Lightning strike = dead tree every time?

[Doctor Dave]

It the bark, for a fact, was destoyed on 50% of the diameter, the tree instantaneously entered the hazard tree category; if it's a big tree.

The only way a tree can loose half the circumference of bark and not become a hazard tree, is if it's young, and the damage is limited in length, to say, 12" of damage.

Eventually, yes. But if the client wants to watch the tree closely, and wait until heart rot has indeed set in (or the beetles get it) that would be OK. You could put it on a list to visit each year for a fee to assess its condition.

 

[treeseer]

Mario, whethe ror not we are talking about half the circumference or half the diameter, I'd be more likely to agree with your neighbor Dave on this. Wnat is "instantaneous' about the tree becoming an irremediably high risk? (I don't like the "h" word)

 

[M.D. Vaden]

If half the diameter of cambium of dead is missing, postponing gets risky. It allows for people to transfer the tree to new ownership that may be ignorant of the danger.

In many of these cases, they get used to it and forget about it. Their diligence can go dormant.

Maybe yearly checks will work for a while, but in time, it takes 2 or more evaluations per year. Each year becomes more of a guessing game. And it becomes a roulette game not many years hence.

The hazard tree checklists are "signs" of hazard trees; indicating "potential" "hazard". A tree like that will always have at least one sign of "potential" hazard. So it has entered the realm of "hazard tree signs" if the symantics work better that way.

How does an aborist know when the too much decay is in a tree after half of it's cambium / diameter stopped functioning?

opcorn:

 

[treeseer]

So it has entered the realm of "hazard tree signs" if the symantics work better that way.

yeah that works a little better.

How does an aborist know when the too much decay is in a tree after half of it's cambium / diameter stopped functioning?opcorn:

Tough call, and it's a fairly academic question. I agree it's time to plan for removal and replacement after half of either diameter or circumference is gone.

 

[Doctor Dave]

If half the diameter of cambium of dead is missing, postponing gets risky. It allows for people to transfer the tree to new ownership that may be ignorant of the danger.

In many of these cases, they get used to it and forget about it. Their diligence can go dormant.

Maybe yearly checks will work for a while, but in time, it takes 2 or more evaluations per year. Each year becomes more of a guessing game. And it becomes a roulette game not many years hence.

The hazard tree checklists are "signs" of hazard trees; indicating "potential" "hazard". A tree like that will always have at least one sign of "potential" hazard. So it has entered the realm of "hazard tree signs" if the symantics work better that way.

How does an aborist know when the too much decay is in a tree after half of it's cambium / diameter stopped functioning?

opcorn:

I don't quite follow your questions about "signs". Signs are physical evidence that allows identification of a disease or insect agent that potentially has damaged a tree; think beetle larvae under the bark, sapwood stain, or fungal fruiting bodies (conks). OTH, symptoms develop in a living tree, and may have multiple causes; these include a wilted crown, chlorotic leaves, or crown dieback. Some clues are a little of each, such as defoliation caused by chewing insects, unless one sees the particular critter, making this a sign.

Anyway, a lightning-struck tree would have a sign (the blown-out vertical furrow, maybe charred, which only points to lightning, baring someone lighting off a string of detonation cord), as well as symptoms over time, perhaps crown die-back due to loss of sapwood. Decay would be a new symptom; the decay organism could be identified based on signs: a virulent pathogen such as Armilaria leaves black zone lines in the wood, rhizomorphs under the bark ("shoestrings", hence the common name, shoe string fungus), and brown mushrooms at the base. See that, REMOVE IT. OTH, some heartwood decays are slow, and do not affect the live sapwood--they are saprophytes (eat dead stuff); the tree could be kept for quite a while so long as the new wood is growing vigorously. Rule of thumb: you need at least 1/3 of the cross sectional area as sound wood, but typically one would prescribe a crown thinning/reduction as an added safety measure.

 

[treeseer]

a virulent pathogen such as Armilaria leaves black zone lines in the wood, rhizomorphs under the bark ("shoestrings", hence the common name, shoe string fungus), and brown mushrooms at the base. See that, REMOVE IT.

1. Some species of armillaria are not virulent. Even mellea is not always virulent or inevitably fatal on a host with high vitality. Unless symptoms are major, TREAT IT.

