I am the owner of a tree service in NC that has been in business for over 50 years. I am seriously considering getting out of the business due to high Workers Comp rates. NC rates are .41 on the dollar. Anyone else out there having problems meeting the high cost of overhead? Can't seem to raise our prices without getting undercut by someone without insurance.
Insurance Rates
- Thread starter kpb
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I hear ya!! last year mine went up to .42 on the dollar?? im pretty sure this was the number, somewhere in there anyhow!! I just quit caring & plug on!! right now its at .36 a dollar, but I havent got the new rates for the year!
Tax refund ha! mine will be going for other taxes that have been raised!! & no doubt increased biz expenses, so with my refund Ill still be in the hole!!
Ive been thinking about moving on too!! funny uhh, the legit biz`s move on & the hacks keep on keepin on!!! & we wonder why this trade gets no respect!!
LXT................
Tax refund ha! mine will be going for other taxes that have been raised!! & no doubt increased biz expenses, so with my refund Ill still be in the hole!!
Ive been thinking about moving on too!! funny uhh, the legit biz`s move on & the hacks keep on keepin on!!! & we wonder why this trade gets no respect!!
LXT................
kkottemann
ArboristSite Operative
Chew on this....81 cents on the dollar. that is the best I get. I have only been in business for 4 years, and my payroll is not that much, which is why they cite me that rate. I about ready to bow out myself. No profit, just seem to make the notes and insurance bills.
timberwolf tree
ArboristSite Member
its crazy i pay 29 per hundred
you can't be competitive with these rates
the best thing to do is what the government doesn't want to hear ,pay some of your pay roll in cash its the only way
because it's like you said if you add it in the price the Gypsy's will undercut you
you can't be competitive with these rates
the best thing to do is what the government doesn't want to hear ,pay some of your pay roll in cash its the only way
because it's like you said if you add it in the price the Gypsy's will undercut you
hoot gibson
ArboristSite Operative
its the same no matter what you do for a living . i was forced to quit and now i have a partner , cant do the big jobs , but can still survive, i am a carpenter of 33 years . maybe with enough calls the government could pass a law so that you have to be licensed , and even fine the home owner for hiring someone who is not , h
gr8scott72
Addicted to ArboristSite
Licensed? I'd be happy just to have it where the home owner had to at least hire an AMERICAN!
mckeetree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Now ain't that the truth.
fireman
ArboristSite Operative
insurance
you guys are right it is so expensive for insurance, workmans comp ,fuel and the price of equipment.we pay every bit of .39 for comp and its going up.you try to do all the repairs on equipment but when you cant its $2500 there or $1000 over here and then when you go bid a job that you think is fair and the say thats so high.my prices havent gone up in years.like you said we have a lot hacks running around under bidding then they screw up the job and we are supposed to fix it.homeowners dont realize if they dont have insurance they liable for all the damage.people have to be informed.but worse of all are the guys doing side jobs that work for a company and want extra cash.these are the guys that are only hurting themselves in the long run.the companies have to bid against them which lowers there prices and then every one loses with lower wages and less work.if you are legit doing side work have state id pay insurance then this doesnt pertain to you.but the guys that dont have insurance and just doing it for cash you are hurting the business and giving the industry a bad name.
you guys are right it is so expensive for insurance, workmans comp ,fuel and the price of equipment.we pay every bit of .39 for comp and its going up.you try to do all the repairs on equipment but when you cant its $2500 there or $1000 over here and then when you go bid a job that you think is fair and the say thats so high.my prices havent gone up in years.like you said we have a lot hacks running around under bidding then they screw up the job and we are supposed to fix it.homeowners dont realize if they dont have insurance they liable for all the damage.people have to be informed.but worse of all are the guys doing side jobs that work for a company and want extra cash.these are the guys that are only hurting themselves in the long run.the companies have to bid against them which lowers there prices and then every one loses with lower wages and less work.if you are legit doing side work have state id pay insurance then this doesnt pertain to you.but the guys that dont have insurance and just doing it for cash you are hurting the business and giving the industry a bad name.
treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
I pay my insurance, have the proper coverage... and am happy to be able to do so. That said... I am not a big advocate of licensing. The county where I live requires a license to do any home improvement work within the county. Costs about $300? every other year. What I dislike about it, is that they take the money and run. They do NOTHING to earn it. All they do is run around like the gastappo(sp?) and fine the guys who don't have it. Take trucks, equipment, etc. if you don't give them the money. Basically a union shop type deal. You get the license, and the fine goes away. There's no test to take, and all they want to see is that you have insurance... they don't care what kind, and you don't need to show comp either. You can even cancel your policy a few days after you get your license... they don't care.
Just like when I go and do stuff for my pesticide license.. the DEC will come and fine me if my stuff isn't up to snuff. However, any unlicensed schmo out there can go get a pallet of fertilizer, weed killer, insecticide, etc. and apply it without a care in the world.
Just like when I go and do stuff for my pesticide license.. the DEC will come and fine me if my stuff isn't up to snuff. However, any unlicensed schmo out there can go get a pallet of fertilizer, weed killer, insecticide, etc. and apply it without a care in the world.
pbtree
Addicted to ArboristSite
Amen!
Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
Isn't there some kind of way to get around workman's comp creatively and legally?
Just asking. Forgive me, I'm kinda new to all of this biz talk, but have always considered stepping out on my own possibly.
Right now I'm working on a stump service project where it will just be me on the weekends.
