Humboldt vs. Conventional

[northmanlogging]

Geez Louise guys, give it a break. Ad Hominem does nothing good to improve discussion.

Both styles of cutting are taught professionally by guys who are strong adherents to their preferred style of cutting. If you’ve taken or helped teach S-212 in different regions you are well aware of this. They both have merits, and also downsides. Ask some of the fire guys who went from the west coast to help in NC, TN and KY a few years back. Several of them got hurt, a few really bad. Both of you haven’t cut the same types of trees.

Conifers and even west coast deciduous trees in alpine and subalpine areas of the Cascades, Sierras and the western slopes of the Rockies are different than the short, fat trees found in the midwest, southeast and mid-atlantic regions of the US. They’re easier to control and judge lean and limb weight. Humboldts and back cuts work great, and the Coos Bay cut is great for leaners. You can argue all you want, but they just are. Deciduous trees here short, have large crowns and usually less diameter on the stump. The wood is more brittle, generally. They will split and chair on you. Cedar and Madrone will too. The simple fact of the matter is that the trees that are out here are different than the ones there and comparing things without having done both shows ignorance on both parties.

No one is the end all expert on cutting trees down.

see now, the assumption is all we cut is alpine timber, when most of what i cut is under 500' above sea level, maples, birch alder, cherry, madrone, popular, oaks we get it all here, just not as marketable as cedar, fir, hemlock, but it all gets cut

so yeah...

 

[weimedog]

see now, the assumption is all we cut is alpine timber, when most of what i cut is under 500' above sea level, maples, birch alder, cherry, madrone, popular, oaks we get it all here, just not as marketable as cedar, fir, hemlock, but it all gets cut

so yeah...

Would be interesting to see how you get the pin oak ( white ) oak down & out. Here they want a real short stump. Same with maple. Every inch. A interesting discussion for me is to look at the geometry of the different cut types to see which in fact yields the most board footage. Been back and forth Humboldt vs. using the root flares. Log buyer prefers a "blend" So that is where I ended up. ( BTW The bore cut trigger wood approach works regardless of face cut type )

 

[northmanlogging]

Truth right here, I'm not arguing against his approach at all. Never once questioned the validity. Just argue his approach to evangelizing his to those out here buy trying to berate some of the institutions out here designed to build safe practices. No more no less. If I were to go out there, I would invest in training to learn that world. Would recommend that to anyone. The converse is not true. That is the rub.

the problem with learning a method that declares THIS IS THE WAY is that it makes people only see solutions that fit in that narrow scope

WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY GODDAMNED POINT

yet you like so many small minded folks hear. pft that dont werk, and get instantly defensive, like so many east coast blowhards

your arguments are disengenious, and frankly ******* stupid, does that make me arogant, or am i showing disdain for idiotic single mindeness?

 

[weimedog]

the problem with learning a method that declares THIS IS THE WAY is that it makes people only see solutions that fit in that narrow scope

WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY GODDAMNED POINT

yet you like so many small minded folks hear. pft that dont werk, and get instantly defensive, like so many east coast blowhards

your arguments are disengenious, and frankly ****ing stupid, does that make me arogant, or am i showing disdain for idiotic single mindeness?

I didn't get defensive on the cut style or system. Just point out while it works there it doesn't here for me. I did intentionally push back, mostly because of the reaction to first the "Bjarne Butler" video's then the John Adler video's. I did that to flush out the typical approach from folks like you two. And frankly how easy it was to get you to blow. Me? As I've said for years, there are no shortage of smart people out there. And most "regions" have folks who have developed systems. Obviously Bjarne Butler has and makes a living at it, and I respect all that even if it doesn't apply here. John Adler another and the Paul Smiths organization has with input from world wide sources, including west coat types, as well. So it's not me any way trying to criticize how you operate, it IS me poking you so you will demonstrate how you deal with others. SO I got in the mud a little, it's fun for me from time to time. AND got the result I expected.

