Recent changes in standards have made tree protection systems more affordable. Standards and Best Management Practices cost $18. thru ISA. A supplier I saw at tci expo is www.ipclp.com. They'll send you a kit of info n/c if you ask them. Installation of these systems is an easy way for a tree service to deliver value to their clients and profit for themselves.
Lightning Protection for trees
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Stumper
One Man Band
If the tree guy is convinced they actually help.......I think I read too much before getting into lightening protection-now I can't sell it.
Jumper
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What is so improved over lightning rods that were installed on barns houses in trees etc years ago-essentially a rod, a conductor and a grounding point?
xander9727
The Silverback
There are two schools of thought with lightning protection. 1) Lightning protection will protect trees. While they can redirect light strikes they won't absorb all of the energy from direct strikes. They will in any case lessen the impact on the tree but this may not be enough to prevent decline and/or death. 2) Lightning protect will protect structures. This is how I sell lightning protection. People who insist on have large trees over hanging their homes run a risk of damaging/crushing their home due to lightning induced failures. In this case lightning protection can provide an alternative to removing large parts or all of a large mature tree near a home. In addition the piece of mind these systems afford can be priceless.
My $.02
My $.02
NYCHA FORESTER
ArboristSite Operative
Look at an aerial photo and then try and convince a homeowner that it is effective means of preventing or even reducing a lightning strike. I guess in some regions it very well maybe worth it but I just have a hard time digesting it. If the homeowner still wants it then so be it. JMHO
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
NYCHA FORESTER said:
What do you mean by this? If you show a photo of a few trees that just really got torn apart by a strike, that really isn't proving anything. Is there a way to look at trees that have been saved by the LP? Probably not. You may know of trees that HAVE the LP, and have been saved by the LP, but since the trees look normal still, you probably assume that it's never been struck.
If the client knows what they are getting into, I say go for it. The harm to the tree during installation is negligible, and the payoff, I agree, can be priceless.
Pluss, LP is SO fun to install!!!
love
nick
NYCHA FORESTER
ArboristSite Operative
I mean that a lightning strike is a random occurance and by predicting a strike to a homeowner and selling them a system is not completely right.... I certainly agree that some species are more prone to strikes and some locals maybe more prone than others.
Yes! As long as your client understands that their is no guarantee with the system and the randomness of lightning.
I would not want to be on the recieving end of a phone call from a client (high end client) that just paid two thousand dollars or more to install a system that did not perform as advertised.
Like I said.... IMHO (its snake oil)
Yes! As long as your client understands that their is no guarantee with the system and the randomness of lightning.
I would not want to be on the recieving end of a phone call from a client (high end client) that just paid two thousand dollars or more to install a system that did not perform as advertised.
Like I said.... IMHO (its snake oil)
I've seen some data but with very small sample. All sp are susceptibleNYCHA FORESTER said:
$2000! For how many trees? High value trees are worth the protection, and properties vulnerable to libility, like golf courses, also find it worth the investment.
Snake oil? I would not tell someone who's lost a multithousand dollar value tree, costing thousands to remove, that spending a few hundred would have been bathing in snake oil. Would you?
Fireaxman
ArboristSite Guru
It is not snake oil. When TreeSpyder called my attention to the lightning hazard I remembered many hours I spent on the internet researching, and the advice of an electrical engineer, concerning lightning protection for my boats. I am assured the same basic principles apply to trees. From what I found and heard there are two methods of protection that both make very good engineering sense.
1. Dissipate electrical energy before it reaches high enough voltage to make the jump (lightning). Electrical potential dissipates from sharply pointed conductors (the "Lightning Rod" approach).
2. Provide a "Safe Path" with a well grounded conductor big enough to carry a significant portion of the charge safely to ground. Few "Safe Path" conductors small enough to handle in a tree or boat are big enough to carry the whole charge, but besides "Sidetracking" the majority of the charge they might also localize the damage from the remaining charge. Besides, much lightning damage is caused not from the main bolt, but from "Side Strikes".
I witnessed the effectiveness of "Safe Path" many times offshore. Our rig and production platform flares were routinely struck (and lit) by lightning with no damage to our platforms. The strike went straight to ground through the metal platform legs. I never saw even a little single-jacket (one well) platform no bigger than my bathroom damaged by lighning strike in 25+ years offshore.
It is a statistical game. Your client should know you cannot guarentee 100% protection. But the best information I can find assures me you can lower the odds significantly.
I'm sure it is not worth worrying about in Oregon. But in South Louisiana or Florida - worry. Maybe you cannot sell "Lighning Protection" service, but you can certainly offer "Lightning Hazard Mitigation" services in clear conscience. Rodding and cabling a tree doesn't guarentee a crotch won't fail, but it significantly lowers the odds.
1. Dissipate electrical energy before it reaches high enough voltage to make the jump (lightning). Electrical potential dissipates from sharply pointed conductors (the "Lightning Rod" approach).
