just finished 20 ft csm on wheels

[mad murdock]

Tha ks for the reply on the feed speed. What B/C are you using? .404 pitch? 3/8" pitch? I have had plans to build either a CSM or a Band mill head. CSM is less $$ initially, but probably a little slower than a Band of similar size to your 42" bar.

 

[kpantherpro]

nice job on that build looks good, making a 4-stroker as well, is the vibration intermittant or is it constant, does it change or deminish when you change your belt out? might also want to make sure any pulley's are aligned and tight if there's any misalignment or wobble in those it will carry through. you may just have to find a way to dampen it, say rubber motor mounts, or some type of dampening sleeve at your engine or pullies a combination of the both may have that runnning smooth as silk. try the motor mounts first, i think you'll be surprised. i made my motor mounts out of some scrap 1/2" rubber i had, but even an old tire might work, just take an appropriate sized hole saw and make one for each mounting point of the engine to frame.

 

[greasefittn]

vibration

the vibration seems to be coming from the chain its 3/8 063 173 links . the best cuts believe it or not are from 30 degree full chisel chain . I have found that the quality control of any chain is between 30 or so thousands either way of . 400 thousands top plate length . I took a new chain and found the shortest cutter .385, and shortened all to that length and for the most part it was smooth as glass . I have tryed 2 loops of granberg rip chain and i dont like the finish they leave.Its weavy but it cuts ok right out of the box. the most important part is to keep the 5 or 6 degree angle on the cutter to raker. after you cut all the cutters the same length, you have to check all the raker angles or it will chatter like crazy on hardwood, but cut ok on hemlock or pine . For a guy like me that got tired paying for wood for projects,the mill cuts fine ,but after using it this summer the winter project is a band carrage to fit the same base

 

[greasefittn]

direct drive saw

I watched the vid of the direct drive saw and im sure that it will work, it looks like a 5 or 6 hp engne. however, the chain speed will be slow even with a 10 pin sprocket, as a 4 cycle makes its peak tq below its rated 3600 run speed. it might have a hidden jack shaft to speed things up a tad to a shaft speed of 8-10 k. id like to see one closer as it looks light in weight to move.

 

[redheadwoodshed]

the vibration seems to be coming from the chain its 3/8 063 173 links . the best cuts believe it or not are from 30 degree full chisel chain . I have found that the quality control of any chain is between 30 or so thousands either way of . 400 thousands top plate length . I took a new chain and found the shortest cutter .385, and shortened all to that length and for the most part it was smooth as glass . I have tryed 2 loops of granberg rip chain and i dont like the finish they leave.Its weavy but it cuts ok right out of the box. the most important part is to keep the 5 or 6 degree angle on the cutter to raker. after you cut all the cutters the same length, you have to check all the raker angles or it will chatter like crazy on hardwood, but cut ok on hemlock or pine . For a guy like me that got tired paying for wood for projects,the mill cuts fine ,but after using it this summer the winter project is a band carrage to fit the same base

If I may ask, why are you switching to a band mill? Speed or quality? Are you going to get a horizontal shaft engine or have you got a gearbox or something to turn your drive horizontal. The reason I ask is because I can get those larger vertical shaft engines way cheaper than a horizontal of the same H.P. I want to build a mill but haven't decided yet.What do you think about a rear differential out of a small car hooked to a vertical shaft engine to turn the drive horizontal.You'd have to turn the input on the diff, straight up and they may cause a lubricating problem on the bearings there, but maybe a grease fitting could be added.Just some thoughts I've been having.
I suppose you could use the rearend off a lawn mower, but the axles don't seem stout enough for a bandsaw.

