Introducing the Chainmeister

[Philbert]

Looooooooooong quotes!

It' NOT about filing vs grinding. It's NOT about filing off or on the saw. It is simply that there are other ways to file off the saw. Eg a chain vise - works with any gauge or length of loop. Or a Granberg and a scrap bar of the correct gauge - works with any length of loop.

I have been polite here but losing patience with you talking in circles around the issue. Tell us what a Chainmeister does that a filing vse does not.

Philbert

 

[treeslayer2003]

perhaps this device could be useful for mechanical harvester chain? I cannot file on my bell, have to remove chain and file on a scrap bar in a vise. just a thought. now if ya invent something to straitin out all the bars I bent up, I want one.

 

[KiwiBro]

I assumed the machine would save me time, effort and money, which is why I bought it. I finally had to admit to myself that I was wrong in this assumption. It didn't meet my expectations in the real-life setting. Your results may vary.

I'm amongst the crowd that knows you can get a chain sharper with a one dollar file by hand than with a machine. And like that crowd I hand filed, on the bar, on the saw. And I still do.

A grinder saves time and not just any time but home time, family and friends time. The sort of time I put a huge value on. what's that worth to you, to those this device you espouse is pitched to? I'm not hand filing a bunch of chains each or every other night or telling the Missus I'll be late to that dinner date or can't pick the kids up from swim practise because I or someone in my crew rocked a few chains and I need to spend a ridiculous amount of time rehabilitating the chains by hand on my Chainmeister. This device strikes me as a solution either looking for a problem or creating more than it claims to solve. I guess I could use it as a learning tool though - when someone rocks a chain, I can whip out the Chainmeister and tell them to hand file the chain after work on their own time. I bet they'll be more careful next time around. although if they hit nails, staples, reinforcing rods, old bike parts, etc, etc hidden in the wood, well, I would have to offer to grind the chain for 'em.

Grind dust - yes, it aint good for you, I take precautions. You know that evil dinosaur juice you fuel your cars, trucks and...saws with is bad for you too, don't you? Shorter chain life - yes, no doubt about it. Enough to make it not worthwhile grinding - hell no. Hand filing ground chain - heck, I must be doing something wrong because I can touch up (all I want to be doing in the field on the client's or my time) ground chains without problem. Sharper by hand- yes. But my time and profitability isn't measure by how many pissing contests I can win about the sharpness of my chains. They are more than sharp enough to do a great, safe job.

My assumption on clutter is an inherent assumption that this device will not prove more valuable to me than a grinder and will gather dust on a wall in the shed or take up space being carted around in my tool boxes for no good reason. If anyone wants to send me one to test out, I'll eat my words and sing it's praises if it proves otherwise, but the people behind this device will have to prise the not inconsiderable $ out of my cold dead hands before I'm parting with a cent to purchase one.

Clearly, your mileage does vary. If it works for you, I'm happy you found a better-for-you way. why not put your grinder up for sale in the classifieds on this site?

 

[Tree Machine]

Moving on

Kiwi bro, I see all your points clearly. What I don't get is you've expressed the importance of time, yet here you are sending negative energy out about some device you clearly have no interest in. I like your passion, though. Turned into a positive direction, it's what champions are made of.

perhaps this device could be useful for mechanical harvester chain?

Slayer, I can only partially answer that. A harvester bar, I have never held one in my hands. The ChainMeister was designed around the mounting slot of chainsaw bars, and their chains. The sprocket on the ChainMeister has a slot whose width is .065, so it can take a chain with a driver gauge up to .063 It may be just a matter of swapping out the stock sprocket. It was not designed for harvester bars, but that does not mean it wouldn't work. No one has tried yet.

I have been polite here but losing patience with you talking in circles around the issue. Tell us what a Chainmeister does that a filing vise does not.

I had begun a thread with 8 or 9 images over the first 4 posts, but the thread was pulled down without notice. I wrote the moderator, no reply.

Generally, I write by posting pictures, I caption them, brief text, next picture. This is still the intent, just not in this thread.

May I ask, for my sake as well as the readership, what exactly do you mean by a chain vise? We're not talking about a filing jig. A chain vise (not bar vise) is something that squeezes and clamps the drive links, yes?, like the little holding device on a wheeled chain grinder, or like the former picture of the two chipper knives bolted together? I've seen a thread here somewhere at Arboristsite, on clamping the chain itself. I'm just not clear on what exactly I am comparing to. Googling 'filing vise' you get stump vises, an entirely different thing altogether, or devices that are made to clamp the driver links, like at this site where the chain vises range in price from $145 to $495. Again, though, a different yet somewhat related concept in that the goal is to securing a chainsaw chain so it can be sharpened.

