I am fed up with people wanting topped trees....

[teamtree]

I will say first off I accept responsibility for this situation as a bad salesperson....so yes, I need to work on the "sell"....but here goes....

I go out to talk to a prospective customer (after an initial job site walk over to discuss what their trees need while I was removing a dead tree next door). I had asked if they wanted their trees topped and they said no. I even give them some literature from the ISA on topping trees and pruning trees properly. I explained I would thin the tree, remove duplicating limbs and crossovers and a slight crown reduction to reduce some weight on the tree next to the house. I should have keyed on them saying "trimmed and shaped". I told them I would not change the overall size and look of the tree and they gave me the go ahead. We showed up and trimmed two trees...one small one from the bucket and another in which Travis climbed it. Almost ever cut was made with a hand saw or pruner. A few with a MS200T. The trees were about 45' tall...One Silver Maple and one Red Maple. Pretty good structure on both of them. We were done in about 2 hours. I charged them $300. I thought we did an excellent job sticking to pruning standards.

The next day I get a call on my cell....hey this is Mike M....were you down at our house today....no...we were there yesterday....oh...when are you coming back....what do you mean....are you done....yes...are you kidding me....you did not do anything....we could have done what you did for $300....at this point he is chewing good on me and I could not get on top of the conversation and I get defensive....he hangs up on me....the whole time his wife is chewing ass in the background....so I call back and she answers the phone and continues to chew me out.....I tried to tell them that if they wanted their trees topped they can take the money they owe me and pay it to someone who will do that for them.....she goes on and says she will pay me but will never refer anyone to me ever. I have done work for the neighbors many times. She also said she could do what we did and I went off and told her she had no clue as to what we do and how we do it. I told her I will give her a saddle, rope and hand saw and see where she gets. Of course she smarts off and hangs up. Oh she does tell me the trees are too tall and need to be trimmed.

I then wrote a letter and apologize for the confusion and I would accept responsiblity for the mix up and I should have gotten a better understanding of what they wanted and I would have refused to do the work. I told them to keep their money. I told them to not refer anyone to me who does not understand good tree care practices.

OK...I have taken responsiblity for the screw up...what else can I do....especially when "trimming" means topping and so many want that. I am not a CA but I know good trimming practices...

Would you take their money or tell them to shove it?

 

[treemandan]

I will say first off I accept responsibility for this situation as a bad salesperson....so yes, I need to work on the "sell"....but here goes....

I go out to talk to a prospective customer (after an initial job site walk over to discuss what their trees need while I was removing a dead tree next door). I had asked if they wanted their trees topped and they said no. I even give them some literature from the ISA on topping trees and pruning trees properly. I explained I would thin the tree, remove duplicating limbs and crossovers and a slight crown reduction to reduce some weight on the tree next to the house. I should have keyed on them saying "trimmed and shaped". I told them I would not change the overall size and look of the tree and they gave me the go ahead. We showed up and trimmed two trees...one small one from the bucket and another in which Travis climbed it. Almost ever cut was made with a hand saw or pruner. A few with a MS200T. The trees were about 45' tall...One Silver Maple and one Red Maple. Pretty good structure on both of them. We were done in about 2 hours. I charged them $300. I thought we did an excellent job sticking to pruning standards.

The next day I get a call on my cell....hey this is Mike M....were you down at our house today....no...we were there yesterday....oh...when are you coming back....what do you mean....are you done....yes...are you kidding me....you did not do anything....we could have done what you did for $300....at this point he is chewing good on me and I could not get on top of the conversation and I get defensive....he hangs up on me....the whole time his wife is chewing ass in the background....so I call back and she answers the phone and continues to chew me out.....I tried to tell them that if they wanted their trees topped they can take the money they owe me and pay it to someone who will do that for them.....she goes on and says she will pay me but will never refer anyone to me ever. I have done work for the neighbors many times. She also said she could do what we did and I went off and told her she had no clue as to what we do and how we do it. I told her I will give her a saddle, rope and hand saw and see where she gets. Of course she smarts off and hangs up. Oh she does tell me the trees are too tall and need to be trimmed.

I then wrote a letter and apologize for the confusion and I would accept responsiblity for the mix up and I should have gotten a better understanding of what they wanted and I would have refused to do the work. I told them to keep their money. I told them to not refer anyone to me who does not understand good tree care practices.

OK...I have taken responsiblity for the screw up...what else can I do....especially when "trimming" means topping and so many want that. I am not a CA but I know good trimming practices...

