ISA or TCIA

[okietreedude1]

I went to the TCIA website (natlarb.com) and here's what the dues are:

"Tree Care Industry Association Dues for 2005

If Annual Gross Volume of Tree Care Business is: Annual dues are:

$0 to $100,000 $359
$100,001 to $200,000 $503
$200,001 to $500,000 $574
$500,001 to $750,000 $790
$750,001 to $1,000,000 $1,004
$1,000,001 to $5,000,000 $1,436
$5,000,001 to $20,000,000 $2,010
$20,000,001 and above $3,444


Each additional membership for Conglomerates: $359

Associate Member Dues for 2005 are:

Associate Dealer, Distributor, Industry Support: $359

Associate Manufacturer: $503"

Copied w/o permission of TCIA.

 

[clearance]

Tom, Treeseer- you guys have a valid point about treeman, how about treeworker. Yes, my interprovincial trade certificate does say certified utility arborist, but I hate it when people ask '"are you an arborist?" I cut down trees mostly and I really think you two would agree that calling me an arborist is not right. Besides, when they say it I think of being compared to arborists I have had to do retarded things for and it makes me cringe. Nothing to be proud of in my opinion unless you are an arborist that actually works hard or if you just make decisions you make decisions that are good. It was said that city arborists have to be educated about where to plant trees, why, I thought thats why they got the job as arborists because they are educated, right. As far as me questioning the arborists decision about having us chip everything instead of one chainsaw and one excavator, let me explain. I know I get a pay cheque regardless, but the arborist has a duty not to waste taxpayers money, at a private outfit these city arborists would soon be fired. That idea about not wasting taxpayers money might be quaint and old fashioned, but I believe in getting the most for the people that are paying the bill.

 

[treeseer]

Tom, Treeseer- ... I really think you two would agree that calling me an arborist is not right.

Sorry clearance, I don't agree. You study ways to do the right thing for the trees that you do not cut down; that makes you an arborist. Cringe all you want brother, you are under the same tent as us and as the city arborists who tell you to chip instead of haul. (that's ok; it's a big tent.)

That may not be a waste of money. Keeping that material on site to recycle may have benefits that you and I can only guess at. If you want to improve the quality of directions coming from city arbo's, maybe responding to them knowledgeably and in writing would help. If they know that you're recording their work and may pass on your observations to their supervisor, the specs you get may be more realistic. Just a thought.

On this thread's original intent--has anyone noticed that the guy who does soil testing for customers is the guy who is raking in almost half a million per year?? Could there be a connection between quality of total tree care service, and quantity of income?

Brett's my role model. Now if I can only increase my income 10x and get into that category, without taking on 20x the overhead that he probably has more than me.

OK Dan, enough armchair psychologizing. There ar ehostas to divide, aren't there? The "apparent hate" my be just disdain brought on by impatience, or contempt bred by familiarity. Clearance will be in real trouble as he looks harder at trees. they will show him shades of gray and teach him the valus of patience and humility. Trees'll do that, and make liife much more complex when they work their magic on you.

 

[clearance]

Treeco, Treeseer-the trees are not been chipped and recyclyed on site, they are being chipped into the truck and dumped miles away from this site, adding to the cost. Even a child knows that 40 yard triple axle bin carrys far more than a dump box on a boom truck. Next you guys will want me to dig out the stumps by hand. Cutting down trees whether by hand or with a hoe is work involving an arborist, how can you say otherwise when it involve trees. Arborist=trees. And you wonder why I cringe to be asociated with these guys, even you two are trying to make excuses and justify thier decisions from down there. Birds of a feather.....I am not going to talk to these city arborists and tell them how the work should be done, the last thing they would do is agree with some "hack" wearing boots and jeans. Why not make the best use of men and machines, save the taxpayers money and let me go and cut something else down? Treeco-you tell me to be carefull, yeah carefull of widowmakers, kickbacks, etc. certainly not my opinion about these arborists, bring it on.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I am not going to talk to these city arborists and tell them how the work should be done, the last thing they would do is agree with some "hack" wearing boots and jeans. Why not make the best use of men and machines, save the taxpayers money and let me go and cut something else down?

If this bothers you so much, why are you spending the energy discussing it with us? Take that same energy and ask questions. Instead of telling someone how to do their job you might ask why things are being done this way. You might be surprised at what you find out. For all any of us know they may have priced out all of the different possibilities and found that this is the most cost effective. Simple doesn't always mean the cheapest.

Sharing your knowledge, experience and skills could save money. Until you start thinking more of your self than just being a hack you'll probably have a hard time communicating with the decision makers.