The ChainMeister does not clamp the chain, nor does it clamp the bar. It is not intended to be a vise or clamp in any way. What it does is mount the chain on a bar and allows instant, precise tensioning of the chain, swift installation or removal of the chain from the bar and easy advancement of the chain along the length of the bar as needed. So far the ChainMeister has only been compared to other methods of hand filing, specifically, compared it to that of the chain being mounted, as traditionally, on a chainsaw.

I am glad to compare anything similar, but all the early patent/intellectual property work showed nothing remotely like it. The ChainMeister idea started as a chain clamp, but evolved to move beyond the limitations of clamping the chain driver links themselves. If clamping the driver links was ideal, the idea would have stopped there.

If we are to compare products, let it be apples to apples.

The ChainMeister can be used in conjunction with jaw vises, bar vises and any other chain sharpening jigs and chain sharpening guides, as well as bar-mounted mechanical grinders or rotary stone-type sharpeners.

 

[Philbert]

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/120500.htm

This is a thread (link above) where I have tried to 'collect' a number of chain vise ideas, including commercially available, improvised, and home made that have been mentioned here on A.S. in recent years.

Thank you for distinguishing the Chainmeister from these.

If I understand you correctly, you are stating that tensioning the chain longitudinally along the bar is better for filing than securing the chain against lateral movement by clamping the drive links?

Philbert

 

[Tree Machine]

chain vise defined

Excellent! Most helpful, Philbert. That thread answers the question of what exactly is meant by 'chain vise'. That is the thread I had seen and was referring to. Great examples of treeguy ingenuity. Inspiring.

If I understand you correctly, you are stating that tensioning the chain longitudinally along the bar is better for filing than securing the chain against lateral movement by clamping the drive links?

No, I won't word it like that. For what those devices do, they do their job exactly as they should. I will point out that the one thing they do is the only thing they do. The ChainMeister offers more flexibility and options beyond just mounting a bar to a chain and stretching that chain to the perfect tension you desire. I've gotten a couple e-mails this week describing things I hadn't even thought of yet. I am counting on the community and their creativity to help find other unintended uses and bring it to its full potential as a useful tool in the saw professional's kit. The more benefits it can bring, the better the tool. I promise to share everything I personally have learned, as well as advantages coming in from others using the device.

Treestuff wants me to start the tell-all thread in their sponsor section as the perception of us invading this forum is not the kind of vibe they wish to project. I will post a link here when I get it going, and you will all be invited to be part.

 

[kevin bingham]

Those chain vices are cool philbert. Where could you buy one of them? This does show to me that there is a problem and also that the chainmeister is a solution to that problem. It is also the only solution to that problem that is available to purchase at a major arborist supply company. It's made well, it's easy to use.

 

[Philbert]

Those chain vices are cool philbert. Where could you buy one of them? This does show to me that there is a problem and also that the chainmeister is a solution to that problem. It is also the only solution to that problem that is available to purchase at a major arborist supply company. It's made well, it's easy to use.

If I was not clear in any of my comments Kevin, I agree that it looks like a well thought out and well made product. If it works for someone, that is great. There are lots of ways to sharpen chains, and folks have to find one that woks for them.

I disagree that it is the only way to sharpen off of the saw. Many of these methods have been mentioned in this thread and others. So I have objected to those comments and distractions into the 'filing-vs-grinding' debate which is irrelevant - this is a filing tool (although I am interested in hearing about the other applications Tree Machine mentioned).

As for the filing vises, many are home made, but fairly simple to make. Some guys are content with a machinist's vise or antique filing vise. The Logosol is still commercially available. The Oregon and STIHL FG are NLA, but highly prized. The Granberg type filing jigs (used with a scrap bar) are, of course, widely available .

Lots of options, including the Chainmeister. If you use one I am sure that people here would like to hear your experience.

Philbert

 

[Tree Machine]

Eureka moment!

Philbert, you are so right on. I am really excited that these unique devices, both historic and current, are coming to the surface.

We are onto a problem that has been around a long time, since the beginning of the chainsaw. It may have seemed I was 'talking in circles' earlier, but the result is that here and now we are merging old solutions and new, and putting it out in public for all to see and sort out. This is as much research right now as anything. Professor Philbert, thank you so much for your work in collecting the data so far.