Would you take their money or tell them to shove it?

Not enough white eyes? What pecentage did you take out of the trees? You are probably right about it. But you should have went back down there first thing and pointed to exactly what you took out, every branch, camly. As long as you did was was written you got 300 coming to you, its yours. You can do what you want but...

 

[Raymond]

See?

 

[treemandan]

See?

Raymond, please, for crying out loud what in the hell was that?

 

[Raymond]

Raymond, please, for crying out loud what in the hell was that?

Just a little something off the net, that I saved for occasions like this.

Like I said I do try and talk them out of topping.
Even to the point of referring to it as hammer phucking a tree.

Gotta go eat, you guys going to be around later?

 

[ropensaddle]

Maybe you could have pollard them, then sold reoccurring maintenance that comes with the semi accepted technique. Any how, I feel your pain many a customer does not understand proper phc the only recommendation I can give is; no matter how angry they make you smile be courteous don't let them win. It is easier said than done though but way better outcome from a business stand point. I have had to grit my teeth and give blind stares at customers in the past just so the hoof kept the mouth shut until I cooled down.

 

[Rftreeman]

oh just top the dang trees and get it over with...........

 

[John464]

the problem boils down to what is written on your estimate. If it just says trim maple on your written estimate or something vague. As we know, that could mean many different things in our mind and even more in the customers mind. They might be thinking one or more of the following; a thinning, elevate, topping, crown reduction, remove cossing branches, pollard, drop crotch, lion tailing, etc. the list goes on.

I suggest getting very detailed on trimming/pruning work on your estimate sheet. Maple Trimming- Reduce crown by approx 20%, thin tree for better wind resistance, remove dead and crossing branches, cut back side near house by 15ft, etc. Then get your LED pointer out and show them where 20% is. Then they say, no I want it cut here. Then you tell them why its not a good idea. Usually you can convey what is correct. If you explain and show them exactly what you will be doing you can normally get more $ for the job by giving them an accurate description of all you will be doing for them.

I think you still deserve to get paid. I would try and go back and do what they are expecting with them present on the job to make sure its to their liking. An unhappy customer on a street where you work often could cost you too much. Make them happy. Its probably not about the money and offering them to keep it is admitting you havent done your job. This issue iss probably about getting the service they expected(which hasn't been communicated)

Good luck man and I feel for you. These situations sometimes are unavoidable. Let us know how you make out. Dealing with customers is not easy.

 

[Labman]

Topping should slowly die out over the next 50 years.

 

[ozzy42]

I will say first off I accept responsibility for this situation as a bad salesperson....so yes, I need to work on the "sell"....but here goes....

I go out to talk to a prospective customer (after an initial job site walk over to discuss what their trees need while I was removing a dead tree next door). I had asked if they wanted their trees topped and they said no. I even give them some literature from the ISA on topping trees and pruning trees properly. I explained I would thin the tree, remove duplicating limbs and crossovers and a slight crown reduction to reduce some weight on the tree next to the house. I should have keyed on them saying "trimmed and shaped". I told them I would not change the overall size and look of the tree and they gave me the go ahead. We showed up and trimmed two trees...one small one from the bucket and another in which Travis climbed it. Almost ever cut was made with a hand saw or pruner. A few with a MS200T. The trees were about 45' tall...One Silver Maple and one Red Maple. Pretty good structure on both of them. We were done in about 2 hours. I charged them $300. I thought we did an excellent job sticking to pruning standards.

The next day I get a call on my cell....hey this is Mike M....were you down at our house today....no...we were there yesterday....oh...when are you coming back....what do you mean....are you done....yes...are you kidding me....you did not do anything....we could have done what you did for $300....at this point he is chewing good on me and I could not get on top of the conversation and I get defensive....he hangs up on me....the whole time his wife is chewing ass in the background....so I call back and she answers the phone and continues to chew me out.....I tried to tell them that if they wanted their trees topped they can take the money they owe me and pay it to someone who will do that for them.....she goes on and says she will pay me but will never refer anyone to me ever. I have done work for the neighbors many times. She also said she could do what we did and I went off and told her she had no clue as to what we do and how we do it. I told her I will give her a saddle, rope and hand saw and see where she gets. Of course she smarts off and hangs up. Oh she does tell me the trees are too tall and need to be trimmed.

