to anyone. If you don't mind me asking, what's MEMIC?

Also, as you mentioned, folks on the West Coast don't seem to agree with practices taught in the Game of Logging. I've been corrected before about this on this site. I am not sure what to say. The Game of Logging encourages their method in both soft and hard woods and it has always worked for me in both and probably many many others. Maybe the difference is in the size of the softwood trees, with yours being so much larger? I think for the majority of chain saw users, this method will work fine. There are probably many other techniques for large soft woods getting into the 6' to 8' DBH and larger. Any input on this?

MEMIC is Maine Employers' Mutual Insurance Company, basically like workman's comp in the northeast. They have courses set up that are actually Game of Logging, but with their name all over it too.

I suppose the reason why those of us out west disagree with those techniques is because we more or less go with the techniques outlined in D. Douglas Dent's book "Professional Timber Falling", and it works great for us.

For example, a standard face opening of about 45 degrees works well, because if by the time the tree's 45 degrees into its fall it isn't going where you want it, you're screwed already. Plus, making your face 70 degrees or more takes a lot longer, (additional exposure time) uses more fuel, and takes up more of the saleable timber for a very small gain in tree control. Which, I will agree is useful. Sometimes. 99% of the time in softwood, you do not need that additional time attached to the stump. So you can avoid fiber pull with it, but what's that worth if you lose more of the tree to your face cut? But, I am getting into territory I know little of. Although I did cut some trees for sale this morning, I fall trees to mitigate hazards. Most of the time they are dead, on fire, or both, and I want to spend as little time under them as possible, so I very very rarely ever use an open face. It is simply a tool that I know how to use, and only use it when necessary.

For the converse of your argument about using east coast cuts in both soft and hardwoods, I've used west coast cutting in both as well, with no problems.

What it comes down to for me is that a lot of the techniques in Game of Logging sound like a lot of fiddlefarting around. Especially considering softwoods and snags. There is no way I am going to take the additional time to make an open face and bore in the backcut on a tree that doesn't need it.

I guess what it comes down to is that if what we do didn't work or proved to be unsafe, would we do it? The biggest safety sissies out there, the Forest Service, trains sawyers based on D. Douglas Dent's methods.

 

[boatermark]

Tek9tim, thanks a lot for the info. I'll have to check out that book!

Perhaps cutting a notch with a greater angle takes a little more time, and uses a little more fuel, but I am not sure if it really wastes material. I think the extra material cut off the exterior of the tree from a larger angled notch really can't be made into a board anyway, where the center is more important, hence large fiber pull isn't ideal. Also, from what I understand, with large softwoods, a large angled Humbolt notch could be used. The notch is then totally in the root flare and material isn't lost at all.

Regarding time, safety always seems to eat into time, but GOL methods seem to be a pretty good compromise. My GOL instructor was fast, really fast, and seemed to be working as safe as possible the entire time (he's a pro...I am far from it).

I don't know...open for input. It's a great topic though and fun to hear everyone's thoughts!

 

[smokechase II]

game of logging

boatermark:

Just a wild thought. Sometimes the reason things are done the way they are where they are, is because that is the way they should be.
That isn't to say that on a tree by tree basis, any faller can reach into a bag of tricks and use a technique from somewhere else to be either safer, more efficient or both.

Look at where the Game of Logging came from, Soren E. from Scandinavia.

I posted the drawing below recently. It's from a Norway how to site.

Note the depth of the face cut. The reason it works over there is that with smaller timber this is the best way to get the most, (fiber or lumber), out of the butt log. One thing that helps in this method is the matching of the face and back-cut. This is a very efficient relationship.
But, a shallow face is harder to work with. Especially when not felling with the lean.

Three steps to felling:
1) Initial part of the release, face cut,
2) Back-cut is the second step,
3) Hinge provides control.