In Minneapolis parks they have very strict rules about what machinery can be driven near the trees. Soil compaction is a terrible thing. Once the soil sturucture is ruined by driving machinery on it, especially when the soil is wet, it takes decades to restructure. Maybe this isn't an issue in this park. Most of the time it is cheaper to grind out stumps instead of digging. Factor in the ease of digging but then you have to load the stumps on a truck, transport and pay for disposal. Many times the stumps are ground and the chips are just churned into the soil on site.

 

[treeseer]

Once the soil sturucture is ruined by driving machinery on it, especially when the soil is wet, it takes decades to restructure. ... Most of the time it is cheaper to grind out stumps instead of digging.

Tom's right-- plus holes caused by digging are often filled with bad subsoil. So factor in also the effect on roots of adjacent trees-=>their decline in value.

It's not an immediate thing but it can be a severe thing.

Returning the material to the site is always best, for the trees left on the site anyways.

 

[clearance]

Doesn't bother me to be called a hack, people I respect are the ones who's label I care about. Once again you show your lack of knowledge regarding land clearing. This site in question is not yet a park, demo'd houses, vacant houses and now empty lots. To fall about 12 Doug. fir in a row 60 to 100' tall, I am going to have to strip them with a boom truck as high as Ican reach, then wedge them over. Some will have to be pulled over with a bull rope ran to a block in a high stump I left and back to the truck. I estimate three loads of chips from the branches and tops, from experience I know that all the branches and the stumps could be put in a bin trailer. After the excavator helped you fall them. I know that the stumps are coming out anyways, but what is faster to get stumps, a grinder or a big hoe? No brainer, as far as soil compaction, after they can just truck in some topsoil after. In Vncouver they have built parks right on top of heavily contaminated land that had been used by gross polluters for many years before there were any enviromental standards. Personally I would have left some more trees on the site, but whatever. Going back tomorrow, I'll try to bite my tongue and ask some polite questions if the arborist shows up.

 

[treeseer]

Doesn't bother me to be called a hack,... Personally I would have left some more trees on the site,... .

Which is why you are more accurately called an arborist. Hello, Mr. Arborist!

People who write specs are not often happy about being second-guessed, but if you have solid understanding of the factors that go inot those decisions, and a well-supported alternative that is viable, they may be receptive. Research the situation first, then Good Luck!

 

[Nickrosis]

Great thread. Happy member of ISA since I was 19 and happy member of TCIA since...birth? You get out of it what you put into it.

I spend a lot of time mentoring other companies in the area and helping them out in any way we can. To not do this is to ignore the kinship that we share in the industry and sets us all back. Being a member of TCIA and ISA furthers that effort.

ROLLA, I appreciate what you're working to do, but if you didn't invest in the existing trade organizations before starting your own, I would expect your peers to have the same derogatory attitude about what you're doing. Bash bash bash. Without a marinating the culture and actions of the organizations. If you expect other orgs to rapidly turn around a burgeoning, independently-minded industry, I would assume you somehow have the antidote.

Oh Clearance, anger and hate are not healthy.

 

[treeseer]

Without a marinating the culture and actions of the organizations.

Umm, Mr. Collegian, can you tell me the meaning of that (non-)sentence? If marinating is soaking in a sauce, are you saying that we should imbibe before participating?

 

[clearance]

Nick-I am more frustrated with the ongoing stupidity I see from arborists here than angry. Hate, no way, they haven't done anything to make me hate them. Treeseer and Tom would fit in very well working as city arborists here. Driving around in a new city pickup, stopping often at Starbucks, having endless "important" meetings, consulting with conslutants. Making arbitrary, nonsensical decisions to the dismay and incredulity of treeworkers and the public. Exposing the city to financial liability from lawsuits becuase of thier constant worship of the holy trees. Or more likely causing the city to settle out of court because thier lawyers know they would get thier ass kicked in court. I would love to see this b.s. stopped and some I.S.A. arborists get fired for incompetence, that would make the rest of them think a little. Anyways, end of my rant, I am going to keep doing my best to make good people happy and try to forget about the culls.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Clear,

You have no clue how Treeseer or I operate or view hazards. Do you think that I've never cut down a tree? Done plenty in my thirty years in the business.

In all of those years I've only had to go back and cleanup one failure. A client had a double stem basswood. I installed a cable between the two leaders. Six years later a windstorm with 70+ MPH winds tore up most of north Minneapolis. The side leader of the basswood broke. BUT!!! all it did was scratch the paint on the neighbor's house as it swung over on the cable. Both of these houses were built in the late 1890's, very historic. If I hadn't cabled the tree the neighbor's house would have taken a hard smash. The takedown, of the side leader, not the whole tree, was systematic. A few years later I was out again to prune the main leader. In the thirty years in the profession I haven't had the opportunity to hide behind anyone's skirts. Unlike a mistake that you would make, I would pay. I owned the business so it would have been my headache to deal with any problems. Sure, I had insurance all of the time but I never worried about having a liability claim. I base my work on knowledge of the profession.