Bring em down during the week, dig em out on the weekend type thing.
Just asking. Forgive me, I'm kinda new to all of this biz talk, but have always considered stepping out on my own possibly.
Right now I'm working on a stump service project where it will just be me on the weekends.
Bring em down during the week, dig em out on the weekend type thing.
timberwolf tree
ArboristSite Member
well there is a couple of ways around it
1 1099 your employees the only catch is when and if you get audited they want to see that you proof of their insurance and comp
if its just you and you are a LLc you don't need to carry comp on yourself
if your partners form a llc neither one of you with need comp because you both would be considered members of the business
the only other option that i know about that is crazy unless its your wife or a family member who will be a long term employee isssssss after forming a llc you give them 1% of the business this also allows them to be members of the business, but the problem there is you cant get rid of them so quickly with out a buy out option that if your smart you prepared and notarized before all this occurred
hope this helps
1 1099 your employees the only catch is when and if you get audited they want to see that you proof of their insurance and comp
if its just you and you are a LLc you don't need to carry comp on yourself
if your partners form a llc neither one of you with need comp because you both would be considered members of the business
the only other option that i know about that is crazy unless its your wife or a family member who will be a long term employee isssssss after forming a llc you give them 1% of the business this also allows them to be members of the business, but the problem there is you cant get rid of them so quickly with out a buy out option that if your smart you prepared and notarized before all this occurred
hope this helps
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Isn't there some kind of way to get around workman's comp creatively and legally?
Just asking. Forgive me, I'm kinda new to all of this biz talk, but have always considered stepping out on my own possibly.
Right now I'm working on a stump service project where it will just be me on the weekends.
Bring em down during the week, dig em out on the weekend type thing.
Sure there is, I know guys that have their men fill out W4`s & 1099 them at the end of the year, I know another guy who has his biz set up as an employee owned company...........there are ways, However when biz gets slow(winter) they loose their work force & have to start all over again year after year, I like to keep the same guys & if were slow at least they get unemployment & weather its there for them or not they pay into social security!!
All these ways are legal, I know biz`s that didnt hire me because the guy with no W.comp was significantly cheaper, even though they understood I had it & he didnt...........bottom line "Im not gonna pay alot for this tree". so in some ways it hurts you & other ways it helps you!!
It just needs regulated, I actually had my one man ask me if he could sign a waiver & not have comp paid for him but instead have me give him a .42 cent an hr raise?? I though wow what an idea!!.......um NO!!!! but you cant blame him I couldnt give a big raise cause my rates went up & the more I pay him the more comp makes, I actually explained it to my guys so they`d understand.
who knows.........soon only illegals will be working!!!LXT...........
Not so!! they dont need comp cause they are self employed contractors, proof of insurance doesnt mean anything, they can cancel that policy tommorrow & the certificate they sent you means nothing.
1099 misc would be the way to go, IRS says all money earned must be reported how you earned it doesnt matter!! I dont know what law would be broke if someone cant provide insurance, In PA there is no license for tree work so therefore I dont know of any law that says you must carry insurance to do such, heres where legit biz`s get jammed!!!
everyone knows this happens but to stop it or enforce a law against it would probably have some economic hardship impact, atleast thats the talk!!
LXT...............
Think carefully before providing 1099's. The IRS (after an audit) says my workers are considered employees not subcontractors.
Also my insurance company requires that all subcontractors have workers comp insurance. If audited, I must provide this or pay it myself.
In a nut shell, if I run legal, I must provide a W-2, pay payroll taxes, and carry workers comp on all employees unless I drop down to myself and 1 employee. A company with under 3 employees is not required to carry workers comp. I am also included in headcount even though I am exempt from coverage.
Again, check your state regulations. It is my understanding that some are different than others.
Also my insurance company requires that all subcontractors have workers comp insurance. If audited, I must provide this or pay it myself.
In a nut shell, if I run legal, I must provide a W-2, pay payroll taxes, and carry workers comp on all employees unless I drop down to myself and 1 employee. A company with under 3 employees is not required to carry workers comp. I am also included in headcount even though I am exempt from coverage.
Again, check your state regulations. It is my understanding that some are different than others.
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treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
In NY there is a law SOMEWHERE that states you must have comp if you have even so much as 1 employee, or a sub contractor. The only exclusion is corporate officers, and I think the cap on that is either 3 or 4. I worked for one guy a few times who used to do re-insurance down in Jersey. He told me that down there at the time a company with less than 4 or 5 employees wasn't required by state law to have comp.
timberwolf tree
ArboristSite Member
thanks treeman i was going to tell LXT that i was sure u needed a workman comp certificate and proof of insurance even for a subcontractor in NY but i figured pa was different so i didn't't bother
i have 2 friends who have pretty profitable companies in NY
both failed to get the proper comp and liability certificates for the companies or employees that the used . and when they were audited they were fined big time one was 4500 bucks and the other was 2800 comp is no joke and the NY state comp fund wants there money they don't give a dam about your life story , even the IRS is more forgiving
i have 2 friends who have pretty profitable companies in NY
both failed to get the proper comp and liability certificates for the companies or employees that the used . and when they were audited they were fined big time one was 4500 bucks and the other was 2800 comp is no joke and the NY state comp fund wants there money they don't give a dam about your life story , even the IRS is more forgiving
treeman82
Addicted to ArboristSite
NYSIF is definately a fun group to deal with.
mckeetree
Addicted to ArboristSite
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