 

[northmanlogging]

Would be interesting to see how you get the pin oak ( white ) oak down & out. Here they want a real short stump. Same with maple. Every inch. A interesting discussion for me is to look at the geometry of the different cut types to see which in fact yields the most board footage. Been back and forth Humboldt vs. using the root flares. Log buyers prefers a "blend" So that is where I ended up. ( BTW The bore cut trigger wood approach works regardless of face cut type )

and this is where your ideas break down, pay attention.


here, the mills deduct for leaving sloped or crooked cuts in logs, high stumps dont matter, cause the 6" you might of saved just lost you 2 feet or more of deduct from the oal length

so you might as well leave it on the stump

as for geometry, standard or humboldt doesn't effect direction of fall, but it does effect what happens when the tree hits something.

and no, as a matter of fact triggers do not make it any safer, they just delay tge fall until you are ready., thet can and will still chair, set back go sideways, break off and rain death.

 

[weimedog]

I guess part of the reason I wasted my time to do this, is this blow up bully type approach to any push back is a mission of mine. I will chase it every time. Part for entertainment, but part as simply a public service so folks who may pass thru here understand at what level these discussions are allowed to fall when folks are so invested in one approach or another, regardless of how they "fit" in the viewers world. It's like all "fads", a grain of truth mixed with BS. An example, abet a little less critical, As much as I enjoy things like a big full wrap handle for cosmetic reasons, a saw configured that way is a hinderance. But so many will tap into the "fad" and build a saw that can actually hurt their ability to function. Same with felling technique. many are driven by the process not the situation. Hence the angst. My mission is to fight that at every turn so folks will learn as many as possible, and understand while one may be preferred infact better in a scenario, another may work better and safer for their scenario. So my advice has been to always study the different ones. As I put in a video a while back, get trained locally first. Operate with that knowledge for a bit, then study the others , as many as possible. Because there may be a nugget in there useful to your system. John Adler's teaching added a lot to mine.

 

[weimedog]

and this is where your ideas break down, pay attention.


here, the mills deduct for leaving sloped or crooked cuts in logs, high stumps dont matter, cause the 6" you might of saved just lost you 2 feet or more of deduct from the oal length

so you might as well leave it on the stump

as for geometry, standard or humboldt doesn't effect direction of fall, but it does effect what happens when the tree hits something.

and no, as a matter of fact triggers do not make it any safer, they just delay tge fall until you are ready., thet can and will still chair, set back go sideways, break off and rain death.

This is not where mine breaks down. Its where your system, tree's, and mills are different than mine. My log buyers at times say something different...and I ask. And different jobs/tree's sometimes are better with a different approach. So I adapt. Because they are my logs , my jobs so dollars matter. The maple I'm cutting now will get $1.25 to 1.5 a ft. I get all of that as its my wood & there are no taps or center rot on these 25-28inch trees. The approach to a face cut is what ever gets me the most. I have no pride in any of these different approaches. The face cut I make on some of these maples will be mostly in the root flares, not in the wood measured for board ft. Sometimes, not EVERY time, its worth the extra cut time to get that extra 8 to 10 inches using that "face cut" approach. Other times either exposed roots pointing to center rot or taps allow other techniques, so yet again I discuss with the log buyers, and yet again I will adapt. Not a one size fits all solution discussion for me. So this communication style you have demonstrated is exactly my point. And why I poke at stuff like this. While that is all true for you. I in fact have a different system and metric. Rather than try to ram yours you actually might learn from mine as I would from yours. A discussion would be possible if you didn't assume how your system out where ever you are is how mine is, from trees, log buyers to felling technique. . What I have done is in fact listen to the "mills" thru their buyers and take their advice on how best to harvest to fit their requirements. I morphed and modified until I was able to achieve that with the jobs I have. And yet again, there is the difference between you and me. I hear and understand believe and respect your definition is true. You on the other hand react as you just did. But At LEAST the information is moving even if the carrier is full of BS. But yet again this is TWO subjects. The face cut and the strategy of trigger wood. John Adler's "trigger wood" concept applies to most face cut types. And then there are the tree service type, log quality isn't always a priority, but safety is. So what happened to your partner? He heart attack yet? That dude needs to take a pill or he / she will be feeding the trees he / she wants to harvest.

