** I need help - PLEASE **

[durangoclimber]

First off I want to start by saying THANK GOD (or Alah, Buddha, or whoever) for this site. I am BRAND NEW to this industry and like most other things in life, being a Newb SUCKS. Most industries, sprots, or whatever, are filled with a bunch of old (not calling anyone old here) salts who'd rather bite their arm off then share their bread and butter experience with a Newb. So I was cautiously optimistic when I found this site and I become even more so as I read previous posts. I am not new to forums, or climbing for that matter, but I'll explain more later. That being said, I do have to say that this seems like THE place to ask my dumb questions.
So about me. I have been a climber (rocks/mountains/ice) not trees for about 15 years now. I was recently hurt pretty badly in a fall while bouldering. Bouldering is climbing without ropes due to your close proximity to the ground. We use crash pads instead. The short story is that I was on a highball problem (highball meaning "up there" - problem meaning "route") when I slipped right at the top and fell about 18 feet and missed a stack of five crash pads by about 4 inches, driving my right heal into the hard packed dirt. Broke the heel in half. For some OUTSTANDING surgery pics go to my blog www.lifeuphigh.blogspot.com if you have the stomach. I simply asked my surgeon if she would mind taking photos. Boy did she ever. So...I am down for a long time and probably changed for life. My wife and I had just moved to Durango Colorado about 3 years ago. It has been our dream for quite some time. Luckily I drive a desk so my inablity to get around doesn't matter much right now. Making a living in a resort town is damn near impossible. So as long as we have been here I have been doing side work ( I also weld) to make ends meet. We had/have always wanted to start our own business. Right after my first surgery I had a HUGE (150') pine removed from my yard. Watching this guy do this was like a slap in the face..."hey I have been climbing for long enough to understand how this works." Actually the methods he used were VERY similar to what we rock jocks use for big walls, fixing ropes, ascending, etc. I was a guide for approx 10 years prior to moving here so I am a huge critic of safety, especially when it pertains to climbing. These guys were safe, efficient, and courteous. So the other kicker is that I have runs saws and LOVED cutting wood, splitting, pruning, etc, for years.
So you guessed it - the lights went on and I thought "what a match". So I have spent the last three months researching. I ran a succesful guide service so I am no starnger to business. Therefore, I move forward very slowly and cautiously. The market is here. We live in a booming resort town with no shortage of new construction, acreage owned, and people who don't want to "go up there" and do it themselves. So I have some general questions.
First and foremost - bidding. I have never been in a line of work where I had to "bid" jobs. I have read several posts and love the idea of estimating my total time on a job and fixing a dollar figure to that. What is a good figure? I am clueless. $100 an hour???
Equipment - I have slowly started buying equipment - obviously I have ascenders, biners (carabiners) and slings. Is a "climbing" (rock) static line equivlent to what you guys use or should I go out and buy ropes specifically made for this industry. My life is priceless so I have no problem doing that. I have already started looking into harnesses/saddles since my climbing stuff is certainlly lacking what is necessary to do this job safely.
Sevices- we have been researching tree services and what they offer. Pruning and fire mitigation are HUGE round here. What about offering firewood in the winter. Seems like a no brainer. Is it? Tree removal is huge too.
Machinery - whe have purchased three saws thus far (Stihl - 210(limbing) - 361 and a 460. What about trialers and the almighty wood splitter - assuming the firewood end works out. We have looked at getting a couple of Stihl pruners too. The spurs, etc will come in time. We are looking at launching next summer.

Okay - that is enough for this post. I want to thank all of you in advance for not bashing me too badly. Yes I am new but I respect anyone and any advice that can and will be given. Thanks for taking the time to read this novel and HOPEFULLY help a Newb out. The big one for me is estimates. Oh- and I am on top of insurance..can't operate without it around these huge homes.
All the best,
Jim

 

[Toddppm]

Dang, you have ALOT of reading to do. 1rst off buy the Tree Climbers Companion, that will be a good start and only add to your questions but will alleviate all the painful newb ones right off the bat
Hate to say do a search but try to read through a bunch of your search results and don't waste too much time reading the BS for now.