 

[kpantherpro]

If I may ask, why are you switching to a band mill? Speed or quality? Are you going to get a horizontal shaft engine or have you got a gearbox or something to turn your drive horizontal. The reason I ask is because I can get those larger vertical shaft engines way cheaper than a horizontal of the same H.P. I want to build a mill but haven't decided yet.What do you think about a rear differential out of a small car hooked to a vertical shaft engine to turn the drive horizontal.You'd have to turn the input on the diff, straight up and they may cause a lubricating problem on the bearings there, but maybe a grease fitting could be added.Just some thoughts I've been having.
I suppose you could use the rearend off a lawn mower, but the axles don't seem stout enough for a bandsaw.

problem with a rear dif is most often they are limited slip, and what that means to you is the axle that has the path of least resistance will be the one that spins, for iinstance you jack one wheel up off the ground on your car, the one in the air will be the one spinning while the one on the ground won't. you would have to modify it in some way, or add a locker, then there's gear ratio, i think the gearing would be way off to make it an effective mill, ideally from what i'm seeing you want a 2or3-1 ratio, for a bandmill i think you would be better off just going with a horizontal shaft, less engineering and less moving parts is usually a better design/better reliability.
hey Grease, how old is that bar? what kinda shape is it in? is it possible the tensioner has some flex in it, or you have the wrong sprocket, are you using auxillary oilers to keep everything nice and slickory? i know these are the simplest things but i find 9 out of 10, this is usually where a problems at, another thing i'm wondering is you mentioned your belt is slipping, i'm wondering if your getting a surging effect, where your chain isn't maintaing a constant speed, this would definately affect your cut quality as well vibration, on a csm your cut quality should be excellant, also maybe the chain your using is just too aggressive for the mill as it's set up now, might have to add that other belt and see if that works for you, i know you can order pullies already set up for double or triple belts, might be the way to go... another thought maybe a deeper sheave type pully that will grab the sides of the belt more. just some thoughts

 

[Sawyer Rob]

problem with a rear dif is most often they are limited slip, and what that means to you is the axle that has the path of least resistance will be the one that spins, for iinstance you jack one wheel up off the ground on your car, the one in the air will be the one spinning while the one on the ground won't.

Actually, you mean the problem is most are NOT limited slip... You NEED limited slip to drive both wheels. (you can weld up the spiders though)

Adding to the thread: The REAL problem is, folks trying to save money with a vertical engine. In the process, it complicates the whole build! Also, everything added, like a rear end just robs more HP.

As for switching to a bandsaw mill: run both, a CSM and a BSM and look at how much faster, easier to push and how much more lumber you get out of a log compareing compareing a BSM over a CSM, it will then answer all your questions as to why switch to a BSM!

SR

 

[kpantherpro]

Actually, you mean the problem is most are NOT limited slip... You NEED limited slip to drive both wheels. (you can weld up the spiders though)

Adding to the thread: The REAL problem is, folks trying to save money with a vertical engine. In the process, it complicates the whole build! Also, everything added, like a rear end just robs more HP.

As for switching to a bandsaw mill: run both, a CSM and a BSM and look at how much faster, easier to push and how much more lumber you get out of a log compareing compareing a BSM over a CSM, it will then answer all your questions as to why switch to a BSM!

SR

im sorry i have to disgree with you on the limited slip, limited slip was developed for tighter turning radius, and more control especailly where traction was needed but to be applied evenly so less loss of control would be experienced, it is considerd a safer drive system and most if not all of today's vehicle's use it, now posi- traction or welding the spiders up, or a locker, will force both wheels to spin at the same rate continually, and is desired in alot of applications where more power transfeered is ideally mainly as far as car related hot rods and four wheel drives.
as far as bsm and csm they both have thier places, it really depends on what you are doing and what your trying to achieve...

 

[kpantherpro]

im sorry i have to disgree with you on the limited slip, limited slip was developed for tighter turning radius, and more control especailly where traction was needed but to be applied evenly so less loss of control would be experienced, it is considerd a safer drive system and most if not all of today's vehicle's use it, now posi- traction or welding the spiders up, or a locker, will force both wheels to spin at the same rate continually, and is desired in alot of applications where more power transfeered is ideally mainly as far as car related hot rods and four wheel drives.
as far as bsm and csm they both have thier places, it really depends on what you are doing and what your trying to achieve...

oh adding to the hot rod and four wheel drives, most people seeking posi-traction in thier hot rods will swap out the limited slip dif for a posi-traction one. and the reason while most stock 4x4's get stuck is because they are limited slip, while this is excellant for snow and ice it's not good for sand and mud, that's why serious 4x enthusiasts add locker's so it still streetable but when off-roading available to them, ever seen a truck stuck one tire that's on solid ground isn't spinning but yet the one that's dug down in the mud is spinning away...limited slip

but i do agree with adding too much to try n save money, which in the long run will only end up costing you more labor, power, and eventually more money

 

[Sawyer Rob]

You can disagree if you like, but any place i've ever been, seen or heard, the term limited slip has been used to descripe every kind of clutch pack possy ever devised, sometimes even used to describe the Detroit lockers...