If that initial part of the release is not enough, (think of it being part way towards falling without a notch), it should be viewed as a compromise.
Where this particular compromise needs to be viewed with the greatest skepticism is from a safety standpoint particularly in larger trees. No stump shot means the butt could be more likely to shoot back over the stump. {Some would point out that the height of the back-cut is not a safety item with regard to the face. Not true in this case. Because the face is so shallow, a matching back-cut is required. Adios to stump shot}.
The second area of concern is that with larger timber, (same physics; just more of it), you don't want to limit your directional control by having a shallow face. The standard extreme example of this is felling a large diameter 'staub' that is straight up and down. If you have one of these in say a 4-5'+ diameter/20 foot high size. You'll learn pretty quickly to go with a notch half way in. Granted, this is an extreme example, but make a sliding scale of the every other tree and the directions you'd like to drop them, all the way back to no notch, and you can see where the depth of the face is important.

This is not mentioned in any of the GOL/Open Face technique literature I've viewed. GOL emphasis is on the height of the notch opening and the amount of holding wood across the hinge. If you step back and look at this. It makes perfect sense that the different points of emphasis are strongest where they are.

Since this was a thread about wedging let's get back to that. Another GOL based thought process needs review also. Tree segments and wedging. It can work pretty well if the physics are reasonable. However, the tree segment determination does not consider how much a wedge can lift. It does not consider weight at all. Stepping back again, it is easy to see why that method doesn't get much use in larger timber. There weight is usually the primary limitor in wedging, not dimensional factors.

So a different type of face gets used commonly on the West Coast of the US/Canada. The Humboldt; and yes it has compromises too.

Move over to hazard tree stuff and working on fires, one finds a world within a world, and the ability to look up or make all of your cuts from one side, might be the drivers for other techniques.

 

[logbutcher]

Fiddlefart 101

MEMIC is Maine Employers' Mutual Insurance Company, basically like workman's comp in the northeast.
I suppose the reason why those of us out west disagree with those techniques is because we more or less go with the techniques outlined in D. Douglas Dent's book "Professional Timber Falling", and it works great for us.

For example, a standard face opening of about 45 degrees works well, because if by the time the tree's 45 degrees into its fall it isn't going where you want it, you're screwed already. Plus, making your face 70 degrees or more takes a lot longer, (additional exposure time) uses more fuel, and takes up more of the saleable timber for a very small gain in tree control. Which, I will agree is useful. Sometimes. 99% of the time in softwood, you do not need that additional time attached to the stump. So you can avoid fiber pull with it, but what's that worth if you lose more of the tree to your face cut? But, I am getting into territory I know little of. Although I did cut some trees for sale this morning, I fall trees to mitigate hazards. Most of the time they are dead, on fire, or both, and I want to spend as little time under them as possible, so I very very rarely ever use an open face. It is simply a tool that I know how to use, and only use it when necessary.
It comes down to for me is that a lot of the techniques in Game of Logging sound like a lot of fiddlefarting around. There is no way I am going to take the additional time to make an open face and bore in the backcut on a tree that doesn't need it.

I guess what it comes down to is that if what we do didn't work or proved to be unsafe, would we do it? The biggest safety sissies out there, the Forest Service, trains sawyers based on D. Douglas Dent's methods.

OK OK full jacket disclosure here: I passed the Game of Logging WITH MEMIC instructors. Even got a "Certificate". It was a mixed crew, landowners, arborists, loggers.
Each to his own dropping a timber, BUT. When you say you know everything about anything, it's time to eat the TEK 9 .
The GOL/MEMIC, Certified Professional Logger program is meant for former know-it-alls like me who thought, because of years of hack chainsaw use had nothing to learn. It teaches real-world techniques for safety, maintenance, accuracy, AND ( hear it ) efficiency and speed.
It works and has worked for pros here and overseas (Sweden). I can drop the scariest trees where and how I want. No front end loader or skidder, no lines to the truck. Just techniques and wedges. Softwood, hardwood, heartwood rots, leaners to hell. Open face cuts, planning, triggers, wedges, escape clearings, even handling the saw weapon are all part of my now dilettante cutting. They work.
I'm changing my handle to Fiddlefart 1 . With permission .
BTW: there are world GOL contests. Try one. Nice hard fun.
Fiddlefart 1 boring away Downeast. :biggrinbounce2:

 

[smokechase II]

well done

Nice job Tim.

You flushed that one out.

 

[Logjam]

Wow

Hey great info fellas,
I wonder if they have some type a program like GOL memic in the midwest?
Also, I need to search for for that reading material for better knowledge of tree felling.