 

[catbuster]

see now, the assumption is all we cut is alpine timber, when most of what i cut is under 500' above sea level, maples, birch alder, cherry, madrone, popular, oaks we get it all here, just not as marketable as cedar, fir, hemlock, but it all gets cut

so yeah...

Yeah, I know, kinda overgeneralized, but even so west coast deciduous trees are taller and have less crown than ones on the eastern part of the country. I’m thinking mostly broadleaf Maple & the like. Even your guys’ cottonweeds, which I think are the only species that overlap, grow differently.

 

[weimedog]

and this is where your ideas break down, pay attention.


here, the mills deduct for leaving sloped or crooked cuts in logs, high stumps dont matter, cause the 6" you might of saved just lost you 2 feet or more of deduct from the oal length

so you might as well leave it on the stump

as for geometry, standard or humboldt doesn't effect direction of fall, but it does effect what happens when the tree hits something.

and no, as a matter of fact triggers do not make it any safer, they just delay tge fall until you are ready., thet can and will still chair, set back go sideways, break off and rain death.

Yeah, a complex discussion yet again effected by tree characteristics and the definition of "win". The design of the hinge, design of the face cut along with the weight of the tree all have an effect on the direction a tree will fall. Also will increase or decrease the danger to the person near that tree. Stronger hinge design has more influence than one that might break mid fall where then the "weight" distribution of the tree makes the final decision on that next part of the fall. And what can break a hinge? Geometry. That defines the point the hinge closes. And the design of the hinge along with the weight distribution of the tree defines what happens after the face cut closes from a break & fall to a barber chair. And all that depends on the physical characteristics of the wood in the tree. Some break clean & easy. Some break with less angle and don't need a lot of face cut angle. Ash doesn't with it's cable like fibers. That hinge design along with the face design needs to be tailored to all those things. Would take a book to describe even the scenario's I have on my current job with Ash, Hard Maple, and Cherry. It's a blend of these things that defines the best way to put a tree safely in a desired location. And then there is the "geometry" of the saw log after it's on the ground. At times I have to compromise the value to safely put the tree where I need. Sacrifice log length for safety. Other time the lean is favorable and I can skim on face cut/hinge to maximize the saw logs value. Yet again not a one size fits all discussion. Funny thing is when I drop the tree's off a hill side, the face cut design looks like a Humboldt. But often with a normal set of tree's I will just use the "lowest common denominator" with an approach that will likely and safely get the tree down even if I loose a little log length.

Yet again the "trigger" wood concept is ANOTHER discussion, works with about every type of configuration and face cut/hinge design. And frankly, being able to step back for a second or closer look before cutting the hold wood can save your life vs. cutting into the hinge up close and personal looking up for a clue. Especially on trees like mine where the longer often dead or brittle branches are limb tied. Can reposition , plan an escape and cut & MOVE. Saved my arse many a time.

 

[pdqdl]

I've been called arrogant many times

Yeah. That arrogance word gets tossed around a lot, mostly by folks that cannot really understand why you are telling them what they just heard.

I've been saving this meme, mostly 'cause I liked it.

 

[northmanlogging]

I guess part of the reason I wasted my time to do this, is this blow up bully type approach to any push back is a mission of mine. I will chase it every time. Part for entertainment, but part as simply a public service so folks who may pass thru here understand at what level these discussions are allowed to fall when folks are so invested in one approach or another, regardless of how they "fit" in the viewers world. It's like all "fads", a grain of truth mixed with BS. An example, abet a little less critical, As much as I enjoy things like a big full wrap handle for cosmetic reasons, a saw configured that way is a hinderance. But so many will tap into the "fad" and build a saw that can actually hurt their ability to function. Same with felling technique. many are driven by the process not the situation. Hence the angst. My mission is to fight that at every turn so folks will learn as many as possible, and understand while one may be preferred infact better in a scenario, another may work better and safer for their scenario. So my advice has been to always study the different ones. As I put in a video a while back, get trained locally first. Operate with that knowledge for a bit, then study the others , as many as possible. Because there may be a nugget in there useful to your system. John Adler's teaching added a lot to mine.