It's all in here if you look for it. Sounds like you found your calling. Good luck.

 

[BCMA]

If you will spend the money and go to the TCIA EXPO that is coming up here real soon, I will spend a couple of hours with you, and give you the ins and outs of the tree care business. This EXPO would also be a good introduction to the industry.

http://128.241.193.252/index.aspx

 

[toddstreeservic]

I would say see if any of the local tree services are hireing. Start working for them for a year or two and see if it is really what you want to do. Pay attention and ask questions.

 

[durangoclimber]

Thanks

Thanks to all of you who have replied so far. Yes we know we have a ton of reading to do. Just today I received "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work" and when I read the replies I ordered the other book. We also ordered a 3 dvd set from Baileys on tree climbing. Thanks again to all of you. Please keep the feedback coming.
Jim

 

[durangoclimber]

Oh

And yes I think I found a calling that I can benefit from. I love being off the ground and the older I get (35 now) and the older my kids get, the less I am inclinded to do the BIGGER climbs.

 

[durangoclimber]

Offer

Believe me...I know. I am just not sure I can swing it on such a short notice. We are both on our laptops right now trying to figure out how we could do it. I know an "INCREDIBLE" offer when I see it.

 

[ropensaddle]

If you will spend the money and go to the TCIA EXPO that is coming up here real soon, I will spend a couple of hours with you, and give you the ins and outs of the tree care business. This EXPO would also be a good introduction to the industry.

http://128.241.193.252/index.aspx

So two hours with you and all the ins and outs are covered

 

[Slvrmple72]

Welcome to the site. Study and practice. Get on board with a local outfit and learn. Research the local companies carefully and try to get on board with one that demonstrates the same level of safety and competence that you have had in all of your years of climbing. Give that foot of yours a chance to heal ( nice pics ) In one respect you have honed a very important skill from climbing that will serve you well in treework: the ability to think your way through difficult situations while working at high heights. Memorize Fundamentals of Tree Work, it will serve you well. Whatever else you do for goodness sake :Stay away from powerlines and don't cut through your rope or throwline with your chainsaw or handsaw! Look at all of the threads on this site for helpful info. Got any other questions, feel free to ask!

 

[D Mc]

Jim, Welcome to the site.

Working in trees is a fantastic and rewarding career. There is a large diversity and, therefore, complexity. The fact that you have 15 years of rock climbing experience is a tremendous asset. Though trees are substantially different, at least your body has learned some of the automatic responses to weight shift on rope. One of the obstacles a new climber has to overcome are these responses. It is not good enough to "know" what you are suppose to do; in many situations your body needs to respond automatically.

In my experience, it takes most climbers 3 to 5 years to gain the experience necessary. Tree work is a combination of understanding what can go wrong and being able to get the job done regardless.

Some of your rock climbing equipment should be usable but you will want to set your business up to follow the ANSI standards. ANSI has their own recommendations on what you should be using. (Check out ANSI Z133.1)

I would suggest requesting Sherril and Wespur catalogs. Sherril's in particular has very nice descriptive pictures on equipment usage.

Tree climbing and removals are physically demanding and a rush. But do not overlook tree biology. Understanding trees and all their aspects, above and below ground, and how they interact with their environment is one of the most important things you will ever learn. This knowledge will allow you to stay in business through many years even after your physical abilities start to decline. With that in mind and knowing that you are desk bound for awhile I would also suggest studying for the Certified Arborist exam. There is a 3 year field experience requirement, unless you have some college in an appropriate field, so you have time to read a lot. The Arborist Study Guide will give you the basics and presents a broad range for the industry and is a good starting point. Harris' book, Arboriculture, Integrated Management of Landscape Trees, Shrubs and Vines is much more in depth.

