In over my head....... HELP!!!!!!

[Jmulford]

yes I already called Central Boiler with the numbers off of it. they said its the pex they sent with that model when it was ordered, I have the paperwork with the info on what was bought. and they said those clamps work with the fittings used since its not high pressure.

 

[Greenerpastures]

Hi, did I read this correctly when you say you have no heating up stairs.
If so can we take it there is hearing somewhere in the house, and as such
the system is working to this extent, if so check that pumps, timers, and
valves, whether they be electronic or manual are working, and most important
there should be a blow off valve or valves in the system to ensure you don't
end up like rocket man, hanging onto a boiler as you both are taken through the
roof or wall.

A perfectly working heating system will not put water up past a certain height,
unless conditions are met.

One tank in particular, is used as an expansion / overflow for an appliance
such as a wood stove or any other such stove to heat water, must be well above
the highest radiator, in order to keep pressure in the system, the pumps that curculate
water from your boiler or stove are not pressurised, they only add momentum, you need
the weight of the water in that expansion tank to force the water around, especially
around an up to the upper level of the house.

I think you are using what we call radiators, that are fed hot in one side and the coller
water then comes out the other and back to the boiler or stove for re heating.
If so, ther will be two valves on every radiator, one valve usually has a knob on it,
this is so the house owner can adjust the heat, close it for no heat, the valve at the opposite end of the radiators, is even more important, it must be almost closed, for it
it is not, this is to ensure the water remains under pressure and will infact rise up to the higher levells.

People also zone their rooms, or floors so they can for example turn off a complete
floor when the visitors are all gone back to where ever, no point in heating a complete
floor when no one is up there, smaller homes zone rooms, so what am saying is to look for valves that could be turned off, and thus no water or hear will ever get past that point.

I doubt that someone with an engineering degree would mess up too much, or indeed
live in the cold as a result.

The heating system might have more going or it than you think.

Also, if you are heating water for radiators or any other use with a stove or such
that can not for obvious reasons be controlled, then an open or vented system
is a must, you can not have a closed system because there is no way to control the output of an open fire stove or such device, gas can be turned off via a stat, so can oil
fuelled boilers, but not wood stoves or coal stoves, modern devices can damp them down, put less air into them and sorts, but that is not enough to safely run such a stove on a closed loop.

You also need copper or steel piping for about six foot from the outlet of the stove, this keeps the water from melting the other types, ive seen it happen.
Your central heating pump should also be set to come on as soon as the heat begins to rise when using a stove or open fire, in a gas or oil heater the pump can come on when you reach a certain temprature and is safe enough doing so.
The few gallons of water in the boiler in a stove or open fire will heat much more rapidly, and that pump needs to start very early on, and make sure the temprature sensor that starts the pump is about six inches away form the outlet of stove on the hot pipe, place it a few feet away and the water will not circulate and the sensor will never get the signal to start the pump in time, you will hear your boiler jumping knocking and vibrating, a very serious situation builds up in a matter of minutes.

Regards, john

 

[Jmulford]

That manifold is for radiant flooring allowing for many loops and the temperature to be adjusted.

You need to get the PB piped back into the house loop and get that functional. Then I'd worry about the owb. Pipe a hx in somewhere convenient in the main loop and you can hook the owb up there. I don't know much about owb but I know about boilers and all the piping involved to heat stuff.

There are different types of loops in a house and sometimes there are zone valves. There is a basic idea of supply and return. You could have a mono flow loop where there's one main loop and each small base board comes off that. You could have one main loop that goes around the house or you could have zones with a few smaller loops for parts of the house. Or the same few loops and no zones. You need to know how it's piped and how it works to install the boiler correctly. Then you need a way to bleed all the air out of the lines so it heats.

The PB is toast, I had it checked before and I don't have $2K-$4K for that to be replaced. The heat worked most of last winter just upstairs was not getting heat

 

[Jmulford]

Hi, did I read this correctly when you say you have no heating up stairs.
If so can we take it there is hearing somewhere in the house, and as such
the system is working to this extent, if so check that pumps, timers, and
valves, whether they be electronic or manual are working, and most important
there should be a blow off valve or valves in the system to ensure you don't
end up like rocket man, hanging onto a boiler as you both are taken through the
roof or wall.

A perfectly working heating system will not put water up past a certain height,
unless conditions are met.

