I need a second opinion from a CA on this one ...

[the Aerialist]

Anybody who is a certified Arborist care to give an opinion about the possibility that the trees shown below could have been the cause of structural damage to the building? I have a report from a structural engineer that states that the trees could not have caused the damage shown in the attached photos. Best response if used earns $100 consultation fee. PM me for details.

It ain't rocket science but whadya think?

 

[derwoodii]

Looks an easy one,,, trees vs wall but 1st

Whats on the other side of that wall?
Are them trees from root suckers growing under from the other side? If so go see thy neighbour.
Odd kinda of masonry, looks like a window infill or ornate design. How thick what type of footings?
What species of trees was that, my guess from afar hmm Ash.
What the soil profile clay sand etc
What wording does that engineer report use to persuade the reader that the trees not the cause.
Who is the claiming what damages. Is it owner vs owner insurance job or ??
Whats behind that ivy?
Google address maps may help us.

Any hoo poison them stumps get ya money for the removals, let them fight out the legals.

$100 bucks ha, is that currency converted that be 110 US for 100 Aussie rocket dollar nay not to worry just happy to help if I can.

 

[the Aerialist]

Yes the tree did it but not by the means that looks most obvious. The trees' moisture demand increased the swelling and contraction of the soil under the building in the location where it was growing resulting in an unsecure footing.

In my report I cite the swelling caused by constriction of the roots at the point it contacted the buildings foundation, which is poured concrete. The analogy I gave was how your leg would swell if a tourniquet were applied. It is cinder block construction.

 

[the Aerialist]

Swimming with Sharks ...

Looks an easy one,,, trees vs wall but 1st

Whats on the other side of that wall?
Are them trees from root suckers growing under from the other side? If so go see thy neighbour.
Odd kinda of masonry, looks like a window infill or ornate design. How thick what type of footings?
What species of trees was that, my guess from afar hmm Ash.
What the soil profile clay sand etc
What wording does that engineer report use to persuade the reader that the trees not the cause.
Who is the claiming what damages. Is it owner vs owner insurance job or ??
Whats behind that ivy?
Google address maps may help us.

Any hoo poison them stumps get ya money for the removals, let them fight out the legals.

$100 bucks ha, is that currency converted that be 110 US for 100 Aussie rocket dollar nay not to worry just happy to help if I can.

It's a warehouse, the windows on that side were blocked in years ago. We are going to excavate the interior floor by cutting a slab out (with a Stihl cutting saw) It will be like a archeological dig, revealing the roots with a blower and paint brush.

The engineer states in his report that the growth of the tree over a three year period was not sufficient to lift the wall enough to crack it.

It's corporate lawyers trying to stick it to the little guy who owns the building. I'm fighting the good fight here. To me it's obvious, I just have to convince the Sharks to give up their bite on him. (Settle out of court).

 

[the Aerialist]

Well by all means correct me ...

No, you've got it wrong.

Where am I wrong? Please be specific and tell me why.

 

[derwoodii]

It's corporate lawyers trying to stick it to the little guy who owns the building. I'm fighting the good fight here. To me it's obvious, I just have to convince the Sharks to give up their bite on him. (Settle out of court).

Good on ya go n stick it to em, looks just too easy so,,, keep ya professional distance check you own liability cover for a counter punch. A settle be good avoid them courts, can be weird things not always deciding upon the facts and very happy to fix cost to all.

Be interesting to see pic's of what you find under that floor.

 

[the Aerialist]

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit ...

Can you quote research that supports your tourniquet theory?

"In my report I cite the swelling caused by constriction of the roots at the point it contacted the buildings foundation, which is poured concrete. The analogy I gave was how your leg would swell if a tourniquet were applied. It is cinder block construction. "

The "tourniquet theory" is in my cover letter to the report which I am still formulating, it's an analogy to make it clear to the layman just how swelling of the roots system can occur. Do you have a better one? I'm all for your technical treatise on this and will PayPal you $100 if I use it in my report. You are a certified arborist right?

 

[Treepedo]

Hi Doug
I see it as diameter increase, freeze and thaw, ground swelling from ground moisture mb but not so much, stem movement from crown loading.