To some of your more specific questions:

On bidding jobs. Your hourly rate will simply be how much you want to make an hour and how much it costs you to operate an hour. This varies widely through the regions. Your best business weapon in this area will be low overhead. Don't have large monthly payments that obligate you; keep your purchasing realistic and gradual. You don't need a lot.

We have been working years out of a 3/4 ton pickup with a small chipper.

Firewood in my experience, unless you go really big, has always been a break even situation. It can help keep things going in the slower times. If you can set your life up to utilize some of this wood, you will realize some significant side benefits.

If you can hook up with someone you respect in the tree business, whether through an apprenticeship or as an employee, this will save you a world of headache. Be wary of someone who states that it can ONLY be done "this way" or gives statements in absolutes. Tree work is working with biologicals, they are not mathematic equations. There are a lot of variances in the way things can or should be done.

Back to the equipment.

An excellent, inexpensive climbing saw is the Stihl 192T.
I would NOT recommend a power pruner. Get a high quality extendable pole saw such as one of the models from Silky or ARS.
Saddle: I currently use Sequoia SRT.
Rope: I use Velocity 11 mm. But as you know, ropes are very personal and there are a lot of good ones to choose from now.

Take your time and this can be a long and rewarding career.

Dave

 

[S Mc]

Jim, Welcome to this site and the industry. When you say "your wife and you" have always wanted to open a business....are you going to be working together? If so, I would like to talk with her also, please.

I have been working with my husband (that would be DMc) going on 25 years as his sole ground support. There are actually several husband and wife combos on this forum who could probably give excellent advice on working together and staying married.

A couple of things, Jim. Estimating is not the huge issue. Estimating correctly and well will come with time and experience as you discover how long it takes you to do each type of job.

You say you have experience in pruning, but I don't know what that means. Do you know your species and what they each can tolerate and how they should be pruned? Learn these important factors if you do not. One size does not fit all in this business. Each and every tree will present a different scenario and you need to learn all the variations, which obviously will take time and experience. As DMc said, watch out for absolutes; there are none in this industry. What the book says to do "all the time" will change depending on the circumstance. Learn what the various trees can tolerate and how they will respond.

With construction going on there are many concerns which come up when trying to save existing trees. Many people are totally unaware of the detrimental affect they are having on trees as they build. Learn about this. Forest interface/fire safety issues, can be another whole ball of wax as people start thinning and removing trees to create a "defense zone"; learn about all the issues involved with these. These can be excellent services to offer as people have little to no idea what issues can come up when they start building around trees or removing them to create a "safe zone".

A note on your rock climbing experience. Again, as others have stated, this is invaluable. However, in rock climbing you are not using a chain saw mid air, you are not cutting your wall or rock out from under or around you. You are not piling a bunch of brush and wood on top of your rope and tangling things up. You need to stay aware and know how a tree is going to respond as you cut it and how that is going to affect your position and rigging. I know a lot of the guys are probably rolling their eyes right now as I am not a climber; however, I work with the best. You ALWAYS stay alert to where your ropes are and the "cause and affect" of each action.

I would STRONGLY recommend you mentor with someone. A mistake in this area can cause your life. You have already learned that you are not immortal. That is a good thing.

Remember, this is a "word of mouth" business. YOU are the business, you are selling yourself, your service and your knowledge. The aspects that impressed you about the gentlemen that took down your tree were their skill, safety and courtesy. Keep all those things in mind.

Good luck and stay safe.

Sylvia

P.S. I will be happy to talk with your wife, if she would like.

 

[JTinaTree]

durangoclimber, There is only (ONE GOD) and its not the others you stated... I wish you well and educate yourself as much as you can, there is alot to learn in this bis.. I learn every time I go out!

 

[squad143]

Bust of luck. Lots of good advice here already. (Working for another company, books, etc.).