and now you're attacking full wrap bars... atypical east coast ignorance, they are popular out here because they work, taint none of us willing to drag around extra weight just for the image.
You're stated mission is to fight attitudes like mine... and you have the audacity to call ME arrogant and a bully lol... cool bruh cool

Yeah, a complex discussion yet again effected by tree characteristics and the definition of "win". The design of the hinge, design of the face cut along with the weight of the tree all have an effect on the direction a tree will fall. Also will increase or decrease the danger to the person near that tree. Stronger hinge design has more influence than one that might break mid fall where then the "weight" distribution of the tree makes the final decision on that next part of the fall. And what can break a hinge? Geometry. That defines the point the hinge closes. And the design of the hinge along with the weight distribution of the tree defines what happens after the face cut closes from a break & fall to a barber chair. And all that depends on the physical characteristics of the wood in the tree. Some break clean & easy. Some break with less angle and don't need a lot of face cut angle. Ash doesn't with it's cable like fibers. That hinge design along with the face design needs to be tailored to all those things. Would take a book to describe even the scenario's I have on my current job with Ash, Hard Maple, and Cherry. It's a blend of these things that defines the best way to put a tree safely in a desired location. And then there is the "geometry" of the saw log after it's on the ground. At times I have to compromise the value to safely put the tree where I need. Sacrifice log length for safety. Other time the lean is favorable and I can skim on face cut/hinge to maximize the saw logs value. Yet again not a one size fits all discussion. Funny thing is when I drop the tree's off a hill side, the face cut design looks like a Humboldt. But often with a normal set of tree's I will just use the "lowest common denominator" with an approach that will likely and safely get the tree down even if I loose a little log length.

Yet again the "trigger" wood concept is ANOTHER discussion, works with about every type of configuration and face cut/hinge design. And frankly, being able to step back for a second or closer look before cutting the hold wood can save your life vs. cutting into the hinge up close and personal looking up for a clue. Especially on trees like mine where the longer often dead or brittle branches are limb tied. Can reposition , plan an escape and cut & MOVE. Saved my arse many a time.

^^ you do realize that you are clarifying your own ignorance here right?
the face cut whether up or down does not effect the hold wood in any way shape or form, the steepness of the face cut however very much does, .
As for leaving the angled/sloped side on logs, $$ says the mills you deal with deduct for it just as ours here do, at least our mills aren't lying to us about it.
And yeah I can see on some timber how the crooked root flares can add value, in which case I would probably change my methods, however, its not nearly important enough on 99% of the timber out there to make a tinkers damn of difference in log quality, and in fact here, the stump flare is another thing you'll get a deduction from.

You keep calling me a bully, then harassing me, and everyone on the west coast? $'s to donuts I know I can cut timber on your side of the planet and make it pay, can you do the same here? Thats not arrogance or being a bully, simple facts.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yeah, I know, kinda overgeneralized, but even so west coast deciduous trees are taller and have less crown than ones on the eastern part of the country. I’m thinking mostly broadleaf Maple & the like. Even your guys’ cottonweeds, which I think are the only species that overlap, grow differently.

I do hate the cottonweeds... and I'm pretty sure its mutual...
I was thinking I should try boring the guts on one, see if it helps the SOB's stay on the stump better like it does with the alders, cherries, and birches? Normally I aim to have as much hold wood as possible, but they are brittle *******s so maybe less is more?

 

[northmanlogging]

Yeah. That arrogance word gets tossed around a lot, mostly by folks that cannot really understand why you are telling them what they just heard.

I've been saving this meme, mostly 'cause I liked it.
View attachment 1072703

People get stuck on what someone they respect told them was facts, generally someone older or wearing a suit...
I've never been one to believe anyone's BS just cause they got old, less so if they are wearing a suit, or cowboy hat.
And yeah, if yer a dumb ass, I probably come off as arrogant, thats ok, I'll sleep like a baby tonight.