2. Treatments are simple and straightforward--disinfect and introduce competitors to the armillaria. there was a good article on this in tci a while back. I've had 2 big white oaks lose all signs of infection after treatment. Thanks for the reminder--it's time for a checkup on them.

ps the shrooms are as close to gold as they are to brown.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I don't quite follow your questions about "signs". Signs are physical evidence that allows identification of a disease or insect agent that potentially has damaged a tree; think beetle larvae under the bark, sapwood stain, or fungal fruiting bodies (conks). OTH, symptoms develop in a living tree, and may have multiple causes; these include a wilted crown, chlorotic leaves, or crown dieback. Some clues are a little of each, such as defoliation caused by chewing insects, unless one sees the particular critter, making this a sign.

Anyway, a lightning-struck tree would have a sign (the blown-out vertical furrow, maybe charred, which only points to lightning, baring someone lighting off a string of detonation cord), as well as symptoms over time, perhaps crown die-back due to loss of sapwood. Decay would be a new symptom; the decay organism could be identified based on signs: a virulent pathogen such as Armilaria leaves black zone lines in the wood, rhizomorphs under the bark ("shoestrings", hence the common name, shoe string fungus), and brown mushrooms at the base. See that, REMOVE IT. OTH, some heartwood decays are slow, and do not affect the live sapwood--they are saprophytes (eat dead stuff); the tree could be kept for quite a while so long as the new wood is growing vigorously. Rule of thumb: you need at least 1/3 of the cross sectional area as sound wood, but typically one would prescribe a crown thinning/reduction as an added safety measure.

Signs - as an entire list - are not proof.

For example, "lean" is one of the ISA and arboriculture "signs" of a hazard tree.

But that's all "lean" is, is a sign. It's not a proof. There are many trees that lean, such as the edge of a grove, that can be more sturdy and sound than some straight trees.

So a "sign" is a characteristic that points to the tree, for paying closer attention to it, as to whether or not it is a real danger.

Deadwood clinging-on by a thread, would be both one of the signs of hazard trees, as well as an immediate hazard.

 

[treeseer]

For example, "lean" is one of the ISA and arboriculture "signs" of a hazard tree.
.

Mario where are you getting this from?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Mario where are you getting this from?

Now that I found the brochure / PDF file, it's the Pacific NW chapter of the ISA. I knew that someone affiliated with the ISA had it, because the Pacific NW director mentioned working on the information, a couple of years ago.

It may be that the "8 signs" list is housed within just that chapter. But I've come across the list elsewhere: aside from the website for Collier Arbor Care in the Portland, Oregon area.

It would be surprising if the ISA PNW chapter did not cross reference their color brochure to this type of publication:

https://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/A-Photographic-Guide-to-the-Evaluation-of-Hazard-Trees-in-Urban-Areas-Workbook-P24C25.aspx

The Rocky Mountain Chapter has it in this list here too:

http://www.isarmc.org/pro/Publications.htm

There are references to the hazard tree guides on websites ranging from university extension services, to arboriculture societies.


opcorn:

 

[Doctor Dave]

1. Some species of armillaria are not virulent. Even mellea is not always virulent or inevitably fatal on a host with high vitality. Unless symptoms are major, TREAT IT.

2. Treatments are simple and straightforward--disinfect and introduce competitors to the armillaria. there was a good article on this in tci a while back. I've had 2 big white oaks lose all signs of infection after treatment. Thanks for the reminder--it's time for a checkup on them.

ps the shrooms are as close to gold as they are to brown.

I didn't realize that treatments were out there for Armillaria. I've mostly observed its impact on forest trees after they fail; it really does a job "mushifying" prop roots and tree butts. Although tere is some argument among mycologists over what species is what, in the northwest the one that commonly causes tree failure is A. ostoyae Is the treatment introduction of mycorrhizal species that compete with Armillaria?

 

[treeseer]

I didn't realize that treatments were out there for Armillaria. Is the treatment introduction of mycorrhizal species that compete with Armillaria?

yes plus the sanitation and stuff described in the nov 2003 tci article by harold mitchell in CA. (can't access archives that old--?)

 

[Doctor Dave]

yes plus the sanitation and stuff described in the nov 2003 tci article by harold mitchell in CA. (can't access archives that old--?)

I'll try to find it. I'm in orchard country; if Armillaria is discovered in apple or pear, the treatment is to pull the tree, surrounding trees (not sure how far out, probably at least an acre), burn them, cover the ground with plastic and fumigate (not sure if methyl bromide is still alowed for this, I think it's being phased out). Not something you could do for a yard tree!