Try climbing in spurs for a while, that ankle of yours may not handle it. If you can, try doing this part-time. Start small, keep payments to a minimum (no payments at all - better still). Upgrade when you have the $$$. Never put yourself in a position where you can't walk away from a tree job if your concerned for your safety. NO JOB IS WORTH YOUR LIFE!!!! Remember to take time for your family.

 

[southsoundtree]

Durangoclimber-

Welcome.

Good idea on launching next summer. This will give you lots of time to heal and rehab, and plan, and plan, and research x10.

Be careful or you will become addicted to forums. I read three regularly. Count yourself lucky that your wife if interested. My fiancee thinks I'm online too much, however I assure her that its mostly research to be able to work more productively and safer.

I'm a long-time rock climber and just in my second year of working for myself. I come from a background of forestry and fuel reduction work, which dovetails well with climbing to turn into arborism (how's that for a made up word).

Something that doesn't come up much here are insects. Your fuel reduction work will need to be timed to not make things worse. Check with the CO extension service about fuel reduction and insects.

Your equipment is a starting point. If you want to use it for treework, pretty much accept that you'll need to dedicate it to pitchy work, with much bigger loads than rock climbing. I started out with a static rope (in the rock climbing sense. In tree climbing-ese static translates to more of "fixed" rope and SRT single rope technique.) and an old 11MM dynamic rope (again the rock definition. Tree-ese dynamic mean more that your rope moves when you climb and is not "fixed"). Screwgate carabiners are NOT for life-support in tree work.
When I say that your ropes will get you started, I mean just this. You will not want them for heavy rigging. You can start with economy tree ropes just fine.
An important factor in tree rigging is rope-bend radius. When a 170# climber has a dynamic belay on a dynamic rope with a .3" rope bend radius on a 'biner this is very different than any tree sitution.


As stated, start out with as little equipment that is financed as possible, and buy what you can walk away from.

Your welding skills will help you, both for trees stuff--fixing trailers, etc and as diversification of income generating services. Tree work, especially in snowy areas is very seasonal.

Bidding is more than figuring out your overhead and what you want to make per hour. Its is one of the more difficult things, as it isn't something that you can study like rigging forces, bugs, etc. It has to do with what you can produce, your salesmanship, your local market (which will vary from the richy rich second or third homeowners to the locals struggling to get by. If you try to charge the same rate for the same job to both people, you won't be getting enough work from the working class locals, and not charging enough for the millionaires. Sometimes people with loads of money will not go with a low price, or even middle price as they want the best. Also, people didn't get to be millionaires by wasting money. Your local competition will dictate some of this as well.

An important thing will be your advertising, as phone books only come out once per year, and some people don't replace them for several years because they've scribbled phone numbers etc in them.


Just some general points. Listen to everyone. Take nobody's word as the be-all-end-all.

Keep reading. Private Message PM me if you every feel like it, but again, everyone's input is very valuable. I just have my one, short-time-in-business perspective, though hopefully I'm not the dullest saw in the shed.

 

[durangoclimber]

Bust of luck. Lots of good advice here already. (Working for another company, books, etc.).

Try climbing in spurs for a while, that ankle of yours may not handle it. If you can, try doing this part-time. Start small, keep payments to a minimum (no payments at all - better still). Upgrade when you have the $$$. Never put yourself in a position where you can't walk away from a tree job if your concerned for your safety. NO JOB IS WORTH YOUR LIFE!!!! Remember to take time for your family.

