I've Been Screwed!!!

[SmokinDodge]

Incredibel story. Nasty stuff those palms you have.
Now this may sound a tad simplistic but wouldn't it be possible to steam clean or pressure clean the saw at the end of the day?

You would think so.

How long do you think it would usually take to really clean a saw well that's packed full of this goo?

I've never cut a palm in my life but here is my guess, and no none of the numbers are exact but the idea is present:

I'd say 20 minutes at the end of EVERY day. 5 Days a week x 20 minutes = 100 minutes a week. 100 minutes a week x 52 weeks in a year =5200 minutes or 86.66 hours. If you billed yourself out cheap at $50 an hour (Could be cutting trees instead of cleaning saw) it would cost you $4,333 a year. Or you could just buy a new saw every year. :biggrinbounce2:

 

[Ekka]

Yeah and here's the irony.

I used to and the saws died quicker as you would present a nice new clean surface for palm juice instead of a coated one!

Less cleaning means an existing buffer of crud is already in place ... problem is the buffer of stuff can stop ya chain brake working or oil pump spinning.

Sort of reminds you of the old cavity cleaning technique that was discovered to do more bad than good.

And yeah, I doused it with all sorts of oils, gue, fibreglass, paint etc etc ... forget about it and buy a new saw. Chit I'd cut $100K worth of palms with it.

Sad part is in all the years of saving the corroded saws in the hope of finding 44's with clapped out engines and good chasis ... it never happened. People just hang on to old saws.

Anyway, they've gone to good use now, and I suppose as the years roll by there'll be more 44's for parts from me. :biggrinbounce2: It's just the way it is.

 

[aquan8tor]

OK, so ya'll wanna know why the stupid palms corrode the living chit out of saws.

Wait till ole mate sees it first hand, he'll freak!

Palms hold a lot of water, unlike trees the entire thickness is working wood, no deadwood or heartwood, all vascular bundles. (So I suppose you cant ringbark a palm)

When you cut palms the saw dust is like wet lawn clippings. Sticks like mud to a wall. Unlike proper sawdust it behaves like playdough, moulding itself to every nook and cranny, hole, divet and gap. It forces it's way into the brake band recess, the chain brake covers are no guard either and it gets in there too.

Then a transition occurs, a very quick one. The wet sticky crap changes it's PH and starts going acidic.

You can buy palm sugar, and palm vinegar. Whilst I'm not a oenologist and understand the entire process I do know that the sap becomes acidic. In fact some research has found that the PH goes from 6.5 down as low as 3.2 over 48 hours.

Now the acidity seems to react with the saw casing. My hunch is it reacts more so to the magnesium than the aluminium.

The reason I think that is because a lower quality cheaper saw (Echo 350T) actually stood up to the corrosion much better than Stihl or Husky. I think the Echo has less magnesium, there's a distinct difference. On the 350T the oil pump was fully exposed to palm juice for 18months and was hardly pitted. Meanwhile with the Stihl 44's the oil pump is somewhat hidden but would heavily corrode. In fact changing oil pumps is a regular thing. I have always a brand newy in the toolbox.

On the 200T the oil pump is hidden a bit but the ass end of it gets corroded away, I used to change them but found they actually keep working ... sort of like looking at the terminator with that wierdo eye you see the guts of it! But it still works pumping oil ... eventually it leaks and you get sick of puddles.

Steel parts just get rusty, clutch springs get rusty and break often.

Palms suck! You may think some are better than others but when it comes to corrosion there's no difference. They'll root ya chipper blades in no time too and you better clean out and oil ya chipper after a decent session.

Many varieties are just evil little chits on sticks that need culling, LA has smelled the roses and is gonna start mass culling.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=39999

And to settle the tree huggers down replacement planting with better things is the go. Over here palms were simply overplanted and in the worst spots ... my record was 76 queen palms cut down and stump ground in 1 house and took us a week. You just wouldn't plant 76 full blown trees would you? There are many varieties and some are nice and some stay small but so many bad ones are sold it's not funny, the queen palm is banned here now.

Hope that helps. And I allocate special saws to palm duties and the 46 and 66 never ever cut palms! And I've had them for years.

Thanks for the lesson. That pH change is pretty amazing. for those that don't understand, going 3.3 pH points down is 3000 times more acidic at 3.2pH than at pH6.5. :jawdrop: pH is an exponential scale. Pretty amazing. I won't be planting any palms here any time soon.....


So, any news on the buggar who sold you the saw, blsnelling??

I've been in bed with a flu virus for a bit.

 

[Marc1]

You would think so.

How long do you think it would usually take to really clean a saw well that's packed full of this goo?

I've never cut a palm in my life but here is my guess, and no none of the numbers are exact but the idea is present:

I'd say 20 minutes at the end of EVERY day. 5 Days a week x 20 minutes = 100 minutes a week. 100 minutes a week x 52 weeks in a year =5200 minutes or 86.66 hours. If you billed yourself out cheap at $50 an hour (Could be cutting trees instead of cleaning saw) it would cost you $4,333 a year. Or you could just buy a new saw every year. :biggrinbounce2:

Hum...when I do accept the explanation above that cleaning makes it worst, your explanation is a bit... hum... out there.
You cannot factor in your time in that way. If the cost of opportunity of your 20 minutes is zero, that is cleaning up, just as packing up your tools, washing your hands or taking a shower has also an opportunity cost zero since you are not stopping any other productive activity in order to do that, then your hypothetical $4,333 is also equal to zero.
Obviously EKKA makes money cutting palms and has factored the cost of replacing the saw in the job, after all saws are not expensive compared to other trade tools.
Carpenters for example drive around with an average of the cost of 20 saws or more.