One tank in particular, is used as an expansion / overflow for an appliance
such as a wood stove or any other such stove to heat water, must be well above
the highest radiator, in order to keep pressure in the system, the pumps that curculate
water from your boiler or stove are not pressurised, they only add momentum, you need
the weight of the water in that expansion tank to force the water around, especially
around an up to the upper level of the house.

I think you are using what we call radiators, that are fed hot in one side and the coller
water then comes out the other and back to the boiler or stove for re heating.
If so, ther will be two valves on every radiator, one valve usually has a knob on it,
this is so the house owner can adjust the heat, close it for no heat, the valve at the opposite end of the radiators, is even more important, it must be almost closed, for it
it is not, this is to ensure the water remains under pressure and will infact rise up to the higher levells.

People also zone their rooms, or floors so they can for example turn off a complete
floor when the visitors are all gone back to where ever, no point in heating a complete
floor when no one is up there, smaller homes zone rooms, so what am saying is to look for valves that could be turned off, and thus no water or hear will ever get past that point.

I doubt that someone with an engineering degree would mess up too much, or indeed
live in the cold as a result.

The heating system might have more going or it than you think.

Also, if you are heating water for radiators or any other use with a stove or such
that can not for obvious reasons be controlled, then an open or vented system
is a must, you can not have a closed system because there is no way to control the output of an open fire stove or such device, gas can be turned off via a stat, so can oil
fuelled boilers, but not wood stoves or coal stoves, modern devices can damp them down, put less air into them and sorts, but that is not enough to safely run such a stove on a closed loop.

You also need copper or steel piping for about six foot from the outlet of the stove, this keeps the water from melting the other types, ive seen it happen.

Regards, john

It is not radiators it is just the baseboard units that are just copper with fins with a hot in and a cold out

 

[Mustang71]

If all your valves are open then I'd think you have air in the upstairs loop. Do the base boards get hot?

 

[Greenerpastures]

yes I already called Central Boiler with the numbers off of it. they said its the pex they sent with that model when it was ordered, I have the paperwork with the info on what was bought. and they said those clamps work with the fittings used since its not high pressure.

It is not radiators it is just the baseboard units that are just copper with fins with a hot in and a cold out

No problem, baseboard is exact same principle as radiators.
Getting heat upstairs may and does require all the vavles on all the baseboard units to be shut, start the hearing system, start at the lower levell, and find the pipe that gets hot first at each unit, then open this half way at most, this will hear the unit, the second valve on the unit should only be opend a quarter turn, this will ensure there will be enough pressure from the hot sied to rise up to the next floor, and the next floor, ther is a limit on how high you can go, without employing more expensive high pressure hearing pumps, we rarely use them at all in Ireland, so not saying you won't need one, but even if you do, same principle applies and puts less strain on any given pump.
I also put the pump on the cold side, where the water is pulled back into the bottom of the boiler for re hearing, keeps it from over heating, just ensure you are pulling water into the bottom of the boiler and not pusing it back out in the wrong direction.
If it is or was working, then it only needs tweaked, unless something broke or was blocked or changed,
air getting into the system is one sure way of breaking it, restricts flow and can even cause it to completely stop flowing, so bleed the system, we usualy have bleaders in the system, and of course bleed the baseboard units one by one, at both ends of the units if this is doable.

 

[Jmulford]

If all your valves are open then I'd think you have air in the upstairs loop. Do the base boards get hot?

nope and you can hear gurgling in the system, there is no air bleeds anywhere upstars
I will upload a pic of what the manual shows

 

[Jmulford]

No problem, baseboard is exact same principle as radiators.
Getting hear upstairs may and does require all the vavles on all the baseboard units to be shut, start the hearing system, start at the lower levell, and find the pipe that gets hot first at each unit, then open this half way at most, this will hear the unit, the second valve on the unit should only be opend a quarter turn, this will ensure there will be enough pressure from the hot sied to rise up to the next floor, and the next floor, ther is a limit on how high you can go, without employing more expensive high pressure hearing pumps, we rarely use them at all in Ireland, so not saying you won't need one, but even if you do, same principle applies and puts less strain on any given pump.
I also put the pump on the cold side, where the water is pulled back into the bottom of the boiler for re hearing, keeps it from over heating, just ensure you are pulling water into the bottom of the boiler and not pusing it back out in the wrong direction.
If it is or was working, then it only needs tweaked, unless something broke or was blocked or changed.

The problem is all the valves for the manifold are junk and stuck wide open (as they were when I moved in) and there are no return valves. that is why I was going to install that manifold to try to have valves for feed and return for each room

 

[Greenerpastures]

Do the baseboard units not have small screws of some sort near the top corners of each unit, these are for bleeding the air out of the units.