WOW !!! Thanks to all of you. DMC and wife - I am going to send you a PM. By the way, this is FOR SURE a part time deal for us. As I said, making a living in Durango takes a ton of dedication and work. Extra work and more extra work. The median home price right now is around 400k. No kidding. Even for a shack. I didn't mention that I am also a VERY ACTIVE volunteer firefighter. Fire mitigation is HUGE HERE. In 2002 (when I was still "just" guiding out here and not living) there was a devastating fire. It was the Misionary Ridge fire. It actually burned right up to the street where I now live. It was HUGE. Do a google on it. Anyhow, I have learned a ton while working for the department. We aren't your typical volunteer dept. We work side by side with the paid guys. We are actually "part time". We get paid to pull shifts. I am an EMT so I pull a lot of shifts. What I am getting at is that we are all trained (I don't have my red card yet due to my injury) in Wildland Firefighting. After the 2002 fire, regulations changed, mindsets changed, etc. People pay rediculous amounts for fire mitigation. We have HUGE trophy homes/properties everywhere here. So I intend (and already help another firefighter) to do fire mitigation.
It is hard to describe to "non-climbers" (which I consider you guys REAL climbers by the way) the desire and need to be "up there". Just browse my blog archives. I love working up high. When I was guiding we taught 4 day self rescue classes. I am (unfortunately) all to aware of what can, and often does go wrong on a rope. Climbing a big wall (multi day climb where we sleep on the wall) is often described as a giant "cluster F%$&". Mainly because of the rope management issues and the extreme exhaustion involved. You guys are all great. I can't thank you all enough. My wife and I are excited. We do intend to keep researching, take it slow, keep the overhead WAY DOWN and do this on the side. I want to go out on a limb...that was funny right there, and put my personal email address out there. I would LOVE to stay in touch with you guys. Every one of you have been great. I hope I don't end up in SPAM hell for putting it out here but here I go

[email protected]

Once again thank you all and please keep the comments and ideas coming. I am already staying up late every night reading my book(s). I truly wish the local guys were as nice as you guys. Then I might be able to get out there and spend some time with a pro. Unfortunately it is hard to break through that ice in this area. Most working stiffs REALLY struggle to make a living here so they are reluctant to share their know how. We are still a "small" town. 15,000 - and a good deal of those aren't full time residents. It is a smallish market but growing. So if interested in staying in touch, please drop a line to my email address.
All the best.
Jim

 

[treeseer]

ropen he did not say "all"

durango, somewhere in all this gear andbiz considerations should be learning about trees so you can care for them intelligently. There is a productive niche in your community for tree CARE as opposed to tree cutting. see attached.

 

[BCMA]

If you are going to be successful in the tree care business, there are four legs to keep this table standing up.

1. The first leg is business operation. By all means, be honest, legal, and legitimate in your business operation. Please, do not go into business without the proper insurance, workman’s compensation, employee withholdings, safety requirements (ANSI Z133.1), DOT requirements, and other business requirements. This is where your membership with the TCIA comes in. They will help tremendously. We already have enough illegitimate tree services, and I’m sorry, but we do not need another one. I would estimate that over 50% of tree services are not legal in their business operation, and are in violation of state and federal laws. Do not 1099 employees, or pay them under the table. Learn business ethics. Take a class on how to start a business.

2. The second leg is arboriculture knowledge. Treeseer mentioned learning about trees. Study and get the knowledge so that you understand how trees and plants work. This is critical if you want to separate yourself from the general population and be recognized as a professional and qualified arborist. A good arborist will have a general knowledge of most of the natural sciences. That does not mean that people cannot do tree work that do not have the knowledge- there are. Some of them are very talented. This is where your membership with the ISA, and becoming a certified arborist will be of tremendous help. Becoming a certified arborist is just the beginning of a lifetime of learning.

3. The third leg is sales and contracting. You need to be able to sell yourself and your services. Your sales should be knowledge based and services oriented. Do you know enough about trees to give proper recommendations? Do you know the pitfalls of contracting tree work. If not, you will learn fast. There will be some customers that will give you some lessons real fast, and some of the lessons will come hard. Sometimes this is the only way to learn those lessons, unless you have a very good mentor.

4. The last leg is your skill of performing tree work. I have always said that it takes about five years for someone to become a skilled craftsman at this trade. There is a lot to learn in this area. Both the ISA and TCIA have a lot of training material that you NEED to buy and study this material. I pretty much have everything there is to buy, and after twenty three years in the business, I'm still studying and learning. Plan on spending a couple of thousand bucks and then devote yourself to learning this material. This amount of money is cheap compared to a broken neck!