In the treestuff sponsor thread I will share with you a number of chain clamp devices from my earliest work on this project. These were where the ChainMeister idea began its journey. The first three prototypes, the earliest inception versions, are much uglier than any of the chain clamps shown in Philbert's chain clamp thread, though prototype #3 was resourceful enough that I will have to add it to that thread. And this one, too. I laugh at this now, but it really worked well from having been pulled out of the scrap pile and modified with two bolts. I stuffed a strip of neoprene deep in the hinge to allow it to 'spring' open. The bolts are to keep it from opening too far. Check it out:

View attachment 299671

As well, I will post this one, too, at the the chain clamp thread.
It came out of the patent archives, dated August 29, 1978

View attachment 299663

 

[imagineero]

It's a nicely made device, It just seems to me that it creates another problem for each one it solves.

If you're a tree service with a bunch of saws with all different bars, then you've got to have a spare bar for each saw and swap the device over etc

If you're a guy with only a couple saws, then you probably don't go through a bunch of chains, and it's probably just as quick to do them on the saw in a vice

If you go through so many chains each day that putting them back on the saw to sharpen is a major inconvenience, then you're probably going to use a grinder

If you're after true precision ie. the race chain/square file crowd, then this device won't hold the chain securely enough for you

etc etc... I think there would be a much bigger market for a device like the older style chainsaw vices - basically a bar with a sprocket at each end that can be quickly clamped/unclamped. A device like that has much more appeal to a wider variety of people. You can put any chain size on it without screwing around, and it holds the chain very securely.

This chainmeister thing seems to be just another gadget waiting to get lost in the kitchen drawer with the egg slicer, apple corer, lemon zester, etc. Probably sell a few to the types of guys that like to collect gadgets, but it's not going to be a tool for the working man.

Shaun

 

[KiwiBro]

Kiwi bro, I see all your points clearly. What I don't get is you've expressed the importance of time, yet here you are sending negative energy out about some device you clearly have no interest in. I like your passion, though. Turned into a positive direction, it's what champions are made of.

You, frankly, haven't earned the right to question what I or anyone on this site does by choice with any portion of our leisure time, be that perusing this website, cross dressing, putting blue rinse through our hair or whatever it happens to be. I find it remarkable, and somewhat offensive, someone who falsely seeks to assert that a negative opinion of this device makes the poster a negative person, either isn't willing or able, to acknowledge the inherent negativity in such a stance.

Are you not here to help educate potential buyers about this device? Buyers that could quite easily have the same questions and negative opinions as I and many others. How does playing the man and not the ball like you're doing when I tender honestly held negative opinions of this device, jive with

You're a tough crowd here in the Forestry and Logging Forum, but that is precisely why Treestuff decided the ChainMeister introduction thread would be started here.

?

If my questioning offends anyone, I apologise because that's not the intention. Maybe Kiwi's are built differently than Americans. Here, if someone has an honestly held opinion, regardless of it being a good or bad one, we put it out there so it can be addressed and everyone learns more as a result, ourselves included. The flip side of this stance however is when we see and use a good product, everyone gets to learn about it.

What better review for potential buyers than a glowing review from someone like me who was critical of the merits of this device, after you guys send me one to try. Tell you what, you guys pay and if I like it, I'll pay you back and let everyone reading this thread know how wonderful it is. If you can win me over, it's a good product. But be prepared for bad press too, if my suspicions are confirmed. In other words, but put a little bluntly, put up (to me or another critic in this thread) or confirm to everyone this thread is simply an astro-turfing infomercial masquerading as a genuine attempt to engage the "tough crowd here in the Forestry and Logging Forum".

 

[jrcat]

Well put KiwiBro

 

[KiwiBro]

Well put KiwiBro

Thanks jrcat.

 

[roberte]

I would test drive it also, with the same conditions laid out by kiwibro.

 

[madhatte]

I don't think I'll ever try to write a big reply on my phone again. Alas, my crowning wisdom is lost. Summary: see the thread on the Timberline chain jig for an example of how we do "Constructive Criticism" around here. I think we covered a lot of ground, there was no name-calling, and some real work got done. That's what I hope will happen here, as well.

 

[StihlKiwi]

You, frankly, haven't earned the right to question what I or anyone on this site does by choice with any portion of our leisure time, be that perusing this website, cross dressing, putting blue rinse through our hair or whatever it happens to be. I find it remarkable, and somewhat offensive, someone who falsely seeks to assert that a negative opinion of this device makes the poster a negative person, either isn't willing or able, to acknowledge the inherent negativity in such a stance.

Are you not here to help educate potential buyers about this device? Buyers that could quite easily have the same questions and negative opinions as I and many others. How does playing the man and not the ball like you're doing when I tender honestly held negative opinions of this device, jive with ?