I would add it is the responsibility of the wall's owner to maintain any trees that affect his property not the owner of the trees. If he doesn't protect his property/maintain safe and appropriate plant distances it is usually his fault.
Same things that apply for drainage, grade changes etcetera.
I think he is SOL especially if property line is involved.

Either way take what you can from this and let us know how it progresses.

I have done a fair amount of Insurance work and critiqued others reports only to find missing facts and untruths.

Get what you can for gathering the data and present it in a unbiased manner and you will see more of this type of work.

Hope this helps :msp_smile:

 

[treemandan]

In my report I cite the swelling caused by constriction of the roots at the point it contacted the buildings foundation, which is poured concrete. The analogy I gave was how your leg would swell if a tourniquet were applied. It is cinder block construction.

Now we're citing reports? Citing? Reports? Ufos? #### man #### looks like Landlord Luck. And that's the bad kind, the analogy I give is like not wanting to face facts bout that roid on yer butt till it blows.

In your case AA, if you got out and paid while it was still standing then you DO have Treeman Luck which is quite the opposite. Hey, btw, what's a CA ?:msp_tongue::msp_tongue: jess luva bubber.

 

[treemandan]

Can you quote research that supports your tourniquet theory?

"In my report I cite the swelling caused by constriction of the roots at the point it contacted the buildings foundation, which is poured concrete. The analogy I gave was how your leg would swell if a tourniquet were applied. It is cinder block construction. "

"ya got a sumac tree or two growin outchyor wall there doncha?" Would be the first words out of my mouth when I saw that mess. Hopefully, that would all I would need to say to provoke the yes or no answer I would be seeking to deliniate proper placement of the tourniquet. Jeez, from the looks of it on that job once to got one on you'd turn round and need another. I'd be blasting to the ER for a Diluadid drip and a kind face before all that.

But it looks like a fun job. I used to do a lot of sumac like that in the city. I would just go down with a tool truck and a have containers dropped if the wood was all crap and the streets were small and dangerous.

 

[treemandan]

Hah! Now I am thinking of my last BIG sumac and the wall it was in. They had just redone the wall and building below and NOW the idiot contractor is literally bleeding from the butt on his renovation project.

Now he realizes its a rather BIG roid growing out that wall over that newly done mainstreet building. Now he is willing to take a risk , roll on Landlord Luck. Sure, for him its just paint, spackle and a smile. Me? #### no! I WILL be headed to that ER. Or the contrctor will if he thinks I am going be responsible for his mess. Big sumac, yeah, big sumac in the wall.
If I had a nickle on that one alone.

I am to prima donna to wrangle that kind work but I ust ta. I'd give it like they wanted; Hack, Slash and be gone with the wall still standing while taking on the sights and sounds of the city.

 

[the Aerialist]

I think I'm gonna back off of this one ...

Hi Doug
I see it as diameter increase, freeze and thaw, ground swelling from ground moisture mb but not so much, stem movement from crown loading.

I would add it is the responsibility of the wall's owner to maintain any trees that affect his property not the owner of the trees. If he doesn't protect his property/maintain safe and appropriate plant distances it is usually his fault.
Same things that apply for drainage, grade changes etcetera.
I think he is SOL especially if property line is involved.

Either way take what you can from this and let us know how it progresses.

I have done a fair amount of Insurance work and critiqued others reports only to find missing facts and untruths.

Get what you can for gathering the data and present it in a unbiased manner and you will see more of this type of work.

Hope this helps :msp_smile:

Hey Thomas, good to hear from you. I think this consultation work is gonna bite me in the arse if I get too involved. The oppostition is gonna tear into me, and not being a CA (that's certified Arborist the Dan) they will shred my credibility (if any), as there are too many CAs overseeing the power line clearance rape of trees. Davey Tree Experts cut down the trees, and they are sure to be involved with a team of "experts" I felt for the guy, and would love to stick it to "the Man" by helping him win his case, but you've got to know when to fold, and I don't see a good chance for this guy to win this case.

There's to much money involved for them to roll over and settle out of court, they'll fight it and I am sure to get an invitation to be flayed before a Judge. I'm just gonna give him a letter saying in my opinion the trees caused the damage (which is irrefutable) and bow out as gracefully as I can.

