liability

[treeman82]

I have a client, the one with the DED trees. I sent him an e-mail the other night saying that we had to do the tree work, and that if it did not get done I could not work for him. I threw out a figure of 100 - 150 G's for the whole job ($50,000 down). Based on my walking of the property, I am going to estimate that approximately 400 - 500 trees require work of some form or another. I got an e-mail back today in which he said that he has a man who lives there permanantly who would do a lot of the tree work and asked if I could supervise him for a monthly fee. From looking at the trees which need work, the bulk of them will need at minimum a rope put in their tops. Others will require injection, others will require climbing to get them structurally pruned, dead wood pruned, or to remove hanging limbs. The guy who lives there is from Venezuela (sp?) and from what I can tell knows little to nothing about doing tree work. I would climb for the homeowner, however the groundskeeper doesn't speak a word of english, and my spanish is amateur at best. So my questions are; how much liability would I be taking on if I was to supervise the man? Also, how would you approach the situation?

FYI, the money is there to do the job at the price I threw out... seeing as how the membership dues at the country club he belongs to are $250,000 a year.

 

[Eagle1]

Have the property owner be the GC. The Venez guy will be under his employ, and you are a consultant.
Really you will have your hands full with non-English speaking workers.

If it were me, I would tell the propery owner that he would have to use me and my company exclusivley. The job sounds big.
Good luck

 

[treeman82]

Would I have any liability though if this guy gets hurt, or does damage to the property? You can't really do any major damage at the place, but if you just start dropping trees, other trees will get busted up, fences, etc.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Just because the guy has assets and money does not mean he can shell out 6 figures without flinching.

I would be concernes with the language/skill issues involved. Some of the work will be technical, then there are the chemical applications.

Are you sure all the problems need to be addressed in one season? Why would you need 50k down, to buy some equipment?

If this is so, maybe talk to him about buying the equipment and you then purchace it after the work is done for some fraction of the cost.

I'm not there, but is sounds unrealistic to say we have to do it all or nothing.

You would need to talk to legal councel on the liability issue of using his employee for this type of work, also you would have to have him check with his insurace to see if his man would be covered in the case of injury.

With a contract of this scale, I cannot understand why you leave it to email.

Whenever possible I want to have the closing visit in person, it increases my closing rate by aat least 20%

 

[Eagle1]

In terms of all or nothing I was thinking of the liability factor. If TM82 has complete control than he is liable. But if the property owner wants his own "crew" I would be nervous. Un-realilistic is true. There would be ways to shift liability.
Did I read correct that it would be just you and the Venez guy?

 

[treeman82]

From my understanding of things, I would simply be supervising and the Venezuelan guy would be doing all the work. So going with that, all I would be responsible for is marking trees and making sure that everything is going Ok.

JPS, I will give you a call tonight to seek your counsil on the subject.

 

[Ax-man]

Sounds like your client got an urge to clean up his property, called you to give some kind of estimate, not realizing the cost involved.

I seriously doubt this guy commits as he has already stated he has a man to do the work and just wants you on a consulting basis. In other words he is going to go cheap.

If you choose to consult, deal only with the owner on what the trees need. Let them figure out how to get the work done. If an accident should happen your in tlhe clear.

When it comes to jobs like this what usually happens is about 1/3 to 1/2 of what we bid gets done by uninsured tree services or fly by nights with chain saws and ladders.

Big jobs bring big headaches and problems that have to solved from start to finish.

Are you up to it?

 

[treeman82]

Ax, I was called in to do some other property maintenance services and in doing so saw what horrid condition the trees were in.

My main concern with this job, whether it be that I do it, the Venezeulan guy does it, or if it just doesn't get done is that people are going to get hurt, or property will be damaged. If a couple fences get busted up, or the cars, or pool, what have you I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. That is simply an "I told you so." However as I was saying to JPS a little while ago, G-d forbid the kids get hurt. The liability issue is irrelavent to me, I just could not have that on my conscious that somebody got hurt. I am willing to bet money that if the Venezuelan guy does the work that he will get hurt due to his lack of experience. There are several trees on that property I wouldn't go up even if you tried to chase me up there with a cattle prod.

 

[Newfie]

Don't let the gleam of money put you in a position that makes you uncomfortable, which it obviously does. You are in business providing a skilled service. If the client doesn't respect that then let him stuff his country club!

Venezuelan half-wit aside, do you have the man hours to complete this job in a reasonable time?

My business approach so far has been "my way or the highway" when a client or contractor has made an alternate suggestion that is unsafe or makes me uncomfortable.

 

[SilverBlue]

How on god’s green earth is this job going to get done with such a small work force?

More importantly do you care about risking your company name? What happens if these trees are butchered and the owner blames you for the mess?

No way man, that deal smells rotten. If you want to consult then use qualified arborists to get the job done. And even better hire someone to consult.

And by the way, the price you quoted even though I have not even seen the property sounds way out of line.