I then wrote a letter and apologize for the confusion and I would accept responsiblity for the mix up and I should have gotten a better understanding of what they wanted and I would have refused to do the work. I told them to keep their money. I told them to not refer anyone to me who does not understand good tree care practices.

OK...I have taken responsiblity for the screw up...what else can I do....especially when "trimming" means topping and so many want that. I am not a CA but I know good trimming practices...

Would you take their money or tell them to shove it?

I think you were on the right track.Gave good professional advice then contracted to do the work ,as you described.
Myself ,I would demand my payment for services rendered,then quote them a price to top,or remove the tree if they wanted more.
In the end ,,,their tree,,,their money.

I don't want to start another spout with anybody on the issue of top/or no top,other than say most who refuse to top ,would gladly remove the same said tree,so if the customer wants to look at a pathetic looking tree for a few years ,and then decide to finally take it out.
Shame on them when they were told better,,,,not the tree man.

I look at it this way.You drive around town,and see an otherwise beautiful home ,painted some weird, and loud non contrasting colors.Doubt the painters wanted to do this to a lovely home,but they have to eat like everybody else.The HO makes the decision,as they have the checkbook.
Pride doesn't pay the bills.

 

[Slvrmple72]

It sounds like the classic " I paid $300 for NOTHING!? " They don't see how much came out of the tree. People who do not pay attention to their trees see little more than its profile. The significant amount of woody material removed in a thinning and cleaning doesn't register in their minds unless they are there to see the huge ass pile before it goes through the chipper! You did a job and should be paid for it. Next time be sure to clarify the work you will be doing on the written estimate. Next time don't mouth off to the customer too! Just fire up the saw and drop the tree on the house. Prune that sucker at the stump and tell'em cleanup is extra! I know how irritating customers like that can be! Hey, it's just cutting a tree, anybody can do that! LMAO! Good luck on this one! Let us know how it turns out.

 

[ddhlakebound]

I look at it this way.You drive around town,and see an otherwise beautiful home ,painted some weird, and loud non contrasting colors.Doubt the painters wanted to do this to a lovely home,but they have to eat like everybody else.The HO makes the decision,as they have the checkbook.
Pride doesn't pay the bills.

It's pretty easy to repaint the home, inantimate object that it is.....Regrowing the ruined tree could take half a century or so.

I disagree with the pride statement. Building a client list of people who use you BECAUSE they know they're trees won't be hacked is far more profitable (to me anyway) than bidding down in the muck with the topping crews. Most of those customers are only concerned with the lowest price anyway.

I had a similar situation to this last year on a beautiful black oak. It had a couple limbs broken from ice, some deadwood, and was hanging within a couple feet of the roof of the house which was about to be replaced.

I got the feeling early on that the homeowner (landlord) wanted as much material as possible removed from the tree. And I explained in clear terms that I would be taking NO live tissue off the tree other than to give the roof 6' of clearance, and very lightly prune the lower limbs for an extra foot of ground clearance, as well as taking out all the deadwood and breakage.

I really wanted to climb in that tree, and I knew what the tree would end up looking like if anyone else was hired for it. I dropped my price to match another bid, then spent an extra hour in the tree to leave it looking as good as I possibly could. I did exactly what I told the owner I was going to do.

That evening the phone is ringing because he wants to know when were coming back to trim that tree.

It's trimmed, exactly like I said I would, I tell him. Roof clearance, deadwood, breakage, and very light raise.

"Thats not what I call tree trimming", he says. "It's still got all it's leaves on it.

I calmly explained to him again that brutalizing that oak like he was invisioning would ruin it forever. And why.

"Well, thats still not what I call trimming, but the tenants said it looks wonderful, they loved it."

So he's starting to calm down, but his wife in the background was still going 90 miles an hour. He says...."hold on, my wife wants to talk to you...."

"Thats not worth near what it cost for you to hardly take any branches off, if you're not going to come back and trim it again, you should at least come back and trim the other tree in the front for free."

Mam, I already spent more time trimming the backyard oak than I bid the job for, and dropped my price to match the other bidders, so I'm sorry, but if you're wanting the front yard tree cleaned up, I'd be happy to give you an estimate, but there's just no way I'll do it for free.

Her: Rant, rant, tantrum, piss about, rant....

Me: I'm sorry you're unhappy, I really am, but I left that tree in as good of condition to be strong and healthy as could have possibly been done. Explain again why....

She never did really accept that what I was telling her was truth, but gave up and passed the phone back to the hubby.