 

[lxt]

AA,

Just write up a report telling what you see!! from a CA`s eyes & what we know about trees in proximity to structure....It should be a no-brainer? & Im not sure how the battle between a structural engineer & CA would go.......could be many different points!

I have done alot of consulting lately, people are more into enviromental conditions nowadays & when property damage is the topic.....it helps to not only be a CA but to be registered through the Atty generals office (Hic law) seems like Im doing more about trees causing/having caused problems than anything else!

Good luck on this & let us know what happens!


LXT..............

 

[the Aerialist]

Here's the letter ...

What follows is the text of the letter I wrote. I called the client and told him that that was the best I could do for him as a proper report would take more time than he had (due by Aug 2nd.) to give me for proper research and I pointed out to him that the would certainly call me in to gang bang me in front of the Judge, especially with certified arboristsm from Davey Tree. I had told him from our first meeting that I was not a "certified" arborist.

In my opinion the trees did damage to your building. Most people don’t realize that a tree grows beneath the ground level as much, or more, as it grows above the ground. A living tree grows at a glacial pace, but can and does generate glacial forces as it does so. There is also a great deal of force applied by the wind in the canopy of the tree. In times of heavy winds the tree becomes a lever working against the fulcrum that is the root base. This movement can cause considerable forces, in your case against the foundation of your building.
When a tree becomes root bound the roots swell, much as your arm would if placed in a tourniquet, this swelling can exceed normal growth, as indicated by the growth rings present in the slices I took from the three trees.
Your situation is not at all rare, a walk down any city sidewalk with trees present will give ample evidence of the damage a tree’s root system can do to concrete. In your case this damage is more severe than lifting sidewalks, but well within the capabilities of even a small tree.
With three large trees growing in direct contact with your building the damage was inevitable and could only be avoided by grinding the stumps out before they lifted your foundation and wall.


Thanks for all your help, especially Treepedo for a great assesment.

 

[Treepedo]

Will be hard to argue any one of those points.

Force measurement of root pressure as it is applied to solid object is the only missing hard data. This could be applied to any growing point(stem, bud or root).

I remember seeing an image in my studies of a root breaking thru a beer bootle to get to some media in the bottle. The bottle had the ceramic plug and spring steel clamp mb a Grolsch. Or an image of sewer roots penetrating a pipe.

The glacier analogy is excellent, ice swells and so must the water in the trees( in the winter water is moved outside the cells so they do not rupture and die. Trees with cracks will open and close with colder and warmer temps, respectively.

We removed a large sumac/Tree of Heaven Ailanthus many years ago growing out of a brown stone, when we finally got the stump ground and undercut away from the building it was quite visible the bricks pushed in with minor cracking. It was a double brick wall with a poured concrete base(no cracking).
The part against the wall took on the exact form of the brick work. Pretty cool.

Cheers. Early for beer but now I got a craving for one.

 

[the Aerialist]

Cut the deck from either side ...

Will be hard to argue any one of those points... Early for beer but now I got a craving for one.

It's always five o'clock somewhere Thomas, In fact it's 17:00 here right now. I'll have a Molson just for you.

It will also be hard to argue against any one of those points! That was the point. I suppose I could get a Subpoena to appear from either side, but I told my client that I charged $200 per hour for Court time so I don't think he will go there.

If the other side wants to bring me in I'll charge them $200 too.

 

[Garden Of Eden]

It's always five o'clock somewhere Thomas, In fact it's 17:00 here right now. I'll have a Molson just for you.

It will also be hard to argue against any one of those points! That was the point. I suppose I could get a Subpoena to appear from either side, but I told my client that I charged $200 per hour for Court time so I don't think he will go there.

If the other side wants to bring me in I'll charge them $200 too.

First, would be kinda hard to justify 200/hr for a non-professional. Plus, you can't charge dollar one if you're subpoenaed. If you're subpoenaed by say your clients attorney, and they ask for credentials, what would you say, its highly classified? Plus, in small claims, it will be near impossible to collect your fee. Not to mention the thousands of other "experts" that are subpoenaed daily, why don't they charge? Only way to charge is if you're asked to be an expert witness. Which you would call what exactly as your past experience with trees causing damage in walls??

Good luck columbo...