Eaton, Govloc and all the others were and still are called "limited slips". Even my new truck has a "limited slip" axle, and it's a posatrack.

BTW, i have Detroit Lockers too...

I'm not sure what terms you use where you live, but in the car/truck/tractor world, limited slip means both wheels turn at the same time when power is applied.

SR

Hera ya go, Limited Slip Differential

 

[kpantherpro]

ok yes you have a posi-track system, but if you go outside right now, and with out putting it in 4 wheel drive or locking the lockers or traction control and jack one wheel off the ground, the tire off the ground will spin and the other will stay stationary, this is your limited slip dif at work, and is how it should function so that if you are in ice or snow you won't slide all over the place,or lose control,it also provides more precise traction when cornering, so if he were to do this with a car dif for a bandsaw, and if he hooked one end up and left the other capped or to hang, the capped end or hanging end would be the end spinning, now if he bolted that end down or welded the end closed so it could not move the other end would start to spin, that is the way a limited slip dif works, please reread what you just posted in the description the first line pretty much says what i'm trying to get at...i'm not trying to argue with you but i've been around enough cars and worked on enough cars that this is just how it is, i can go out and do this to my f-150, my jeep or spyder and they all do it, my 63 nova ss also did it until i swapped the limited slip dif for a posi-traction one(wish i still had that car), it's also why on most cars when you do burnouts not that i would ever do anything like that.... you see one strip of rubber and the other tire doesn't leave a mark, now some more modern difs have electronic controls stock from the factory that if one tire is spinning too much will adjust the torque to the other wheel. but i doubt he'll be pulling a dif and controls from a newer car to do this...

 

[Sawyer Rob]

ok yes you have a posi-track system, but if you go outside right now, and with out putting it in 4 wheel drive or locking the lockers or traction control and jack one wheel off the ground, the tire off the ground will spin and the other will stay stationary, this is your limited slip dif at work, and is how it should function so that if you are in ice or snow you won't slide all over the place,or lose control,it also provides more precise traction when cornering, so if he were to do this with a car dif for a bandsaw, and if he hooked one end up and left the other capped or to hang, the capped end or hanging end would be the end spinning, now if he bolted that end down or welded the end closed so it could not move the other end would start to spin, that is the way a limited slip dif works, please reread what you just posted in the description the first line pretty much says what i'm trying to get at...i'm not trying to argue with you but i've been around enough cars and worked on enough cars that this is just how it is, i can go out and do this to my f-150, my jeep or spyder and they all do it, my 63 nova ss also did it until i swapped the limited slip dif for a posi-traction one(wish i still had that car), it's also why on most cars when you do burnouts not that i would ever do anything like that.... you see one strip of rubber and the other tire doesn't leave a mark, now some more modern difs have electronic controls stock from the factory that if one tire is spinning too much will adjust the torque to the other wheel. but i doubt he'll be pulling a dif and controls from a newer car to do this...

First of all, my pu WILL drive off a jack with one wheel off the ground. I've already had that happen going through a ravine.

As for burnouts... Back in the day, i drag raced a bit. I had a 63 Impala SS, a 66 Impala SS and a few more. All had limited slip, possy rear ends (call them what ever you want) and all would burn out with both wheels spinning. I also had a 72 Chevy pu, that i spl. ordered with possy in both ends, so i'm telling you i do know from experience what i'm talking about.

I think you are confuseing a "soft" locking possy, thinking it won't lock up at all. It will and does, you just have to get one wheel spinning to get the positive lockup. Centrifugal force is needed to get complete lock up, one wheel spinning gives exactly that!

BTW, i also now own 2 chevy pu's with Detroit Lockers in the rear and gear drive Gleasen Torsens in the front.