Send me out an invoice, and I'll send you a check, thanks for the great cleanup. He paid up in timely fashion, but I doubt I'll ever be called back....I just leave too many of those pesky leaves on the tree.

No biggie, cash the check and be thankful for the customers who do get it....

Teamtree, you ought to be getting a check out of them....you did the work, and what was best for the tree. Next time, keep your cool in their presence, and get the payment you're owed for your hard work.

 

[treeclimber101]

See?

I know that guy from somewhere but he was much more hairy then..

 

[Raymond]

What we're fighting here is the best trims for trees or not as noticable to the general public.

 

[treeclimber101]

Your right trees don't need to hacked to be trimmed 25% of a large tree is nothing but people don't wanna feel like there getting ripped off..

 

[Raymond]

Your right trees don't need to hacked to be trimmed 25% of a large tree is nothing but people don't wanna feel like there getting ripped off..

Yep...I like when they watch me work and see what all comes out and sees me in an area where I could make one big cut or two and be done. But instead pick and choose limbs which in the long run is more work...And they see that and know I'm doing what is best for the tree.

 

[Raymond]

But then if they're just dead set on hammertime...
then it's hammertime they get.

Hey mamas got bills fellas.

 

[treemandan]

Something like this happened to me long ago, I was maybe 24. Ceasar, the retired Philly cop who own a beer distributor ask me to do some work, we agreed on a price after we both looked at it together. Everything was verbular.
I did the job and then , well, we went to the beer distributor. Seemed fitting, we were thirsty and that is where Ceasar was. I pick up a case of Porter and a wad of cash from Ceasar, I stick the cash in my pocket and roll. Got back to the ranch to find its half of what we talked about so I go back, he say " its really not worth more than that". I pointed out to my truck full of logs and my trailer full of brush and asked if he wanted it back. He forked the rest over while his heavily armed croonies eyeballed me.
Stupid cop, didn't even know shortdumping was illegal.

 

[booboo]

Kind of a tough situation but it happens.

1st...you did the work, you need to be paid for your time.

2nd...you do need to stay cool with the client, even if it is hard. Bad rep for being a "jerk" in the client's eyes will travel a lot further and do more damage than bad rep for "overcharging" or however they feel like describing it to others. $300 for pruning 2 trees with clean up, including bringing a bucket seems like a very reasonable, maybe even low, price.

3rd...detailed bids are very important. With repeat good clients, we may loose some detail and just put in "prune", "remove" etc...but our bids generally say stuff like "remove 2 lowest limbs toward house", "remove large deadwood", " thin and reduce leader over garage" etc...Sounds like you did everything you could, right down to giving them ISA literature. You can simply tell them "sorry for the misunderstanding but I'm not willing to top trees for a number of reasons and if you don't agree with that, I'm sure you can find someone who will top these for you." Walk away with a smile and a handshake if possible and don't look back. There are a handful of former clients that I will not work for if they called back, simply not worth the trouble. My .02

 

[tree md]

the problem boils down to what is written on your estimate. If it just says trim maple on your written estimate or something vague. As we know, that could mean many different things in our mind and even more in the customers mind. They might be thinking one or more of the following; a thinning, elevate, topping, crown reduction, remove cossing branches, pollard, drop crotch, lion tailing, etc. the list goes on.

I suggest getting very detailed on trimming/pruning work on your estimate sheet. Maple Trimming- Reduce crown by approx 20%, thin tree for better wind resistance, remove dead and crossing branches, cut back side near house by 15ft, etc. Then get your LED pointer out and show them where 20% is. Then they say, no I want it cut here. Then you tell them why its not a good idea. Usually you can convey what is correct. If you explain and show them exactly what you will be doing you can normally get more $ for the job by giving them an accurate description of all you will be doing for them.

I think you still deserve to get paid. I would try and go back and do what they are expecting with them present on the job to make sure its to their liking. An unhappy customer on a street where you work often could cost you too much. Make them happy. Its probably not about the money and offering them to keep it is admitting you havent done your job. This issue iss probably about getting the service they expected(which hasn't been communicated)

Good luck man and I feel for you. These situations sometimes are unavoidable. Let us know how you make out. Dealing with customers is not easy.

Sorry but I haven't read through the whole thread. I am with John tho. I write my estimates so tight (most of the time) that I have got it down to the exact number of limbs I will trim. I try to head off trouble before it begins..