If my questioning offends anyone, I apologise because that's not the intention. Maybe Kiwi's are built differently than Americans. Here, if someone has an honestly held opinion, regardless of it being a good or bad one, we put it out there so it can be addressed and everyone learns more as a result, ourselves included. The flip side of this stance however is when we see and use a good product, everyone gets to learn about it.

What better review for potential buyers than a glowing review from someone like me who was critical of the merits of this device, after you guys send me one to try. Tell you what, you guys pay and if I like it, I'll pay you back and let everyone reading this thread know how wonderful it is. If you can win me over, it's a good product. But be prepared for bad press too, if my suspicions are confirmed. In other words, but put a little bluntly, put up (to me or another critic in this thread) or confirm to everyone this thread is simply an astro-turfing infomercial masquerading as a genuine attempt to engage the "tough crowd here in the Forestry and Logging Forum".

spot on

 

[Red Amor]

I have an old blacksmiths vice at my work bench I clamp a saw n bar in this and hand file my chains
I also have an old bar I clamp in vice and slip chain in and the loop that hangs down under the bar I have a rod with a hook in one end and the other end goes in a board which I stand on with one foot to out enough tension on the chain to hold it nice n firm in bar while I sharpen
Its very simple very quick to move a new bunch of teeth into position and it cost nothing
I have a neat little vice that clamps to the coaming on my flat tray and holds saw at a great height to sharpen in the field
credit to the maker of the opps flash jig its well made no doubt about it but its mot for me and it would seem not for many others but it will be cockahoo for some
some neat new flash gizzmoes are just a bit time consuming for some of us
good luck with it yeah
thankyou for showing it to us

 

[imagineero]

Summary: see the thread on the Timberline chain jig for an example of how we do "Constructive Criticism" around here.

I had a pretty good search, and found a few threads on this jig, but I'm guessing you mean this one?

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/180488.htm

Shaun

 

[madhatte]

That's the one!

 

[Tree Machine]

The collection grows

I had a pretty good search, and found a few threads on this jig, but I'm guessing you mean this one?

New Chain Sharpener

Good search, Imagineero!

View attachment 299898

Yes, good addition to this thread.

I will take the plunge and buy one of these. My head always goes to looking at any tool, and asking myself, how I can make that tool better? or how can I use this in a non-traditional way? This is a sick illness, drives my wife nuts.

Replacing the crank handle with a cordless drill, this could be the equivalent of a wheeled grinder in sharpening speed, except that the heat would be kept low on the carbide cutter (and gullet) and the tooth should not get that surface blueing 'heat treatment' that you get with high-speed wheeled grinders. Or burrs. But I don't know, this is speculation at this point. There is only one way to find out.

The cost on this thing is $125. Their warranty is lifetime. Let's say, for instance, that you're on the leading edge of your career. Here's a fer example

You're 24 and you have the wisdom to invest in the tools up front that you will need for your entire career, not just consumables. Tools that will last. You know you've gotta sharpen chain, you have learned from members of Arboristsite that sharpness of chain is central in importance and directly linked to joy. You decide which chain sharpening accessories to purchase up front for the long run, to create for yourself an integrated system that allows you, repetitively, over the next 25 years, to manage the task of keeping all your chains sharpened to as near perfection as you can reach, as well as swiftly.

Would the 24 year-old buy a Timberline chainsaw sharpener? Hmmmm, $125 over 25 years, simple math here, guys, 5 bucks a year. You just have to pay all of it up front.

Not everything has a lifetime guarantee. In my book, that is significant. All I have to do is not lose it.

Given that when I buy gear, by the end of the month I have lost the thought of the money spent and am focussed on how the device is improving the way I climb, cut or do business. If it helps out regularly, then it is worth the $whatever cost I had to 'invest' in it. It would have to be entirely useless to not be worth 5 bucks per year. Say you make 60 dollars an hour as an owner operator, a dollar a minute. Will this device save you five minutes along the way, sometime during the year? If so, it has paid it's rent, has given you return on investment, so to speak.

If it saves you two hours and 5 minutes sometime that first year, it has paid itself off.

These are hypothetical number-crunch models, and the numbers, very simply stated, show this device, at this price, to hold a good deal of promise of true value.

I only have about twelve and a half more years of saw slinging, so I will be doing a rent-to-own for ten dollars per year, prepaid up front.

I have never used a filing guide or jig of any type, so I could be a good guinea pig for this one, having had nothing to compare it to that would bias the experience. I can be completely objective.