If you read the link i provided, it says it all, the limited slip WILL lock up and provide power to both wheels. The only time any one i've ever had wouldn't lock up completely, is one that had high milage and the clutch plates were worn OR the proper lube wasn't used in them..

Also, there are NO "electronic controls" in any common newer car controling the dif... They way they work is, they apply the brake to the spinning wheel. Brake the spinning wheel with an "open" dif, and the opposite wheel will start turning!

I guess i've explained it the best i can here, even provideing a good link, so you have the floor and can believe what ever you want... lol

SR

 

[greasefittn]

band minn carrage

I should have said resaw carrrage as i have a 3 car garage full of cants that i did before i built the mill. The 'mill' before was a homelite 1050 and a homemade 2X6 guide to make cants just to get the wood home I have lots of projects and although the csm works just fine it makes lotsa saw dust . the bsm carrage will fit right on the same base . I have 2 of the b&s 18 hp vertical shaft engines . Im trying to keep all of the 'running gear' as close to the same that i can

 

[redheadwoodshed]

Wow,I wonder how some of you guys get anything done the way yall can come up with reasons why you can't do something.I already knew that I would have too stop one axle from turning to put all the power into the other. I have the engines rearends and some other parts already, I also have chainsaw bars and chains, which I can maintain and sharpen.I can't do that with a band blade. If I wanted to set down and start ordering parts new, it wouldn't even be a question, I'd go with the bandmill.The problem with that is, is that that requires money.I would accept donations for a bandmill project, however.


Thanks greasefittn for sharing your mill.I like it!

 

[kpantherpro]

i apologize for getting off tangent, wasn't planning on getting derailed like that, i'm just gonna let it go...obviously you are free to try whatever you like, i was trying to prepare you for what you may be in for so if you had to you could plan ahead, and as a builder of chainsaw mills i 've played around with my own bsm designs. i have a few bigger vertical shaft motors as well laying around, but i've just learned the simpler the better, before you know it you'll be modifying this to assemble that then modding this to fix that etc. etc. etc. anyway you decide i wish you the best on getting it done, and when you do let us know how it works.
Good luck

 

[redheadwoodshed]

i apologize for getting off tangent, wasn't planning on getting derailed like that, i'm just gonna let it go...obviously you are free to try whatever you like, i was trying to prepare you for what you may be in for so if you had to you could plan ahead, and as a builder of chainsaw mills i 've played around with my own bsm designs. i have a few bigger vertical shaft motors as well laying around, but i've just learned the simpler the better, before you know it you'll be modifying this to assemble that then modding this to fix that etc. etc. etc. anyway you decide i wish you the best on getting it done, and when you do let us know how it works.
Good luck

I appreciate all the information I get here, that's why I come, there are guys here who have already done what I'd like to do, like you.Thanks. I've been off on a tangent or 2 myself.:msp_biggrin:

 

[bigjohn1895]

any chance on getting more info on your jack shaft pully system what size pulleys and where they are
im in the planning stage of building a 4 cycle csm myself but im not sure what size pulleys i need and where

 

[greasefittn]

pully size

the electric clutch on the engine is 5 inch. the pully on the 1 inch jack shaft is 3 inch. the 3 inch is the smallest pulley that is made for the taper lock. system. the bottom end of the 1 inch shaft is turned down to .502 thousands and a stihl large mount clutch drum is pressed on with a 8or 9 pin drive sproket for 3/8 163 chain i will post pictupes of the set up. the clutch needs a larger than 5 inch pully could use a6 or 8 inch but i havent seen one in the junk yard so i made one.

 

[greasefittn]

mill drive

i ****oed on the shaft size it is .498 the stihl clutch drum is .502 . heat up drum and press it on

 

[bigjohn1895]

thanks for the help looks like mine isnt goin g to get built till winter just got a wave of orders and ya gotta make hay wile the sun shines

no pictures necessary i got the idea now just need to run with it
could you let me in on what problems you had with the mill sliding up and down on the verticals were
hopefully i can avoid the problems on mine
i think the big difference is im not going as long as you 10 ft
also i think im going to make mine for a 3-4 foot wide cut as i dont need long slabs but short and wide i do alot