 

[murphy4trees]

I think a "face to face" is in order here as per JPS' recommendation... This is where selling becomes SELLING.....
You've got to get the value proposition across to the buyer.... What can he get from you that he can't get from the other guy... In order to do that you need to know the buyers situation... As much info about his thinking and all other info related to this situation. So you need to talk to him, ask questions and educate the buyer. Bottom line is what you can do for the customer to meet his needs (redue his liability etc) that makes him WANT to write the check.
Selling and marketing is a huge part of this (and any sucessful) business, yet the subject gets very little play on AS. I've got a friend, who was a marketing consultant.... with the downturn in the economy he became an unemployed marketing consultant... and he's been consulting for me at a significantly reduced rate for several months.... Its been huge and one of the reasons I haven't been as active on AS lately... I've been too busy....
Good luck with getting the job. As far as "supervising" goes, I'd recommend you suggest that you put everything on the ground (OK you can let the guy pull on the pull line), and the other guy cleans EVERYTHING up. Better for the trees, and all parties..

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

It sounds like he wants to hire you as a consulting arborist.
If it were me, I would take on the job as a consulting arborist. If a tree needs to be removed, just say this tree needs to be removed, don't get into specifically how it needs to come down.
As for chemical treatments, there needs to be a certified pesticide applicator.
The work that the grounds keeper can't do, your tree company could do.
I understand where he's comming from, wanting to get more work performed by a guy who is already on staff. It will be up to you to help him understand what he can do and what he can't do safely. If there's a tree that needs to be felled, perhaps you could fell it, then his guy could cut it up and clean up. He may decide after a few trees that it's more economical to just hire you.
I would not look at this as a deal breaker, just a chance to turn over some of the dirty work to his guy.
It sounds like you may have to work off a time and material scedule.

 

[treeman82]

I am thinking that I might sneak over there this week and get a couple of pictures of the kinds of stuff I am talking about. Apparently the guy is going to be out of the country for the week, so we won't be talking about this till later. Strange... every time I need to talk with him about something or get paid he doesn't have the time and always says "tomorow" or "when I get back." Possibly cause to be worried Hopefully he will leave the check for my other work there like he said he would. I asked him to leave a check for me last week. I went there to do the work and get paid... guess what wasn't there waiting for me?

I already gave the guy a price list for tree work, injections, stump grinding, etc. The 100 - 150 is where I believe the bill would come out to by the time everything is done. That is of course provided that we only worry about the larger material.

 

[Treeman14]

Just my opinion here, but I don't know ANYONE who would spend $100G on tree work. My largest single client (a billboard company) averaged about 50G/yr. but even that was too much for them after a few years. (BTW, that was a >$2 billion company.) Get your head out of the clouds, Matt and find some more realistic oppurtunities.

 

[jblimbwalker]

The history of TMan82's posts seem like a soap opera to me. Always concerned that some hack is giving us all a bad name and complaining about a friend who is likely to kill himself in a tree someday. Jeez man! If you don't think it's a good idea to work with the Venezualan guy, then don't. Simple as that. Don't bother us with this drama.

 

[Tree Machine]

I'd bail. I'd cut my losses and bail. Rich people are rich, a lot of times because they know how to hold onto a buck. You're swimming with a shark, and you are a fat, juicy chicken in a wetsuit.

I've been stiffed one single time in the last 10 years (which is pretty good from what I hear) but it was from a multi-millionaire attorney. Your 'client' has big, fat, heartless attorney friends and they can drum up all kinds of ways to not pay you, or pay you less than agreed upon, if that is their intent. And you're gonna chase him down? In my one instance, there was a firm, written estimate, signed contract, handshake, daily log of hours and he still screwed me for $1,500 less than what was agreed.

With the size of this job, you need to consider all your other jobs that won't be getting done. Howw will this affect your regular tree service and other clientele? Consider also, a job this size can take weeks longer than you intend (underestimate of time, bad weather, driving Venezuelans to the hospital and other unknowns).

Personally, I get bored if I'm on one property more than two days and it would kill me to be watching a know-nothing in a tree doing the work I would be doing 10x faster. If you're interested in 'supervising' unskilled labor, get a job as manager at McDonald's. -TM-

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I know a couple of guys who have big residential accounts that turn over between 10 and 20 k per year, but then this ain't Westchester, NY either

If Matt will approach this in a slightly different way, I think he can make it work for him. Some people never pay on time, but allways pay. The ones that make bank on roipping off the little guy are few and far between.

 

[treeman82]

I can think of a couple people off the top of my head over here who have a crew of at least 2 at their property every single work day of the year doing only tree work.

200 days? x $1,500 / day = $300,000 / year (low figure)

 

[geofore]

can he read

You can't do the Spanish? Can he read is the first question because tree books are written in many languages. A live in grounds keeper should be covered by the homeowner and some are covered by the homeowner's ins. but ask to see the proof first. You are not going to be teaching this guy to be certified to do pestiside sprays. Even if you don't do this job, a goodwill jesture of a few good books is not going to bite your wallet that hard while improving the grounds keepers Knowledge. The owner might even be willing to buy the books if he gets the benefit of a better grounds keeper from it, on the job training (book costs) are tax deductable? Who knows you might improve your spanish while teaching him/ working with him.

 

[treeman82]

I did wind up talking with my lawyer briefly tonight. I told him what the client wanted and asked what kind of liability falls on me. He told me that so long as I make it clear that I am not responsible for any bodily injury, or property damage that should come from this I am in the clear. However he did say that it would be best if I did not get involved in a situation like that in the first place. So going with that, and what you guys are saying, it's either my company does the work, or I have to stay out of it completely.