2. Provide a "Safe Path" with a well grounded conductor big enough to carry a significant portion of the charge safely to ground. Few "Safe Path" conductors small enough to handle in a tree or boat are big enough to carry the whole charge, but besides "Sidetracking" the majority of the charge they might also localize the damage from the remaining charge. Besides, much lightning damage is caused not from the main bolt, but from "Side Strikes".
I witnessed the effectiveness of "Safe Path" many times offshore. Our rig and production platform flares were routinely struck (and lit) by lightning with no damage to our platforms. The strike went straight to ground through the metal platform legs. I never saw even a little single-jacket (one well) platform no bigger than my bathroom damaged by lighning strike in 25+ years offshore.
It is a statistical game. Your client should know you cannot guarentee 100% protection. But the best information I can find assures me you can lower the odds significantly.
I'm sure it is not worth worrying about in Oregon. But in South Louisiana or Florida - worry. Maybe you cannot sell "Lighning Protection" service, but you can certainly offer "Lightning Hazard Mitigation" services in clear conscience. Rodding and cabling a tree doesn't guarentee a crotch won't fail, but it significantly lowers the odds.
Strictly speaking, that is Truth in Advertising. In NC we have a lot of cause to worry. I get sent out by insurance companies to assess lightningdamaged trees, and I have to call a lot of them totaled. A lot get (valid) repair attempts that cost more than a system would.Fireaxman said:
NYCHA, maybe this is a regional thing. After all, snow protection service here would be snake oil.
NYCHA FORESTER
ArboristSite Operative
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/lpts.html
National Lightning Safety Institute
Lightning effects can be direct and/or indirect. Direct effects are from resistive (ohmic) heating, arcing and burning. Indirect effects are more probable. They include capacitive, inductive and magnetic behavior. Lightning "prevention" or "protection" (in an absolute sense) is impossible. A diminution of its consequences, together with incremental safety improvements, can be obtained by the use of a holistic or systematic hazard mitigation approach, described below in generic terms.
Summary
It is important that all of the above subjects be considered in a lightning safety analysis. There is no Utopia in lightning protection. Lightning may ignore every defense man can conceive. A systematic hazard mitigation approach to lightning safety is a prudent course of action.
Believe what you want. If you believe it then sell it.
NASA is doing alot of research in this field also... Look'em up.
National Lightning Safety Institute
Lightning effects can be direct and/or indirect. Direct effects are from resistive (ohmic) heating, arcing and burning. Indirect effects are more probable. They include capacitive, inductive and magnetic behavior. Lightning "prevention" or "protection" (in an absolute sense) is impossible. A diminution of its consequences, together with incremental safety improvements, can be obtained by the use of a holistic or systematic hazard mitigation approach, described below in generic terms.
Summary
It is important that all of the above subjects be considered in a lightning safety analysis. There is no Utopia in lightning protection. Lightning may ignore every defense man can conceive. A systematic hazard mitigation approach to lightning safety is a prudent course of action.
Believe what you want. If you believe it then sell it.
NASA is doing alot of research in this field also... Look'em up.
BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
Fireaxman said:
Exactly, and also true of many hazard protection systems. Seat belts, air bags, parachutes, life vests, a .45 on your hip
and on and on. None of them offers 100% protection. That doesn't make them useless.A colleague of mine went to work for Sprint PCS when they were just getting started, and his first job was specifying lightning protection systems for towers. Since he knew very little about it, he did extensive research on the subject. He told me he was SHOCKED (no pun intended) at the power of lightning strikes. It's nothing to play with, but its effects CAN be mitigated.
NYCHA FORESTER
ArboristSite Operative
This is what I mean by an aerial photo {s} .... I cannot with any certainty predict what if any of these trees will get struck.....Thats why when I walk on (used to) a property I don't sell LP. If the topic comes up I basicly advise them that I is a random occurrence that cannot be predicted. That even if it is installed, the proper way, it may not do anything to save the tree. Not to mention that every 3-5 years it will have to be added onto (I.E. a greater financial commitment)
Like I said before.......JMHO
Like I said before.......JMHO
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BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
Lightning protection isn't about predicting which tree (or tower, in my business) will get hit.
It's about protecting the ones you are interested in.
It's about protecting the ones you are interested in.
nycha, most of the trees that people want protection are large, mature trees, right? These are not growing quickly at all, so they will seldom need additions. Besides, a high-value tree getrs deadwooded every 3-5 years anyway so even if an addition was needed, very little time and material would be needed.NYCHA FORESTER said:
xander9727
The Silverback
I'm all about greater financial commitments and return trips. The larger repeat customer base I have the less I can spend doing estimates and advertising. As long as you are offering a legitimate service with quality work who cares if they spend a small fortune as long as they have the money. If you're being ethical and legally balanced what's the crime.
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