 

[Greenerpastures]

The problem is all the valves for the manifold are junk and stuck wide open (as they were when I moved in) and there are no return valves. that is why I was going to install that manifold to try to have valves for feed and return for each room

As long as they are stuck open then at least water will flow, they are handy for turning off a complet zone or circuit, but the same can be done by turning off the baseboard units at the end with the knob designated for the home owner to use, the other end of such units usually has a freely rotating knob on it, this is the end set by the installer to ensure the water gets the best chance of rising up to the higher levells, usually one takes it off, momentarilary puts on a fixed knob, adjusts, and puts back the one that keeps house wife from tampering. In any event to turn off a unit, only one end needs to be closed, and thats the one the home owner uses as it can not mess up the balancing of the system.
You don't need similar valves in the returns, one valve closed and the circuit wont flow,
and you also have to mind that there has to be an opening to vent the system in the event
of over heating or pump failure, so be carefull where you think you need a valve.

 

[Jmulford]

Do the baseboard units not have small screws of some sort near the top corners of each unit, these are for bleeding the air out of the units.

nope they dont

 

[Greenerpastures]

nope they dont

Thats not so good, are you sure they are not countersunk or painted over, they can even be in the back of the units facing the wall, where they are difficult to see or open.
Either way, air has got to get out, I start at the boiler or what ever appliance is providing the heat, and bleed from there, circulating pumps here also have a small bleed screw in them and this may be where you need to start, there is also usually a valve on the pumps that closes them completely, do not mistake it for the pump bleeding screw, as if
they are moved they usually leak, in any event the bleeder on the pump is usually in the middle of the housing on the front facing the installer so it can be used.

 

[Jmulford]

 

[Mustang71]

If you have no bleeder and no way of getting the air out then you can always solder a bleeder 90 in the last base board return side or if you absolutely have to take a self piercing saddle valve for like an ice maker and put that on the last base board return to get the air out.

 

[Greenerpastures]

Hi, that system in the image is a closed system, it really does not matter
in regard to having no water flowing to your baseboards, have you any hot water
going to fawcets, is there a tank in the system that is getting hot, for fawcets etc.

Is there not a bleeder on top of that expansion / pressure vessel to the right of the
heater in the above image, is there a clock on the vessel and is there any pressure on it.

 

[Jmulford]

If you have no bleeder and no way of getting the air out then you can always solder a bleeder 90 in the last base board return side or if you absolutely have to take a self piercing saddle valve for like an ice maker and put that on the last base board return to get the air out.

That saddle valve idea is genius! Never occurred to me if that was even an option for an air bleed

 

[Mustang71]

I've done it once it twice in a pinch. I'm no engineer just a hvac guy lol.

 

[NSMaple1]

Fundamental factor - is the heating system (that the baseboards are a part of) closed/pressurized?

Are there any pressure gauges, anywhere?

This is one seriously mickey moused cobbled up setup. (No offense Mickey...)

 

[Coldfront]

I live in a very old farm house as well and no upstairs heat also. I guess they figured heat rises and big open space where stairs go up for heat to rise. Surprisingly it really does warm up nice up there if you leave all the bedroom doors open. I did put some small electric baseboard heaters in the bedrooms in case it really gets cold. There are no vents and no easy way to get heat up there besides natural convection. Just the way it was I guess back in the day.

 

[Oxford]

And really the main boiler loop and the owb loop should be separate and have a heat exchanger transferring the heat. There's no reason to be removing anything when adding on a wood boiler.

Truer words were never spoken. Get the original propane boiler loop back together. I know the boiler is toast, but it shouldn't be running anyway if the OWB is running. This will let you fill the system and put a static charge of 12 psi on it, which ensures that you have water all the way to the top of the building. This is why you don't have heat upstairs: your open system doesn't have enough pump to get water all the way to the second floor, and your junk manifold creates a path of least resistance through the first floor radiators for the flow that you do have. You need to create some increased resistance in the first floor circuits to create flow upstairs. Ideally, this would be done with thermostatically controlled zone valves, but you can do it by throttling manual valves, putting orifices in, or smashing the pipe (don't do that.) once you've done all that, put a heat exchanger in the loop and pipe the OWB to the other side of that. Pump that loop, and all will be well. Not really, but it will be a lot better. Look up Kevin in Ohio's install to see how it should be done.