 

[bushman]

I had a lightning hit my neighbors pine tree friday night in the noreaster storm,the tree is a rightbeside my bedroom,what a alarm clock at 5.ooam .what is interesting is the way the lighting traveled around the tree.it's double trunk 90plus lob.pine and cabled top.which we installed and pruned because it's to close btween our houses,and they won't remove it.but thats another story.the lightning traveled around the top of the tree ,down one side followed the cable down the trunk to there house and blew a hole in the roof next to the plumbing vent which ligtning love's copper.my neb said the cable attracted the lightning .what your opinion?

 

[treeseer]

bushman Please Post Pictures and if possible measurements; I will pay for them if need be.

re cable attracting, that sounds like what he sees eh?

 

[Doctor Dave]

Now that I found the brochure / PDF file, it's the Pacific NW chapter of the ISA. I knew that someone affiliated with the ISA had it, because the Pacific NW director mentioned working on the information, a couple of years ago.

It may be that the "8 signs" list is housed within just that chapter. But I've come across the list elsewhere: aside from the website for Collier Arbor Care in the Portland, Oregon area.

It would be surprising if the ISA PNW chapter did not cross reference their color brochure to this type of publication:

https://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/A-Photographic-Guide-to-the-Evaluation-of-Hazard-Trees-in-Urban-Areas-Workbook-P24C25.aspx

The Rocky Mountain Chapter has it in this list here too:

http://www.isarmc.org/pro/Publications.htm

There are references to the hazard tree guides on websites ranging from university extension services, to arboriculture societies.


opcorn:

I'm sure these publications are good. One can get too hung up on terminology. I believe that I picked up the signs vs. symptoms terminology from what is considered "the bible" of pest ID:

Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs, Johnson and Lyon, 1991, Cornell Univ. Press, 560 p. There is also a companion volume on dieases.

They define the difference this way (p. 11):

"A symptom is an injury by, or a plant response to, a pest agent. A sign is the pest organism itself, its skeleton, or a product produced by the pest; a sign is helpful in identifying the cause oif a symtom".

Just baught two new books that should be good:

Preliminary Species Profiles for Tree Failure Assessment, Dunster & Associates Environmental Consultants Limited, 2003, BC, 42p.

Evaluation of Hazard Trees in Urban Areas, Matheny and Clark, 1994, ISA, 85 p.

 

[ropensaddle]

Signs - as an entire list - are not proof.

For example, "lean" is one of the ISA and arboriculture "signs" of a hazard tree.

But that's all "lean" is, is a sign. It's not a proof. There are many trees that lean, such as the edge of a grove, that can be more sturdy and sound than some straight trees.

So a "sign" is a characteristic that points to the tree, for paying closer attention to it, as to whether or not it is a real danger.

Deadwood clinging-on by a thread, would be both one of the signs of hazard trees, as well as an immediate hazard.

So you mean like this lol cheers:

 

[ropensaddle]

As far as trees living through lightning strikes, My experience the worst effected are where the current travels and kills roots. The most accurate thing we can say is; it is definitely a stress factor which can lead to mortality. Careful monitoring if near structures or pathways would be prudent. I could not put out a blanket statement such as immediate removal required ect as strikes can be severe or minimal.

 

[defensiblespace]

I think a lot of it depends on the species of tree and the intensity of the strike. Around here the white firs usually get blown to pieces, but the jeffrey pines just lose some bark. I think this is partly due to the fact that the firs retain more moisture. I have removed several lightning struck trees, including this one a few days ago.

 

[jefflovstrom]

I think a lot of it depends on the species of tree and the intensity of the strike. Around here the white firs usually get blown to pieces, but the jeffrey pines just lose some bark. I think this is partly due to the fact that the firs retain more moisture. I have removed several lightning struck trees, including this one a few days ago.View attachment 431627

 

[Seedling345]

Ok so this happened about 1 month ago I noticed a pine tree on a property I maintain had been struck by lightning. Direct strike, blew bark off one side of the tree and burned the grass around it. Here one month later the tree doesnt appear quite as deep green as the others around it but still doesnt show any serious signs of dying. A few burned branched and a sh!tload of sap comming down to the truck of it. Anyway, I am supposed to fell this thing tommorrow and am not sure if it is definately dead? I imagine it couldnt possibly survive a direct strike but?? Opinions? Appreciate the input.

I don't know any of the technical stuff about it but for what my .2 cents is worth my grandmas red pine was hit when I was little the top half died but it grew two new top leads a couple years later but like I said I'm a noob that don't know **** yet


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