Still it would be an interesting experiment to find a way to beat this thing. Repainting the saw with industrial acid resistant epoxy paint may be a consideration. Probably cost the same as new saw hehe

 

[blsnelling]

It may be a while before I have much of an update. PayPal is going through their investigation process since I declined the measely refund the seller offered. If he gets away with this, it won't be because I made it easy for him. I'm not expecting the parts from Ekka to arrive for another week to a week and a half.

 

[belgian]

It may be a while before I have much of an update. PayPal is going through their investigation process since I declined the measely refund the seller offered. If he gets away with this, it won't be because I made it easy for him. I'm not expecting the parts from Ekka to arrive for another week to a week and a half.

Please let us know how this turns out. This seller committed fraude 100% and personally I'm very interested to see if Ebay or Paypal is going to take their responsibility. Good testcase for them, I would say.
and you derserve to be compensated.
good luck.
Roland

 

[blsnelling]

Please let us know how this turns out.

You can count on it.
I found out the cylinder Ekka's sending me has a decomp valve. Mine didn't have one so I needed the plastic top engine cover. Ekka had one but didn't know I needed it until he had already shipped my package. Ekka's found a way to get the engine cover to me. He's sending some parts to ComputerUser for a saw he's working on (free again!!!) and is going to include the cover I need in that package. ComputerUser will then forward the cover to me. I'm really making friends here. I appreciate it a lot. I'm doing my best to see that justice is done to the seller, but I just can't get too mad about the whole thing with the way you guys have been bailing me out. Merry Christmas to all!

 

[Lakeside53]

you can just put the Stihl plug in the decomp hole and forget it.

Hmmmm.. you bought an MS440 off Ebay and it didn't have a decomp??? or even provision in the plastiic shround???? That wasn't a 440...

 

[blsnelling]

What did the serial number say? I believe you looked it up for me. Serial# = X154509592 Check the pics in the eBay link on the 1st page. The model tag clearly says MS 440 and has no decomp valve. ???

 

[Lakeside53]

What did the serial number say? I believe you looked it up for me. Serial# = X154509592 Check the pics in the eBay link on the 1st page. The model tag clearly says MS 440 and has no decomp valve. ???

I could be wrong... but the shrouds I've seen on MS440s without decomp have provision for it - and a small black plastic plug if no decomp (rare anyhow). It's real easy to change the name tag... or the shroud, or

 

[tek9tim]

I've run some 440s that were bought in '01 that did not have compression releases, provisions in the shroud, or hole in the cylinder. Check the tech release for the changeover, too. No mention of a compression release. This pic is kinda bad, but this is one of those early 440s.

 

[Lakeside53]

Yep... I think you are correct.. There were some early version like that. The current IPL's only list the decomp shroud now.

 

[SmokinDodge]

Hum...when I do accept the explanation above that cleaning makes it worst, your explanation is a bit... hum... out there.
You cannot factor in your time in that way. If the cost of opportunity of your 20 minutes is zero, that is cleaning up, just as packing up your tools, washing your hands or taking a shower has also an opportunity cost zero since you are not stopping any other productive activity in order to do that, then your hypothetical $4,333 is also equal to zero.
Obviously EKKA makes money cutting palms and has factored the cost of replacing the saw in the job, after all saws are not expensive compared to other trade tools.
Carpenters for example drive around with an average of the cost of 20 saws or more.

Still it would be an interesting experiment to find a way to beat this thing. Repainting the saw with industrial acid resistant epoxy paint may be a consideration. Probably cost the same as new saw hehe

Ya, it may have been "out there" but it was 2 a.m. and you smelled what i was cooking.

 

[adkranger]

BL I hope this all works out for ya. Lotsa help being given here on AS. Good stuff. The wagons are circled.

Shout out to Ekka, good job done from down under. Fellow AS'er taking care of a brother sawyer, good work. Tough chit dealing with them Palms, I'll never look at them things the same. Always thought they'd be easy...:hmm3grin2orange:

Someone mentioned earlier to construct a post of good & bad eBayers selling saws/parts, excellent idea. Of course we'd have to give preference to fellow AS'ers and Sponsers. I've bought and sold many things on eBay and have had no bad experiences yet, but I'm picky on their ratings. I simply couldn't live myself doing someone like that deal. I wonder how many AS'ers have clicked on that "Contact Us" button on his Web site.................hehehehe(not that I'm suggesting anything:angel: )

 

[blsnelling]

I got all my parts from Ekka yesterday. Both cylinders are good, one's exceptional. Both cranks are good. One piston is good. Of course the flywheel side case halves are good as well. He also left the coils on for me.

Good piston

Bad piston

Here's a bunch of parts waiting to be cleaned

And you though only a single guy could get away with this.:hmm3grin2orange: I celebrated my 18th anniversary last night.

Here's all the small parts.

 

[blsnelling]

Here's some better pics of Ekka's palm-trashed cases.

Holes on the back side where they had eaten all the way through.

 

[Ekka]

Glad you are happy and man that's a nice looking piston ... got any cylinder shots?

 

[blsnelling]

Glad you are happy and man that's a nice looking piston ... got any cylinder shots?

I took some, but the depth of field on my digital SLR is so short that very little of the pic was in focus. Maybe I'll try again with a smaller aperature and report back.

 

[bytehoven]

I must say I am lovin' the atmosphere 'round here. You guys are special.

Best of luck. Good thing you checked out the saw right away rather than letting it sit awhile.

 

[adkranger]

You are good! Or else you're pullin' our legs and have spare dishwasher in your shop.:biggrinbounce2: What do find works best for Stihl cases, Dawn or Cascade.

You are giving me inspiration though, got a beat up Husky 371xp I picked up at a garage sale this past summer that I may tear down this winter. Originally was going to leave as it was for a "beater" saw with my redneck fixes in place. All I need now is good left case......

Glad to see it working out for you.