 

[weimedog]

the problem with learning a method that declares THIS IS THE WAY is that it makes people only see solutions that fit in that narrow scope

WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY GODDAMNED POINT

yet you like so many small minded folks hear. pft that dont werk, and get instantly defensive, like so many east coast blowhards

your arguments are disengenious, and frankly ****ing stupid, does that make me arogant, or am i showing disdain for idiotic single mindeness?

We can start from scratch on a positive note BUT I Think we need to set this record straight. I was the one saying all the different regions have smart folks developing approach's and it was me suggesting to get trained locally first. Not you or your buddy. Hey I learn from anyone. As I said in a prior post. No pride when it comes to gathering data, from You, John Adler, The Swedish Poser, anyone without prejudice. You and your partner are the ones being defensive about first the perception of "you" online while discrediting other approaches vigorously, almost like you accuse any one who doesn't see the world your way as stupid and arrogant. So you are acting as you accuse me. Not me fellow. What I said is I studied your approach, and others including John Adler's . I chose his, not yours as it fits my world. In the post talking about how I adapt to the situations at hand, I point out I have no affinity to any of the approaches in fact the deciding factor for me is safety and the log buyers. To assume from some place far away you can define the situation better than the folks here on the ground. I would never assume that.

Now to The John Adler posts. His explanations are based in logic, I absolutely acknowledge that. Yet another case of me accepting another's approach. I accepted his. His program have dedicated their entire existence to safety and promoting safety and I would be remise in NOT putting his data and information into these discussions. A great starting point for any discussion. Debating the pros and cons is a good idea if for no other reason than to get folks THINKING about safety. So of that I am guilty. TO putting that front and center to force that discussion, but interestingly enough to also flush out those who are truly insecure and defensive in their approach not just to life but the profession. Should be an easy and somewhat fun discussion to do the "Ya Buts" on trigger felling from efficiency to the discussion of when and where is does or doesn't make sense. I am completely comfortable in that space. Can see several places in my world it doesn't fit. Are you? Your choice. I'm sure it would benefit many to hear the debate on that from actual adults using logic vs. calling John "Arrogant" or the founder of the concept a "Swedish Poser" But.... who took us to this place this? Not me. More than willing to engage with an adult conversation on the subject.

 

[weimedog]

and now you're attacking full wrap bars... atypical east coast ignorance, they are popular out here because they work, taint none of us willing to drag around extra weight just for the image.
You're stated mission is to fight attitudes like mine... and you have the audacity to call ME arrogant and a bully lol... cool bruh cool

^^ you do realize that you are clarifying your own ignorance here right?
the face cut whether up or down does not effect the hold wood in any way shape or form, the steepness of the face cut however very much does, .
As for leaving the angled/sloped side on logs, $$ says the mills you deal with deduct for it just as ours here do, at least our mills aren't lying to us about it.
And yeah I can see on some timber how the crooked root flares can add value, in which case I would probably change my methods, however, its not nearly important enough on 99% of the timber out there to make a tinkers damn of difference in log quality, and in fact here, the stump flare is another thing you'll get a deduction from.

You keep calling me a bully, then harassing me, and everyone on the west coast? $'s to donuts I know I can cut timber on your side of the planet and make it pay, can you do the same here? Thats not arrogance or being a bully, simple facts.

And yet again you are the defensive ones. I obviously assume Full wrap handles have their place out there...its why you have them. It's yet again you who are the defensive ones when I point out they are a hinderance here. Do you know why? It's crap like this that makes conversation with folks like you impossible. And you accuse me of being defensive and arrogant. I understand exactly why the west coast saw are built that way and accept that completely. You on the other had seen that as an attack. Full Wraps and long bucking spikes make no sense for me here for two obvious reasons if you actually had worked here you would know. And this is exactly why I will wrestle with you and your insecure attacks on the rest of the country. I accept your ways are right for you, never argued they weren't. You can't do the same. It's simply not in your capability set. Folks, all u have to do is read this guy to understand where his head and heart are. Simply can't deal in logic therefore can't understand the other regions of this country. That is you sir not me. I have a clear understanding why the standard wrap works for me, I don't see that as "better" or an attack on your way. But true to form that is what u lock in on. Fun fact is the two saws I ran this last year are full wraps. Back to a standard handle now.