Your constant "painting with a wide brush" does nothing for the conversation. Do you thrive on antagonism? It's really a pity that you [seem] to have had such bad experiences with other tree care professionals. Do you know Julian Dunster? He's from BC and one of the most knowledgable arborists that I know.

 

[Old Monkey]

Clearance- You sure have knack for getting folks riled up. Have your crews ever used a tub grinder? Its a great way to keep all the material on site, stumps and all.

 

[clearance]

Tom-good for you, the failure you describe is no big deal for 30 years. Look, I've seen trees on houses, across roads, powerlines that should have been cut down when Jesus was in diapers. I see trees that are going to fail, yesterday I saw uprooted cottonwoods on a 45 degree angle that will fall onto the freeway. I have seen fir snags in parks well over 100' that are stone cold, no branches, many of them in striking distance of playing fields. City arborists have got me to "wildlife" trees at 20-30' that were leaning over trails or onto peoples yards. It goes on and on, sorry I slagged you guys, maybe if you were here you could take care of a few things. Went of painting with a sprayer.

 

[treeseer]

"wildlife" trees at 20-30' that were leaning over trails or onto peoples yards.

I do this a lot; trunks 30' from a target are left at 29' high. If they're asking you to leave the snag taller than the distance to the target, maybe they figure the reduction in risk by shortening makes it ok. their call, which I understand is often hard to accept.

 

[Nickrosis]

Umm, Mr. Collegian, can you tell me the meaning of that (non-)sentence? If marinating is soaking in a sauce, are you saying that we should imbibe before participating?

The fragment was a literary device missing the preposition "in" to read: Bash bash bash. Without a marinating in the culture and actions of the organizations.

Happy now? Wow. That was a nit to pick.

Look, I've seen trees on houses, across roads, powerlines that should have been cut down when Jesus was in diapers.

Wouldn't it be best to cut down the trees the day before they fall or fail? If that's the case (and I assume it is), let's do our best to prolong the life of the tree and delay that final day. When it's time to remove because failure is approaching (a judgement call to be sure), by all means remove.

I want people to love trees, and I would hate for them to have a bad connotation with trees because of a failure. So let's do what we can for the good of the trees and people because it comes back to us.

 

[treeseer]

The fragment was a literary device missing the preposition "the"

Actually it was missing the "in", but I understand now. I ain't gonna fuss bout grammar long's I know what you're talking about.

"So let's do what we can for the good of the trees and people because it comes back to us."

now that's what we all should be talking about.

 

[vharrison2]

Educate, educate, educate.

 

[Old Monkey]

When I was a kid there was a drawing in three or four panels up on the library wall. The first panel showed a small copse of trees, a meadow with a stream going through it, everything pristine and beautiful. In the next panel some settlers have moved in fenced the meadow, cut down some of the trees for building and for cultivation, built some houses and dammed the stream. In the next panel a small town is forming and the only trees left are in courtyards or in peoples yards. By the last panel concrete covers the scene and the only living plants are assigned to little patches of soil. I looked and looked at that drawing as a kid and I think it had an effect on me.

I have always wanted to but lack the skill to draw the history of a large tree in panels like that. The first panel would be of an oak seedling. It would get bigger and bigger and somewhere down the line there would be a native american village beneath its shade. Later a farmer would run barbed wire on it for the corner of his pasture(Much to the chagrin of a tree trimmer a hundred years down the line). Homes start to appear around the base of the grand old tree. Then, the California touch, the wealthy home builder who loves nature designs a house around our tree complete with a deck that surrounds the base of the tree and a hot tub under its loving shade. Of course a few branches had to go for the, oh so stylish, vaulted ceilings. Then in our second to last panel a windstorm has broken off a good sized spar and it damaged the beautiful house. Last panel shows me cutting the tree down as a teary eyed homeowner looks on. "I just couldn't sleep at night thinking about what will fall off next. Sob!"

My apologies for deviating from the original thread.

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

no apoligises needed Old Monkey, I had my questions answered and enjoy (for the most part) where this thread is heading

Nickrosis, I'd say you are doing a disservice to the homeowner with the above example

if the tree has a main lead fail, requiring removal, and at that time it is a good estimate that the tree will need to come down totally in, you pick it 3, 5, 10 years, and you just remove the lead to "prolong the life of the tree and delay that final day" you are definetly not working in the homeowners best interest
Total cost to remove the tree on two occasions is going to be greater that on the first visit
plus they would then have an early start to replace with a more appropiate tree for the spot

I was always under the impression that it was ISA's stance that if "it is the wrong tree in the wrong spot, take it down and replace it with a more suitable tree" That's actually from an ISA seminar I attended.

got to go, we'll talk more