Also join and support the ISA and TCIA. These are our national organizations that you will derive great benefit from.

Good Luck! You very well may be the next Davey Tree!

 

[durangoclimber]

ropen he did not say "all"

durango, somewhere in all this gear andbiz considerations should be learning about trees so you can care for them intelligently. There is a productive niche in your community for tree CARE as opposed to tree cutting. see attached.

Thanks for these PDF's. Any suggestions on literature, classes, etc, regarding tree care would be greatly appreciated. This is (and we knew this) going to be a slow process. We are just cautious both off the ground, with the business aspects, and will learning to do things the "right way".
Jim

 

[durangoclimber]

Bcma

BCMA - Good info. You are absolutelyright. When we were running our guide service, we were devastated (almost on a weekly basis) by the "fly by the seat of your pants" - hack job - guides out there. Uninsured, accident prone, unprofessional and just down right dangerous. I spent 15 years putting up with that crap. That is why we are asking so many questions. I have looked into both organizations you mentioned and plan on joining both. My wife and I are both looking for literature, websites, etc to give us the knowlege (or start if you will) to understand the "science" of all this better. So please throw any suggestions you can. You sound like you are a good business person and that is nice to know. Just doing this out of the back of our trucks with no insurance, planning, or education, is a big NO NO in our book. We take things slow. We don't squander our money and we have a strong business ethic. It is good to hear you say these things. We appreciate your feedback.
Jim

 

[ropensaddle]

If you are going to be successful in the tree care business, there are four legs to keep this table standing up.

1. The first leg is business operation. By all means, be honest, legal, and legitimate in your business operation. Please, do not go into business without the proper insurance, workman’s compensation, employee withholdings, safety requirements (ANSI Z133.1), DOT requirements, and other business requirements. This is where your membership with the TCIA comes in. They will help tremendously. We already have enough illegitimate tree services, and I’m sorry, but we do not need another one. I would estimate that over 50% of tree services are not legal in their business operation, and are in violation of state and federal laws. Do not 1099 employees, or pay them under the table. Learn business ethics. Take a class on how to start a business.

2. The second leg is arboriculture knowledge. Treeseer mentioned learning about trees. Study and get the knowledge so that you understand how trees and plants work. This is critical if you want to separate yourself from the general population and be recognized as a professional and qualified arborist. A good arborist will have a general knowledge of most of the natural sciences. That does not mean that people cannot do tree work that do not have the knowledge- there are. Some of them are very talented. This is where your membership with the ISA, and becoming a certified arborist will be of tremendous help. Becoming a certified arborist is just the beginning of a lifetime of learning.

3. The third leg is sales and contracting. You need to be able to sell yourself and your services. Your sales should be knowledge based and services oriented. Do you know enough about trees to give proper recommendations? Do you know the pitfalls of contracting tree work. If not, you will learn fast. There will be some customers that will give you some lessons real fast, and some of the lessons will come hard. Sometimes this is the only way to learn those lessons, unless you have a very good mentor.

4. The last leg is your skill of performing tree work. I have always said that it takes about five years for someone to become a skilled craftsman at this trade. There is a lot to learn in this area. Both the ISA and TCIA have a lot of training material that you NEED to buy and study this material. I pretty much have everything there is to buy, and after twenty three years in the business, I'm still studying and learning. Plan on spending a couple of thousand bucks and then devote yourself to learning this material. This amount of money is cheap compared to a broken neck!

Also join and support the ISA and TCIA. These are our national organizations that you will derive great benefit from.

Good Luck! You very well may be the next Davey Tree!

The big problem with your post is; number one will cut almost any
small operator out of business immediate and illegitimate is code
for not wealthy! I try to be legit in my practice the only exception
is; workers "con" comp it is way over priced and the most abused
system we have. I do still remain legit by using temporary service
that pays this included in the labor charge. This is all to keep the
small guy out of the picture imho.