 

[weimedog]

^^ you do realize that you are clarifying your own ignorance here right?
the face cut whether up or down does not effect the hold wood in any way shape or form, the steepness of the face cut however very much does, .
As for leaving the angled/sloped side on logs, $$ says the mills you deal with deduct for it just as ours here do, at least our mills aren't lying to us about it.
And yeah I can see on some timber how the crooked root flares can add value, in which case I would probably change my methods, however, its not nearly important enough on 99% of the timber out there to make a tinkers damn of difference in log quality, and in fact here, the stump flare is another thing you'll get a deduction from.

Yet again you assume I don't agree with your statement. On what many deal with, I understand that exactly, I've been playing this game for more than 20 years as a direct to mill seller, But I have another set of priorities and requirements to work with defined by my current mill and my current jobs. So yet again you assume I question, I did not, I simply articulated I have a different situation. Truth Is what I have to deal with is different and I have to adapt. Which by its very nature requires an open mind. . And your not able to internalize that. Not in your make up. You see that as an attack. Me learning from multiple sources and adapting to my situation out here doesn't make me ignorant or what other label you would toss to attempt to get some level of respect for your self. Just means you can't imagine a world not as yours, so while I can see yours and understand u can't see mine. So who's the narrow minded one?

And as for "making money here or there" I suspect I've done that well enough in a variety of industries. I would counter your challenge. I HAVE made money selling logs. You can't even imagine the other places I have been successful. So...yeah that might be something arrogant to say. And I'll own that. The humility in me never would talk or brag about it especially on a place like this. as it's irrelevant and It doesn't freakin matter what I've done in the past. But the fact remains your approach would make it impossible to be successful in at lease three of the other industries I've been successful in. And I will own that admittedly arrogant statement Do I care? No not at all. Just wish u success and happiness in the place where you are comfortable. And that's right were u are , doing exactly what you know how to do, in a place where u understand the rules.

Have a question. How many acres do you own? Not a "mine is bigger than yours" question as you would most likely assume. Just a question.

 

[weimedog]

People get stuck on what someone they respect told them was facts, generally someone older or wearing a suit...
I've never been one to believe anyone's BS just cause they got old, less so if they are wearing a suit, or cowboy hat.
And yeah, if yer a dumb ass, I probably come off as arrogant, thats ok, I'll sleep like a baby tonight.

Obviously not. You are wound pretty tight when challenged. And My guess is you will sleep pretty well in a place you understand. But I can tell you with the attitude portrayed here you wouldn't be able to handle one where you don't understand the rules.

 

[northmanlogging]

Obviously not. You are wound pretty tight when challenged. And My guess is you will sleep pretty well in a place you understand. But I can tell you with the attitude portrayed here you wouldn't be able to handle one where you don't understand the rules.

well, here you go assuming again... lots of things I didn't understand when I started them, probably going to be plenty more, and I look forward to it.
As for starting off on the right foot, you see me as a bully, I see you as a fragile close minded ignoramus, gonna be real hard to change either of our minds.

 

[pdqdl]

You said:

I did that to flush out the typical approach from folks like you two. And frankly how easy it was to get you to blow.

I'm just letting you know:

“Trolling” is not permitted - posting controversial (sometimes off-topic) messages with the intent of baiting other users to reply will result in a warning.

Troll - Pot Stirrer for the fun of upsetting a forum.
Just for the entertainment of it.

Let's not have any more of this kind of conduct. Please.

 

[weimedog]

well, here you go assuming again... lots of things I didn't understand when I started them, probably going to be plenty more, and I look forward to it.
As for starting off on the right foot, you see me as a bully, I see you as a fragile close minded ignoramus, gonna be real hard to change either of our minds.

LOL love it this is great. Now I'm a what? That way too many letters for me to understand.

And I suspect are pretty good at what you do.

And yet again your post proves the point. Wow.

I don't WANT to change your mind. What do you perceive I would particularly want you to see different? I couldn't care less about what you think of me my stuff any of that. I want you to be absolutely successful and convicted in how you approach your lot in life. And don't particularly want you to change how you deal with me....what fun would that be?