Locust woes

[Gopher]

Locust again

I use science, but the science of the gut has yet to be determined!

The larger side of the two main stems is 19" diameter with the mat through about 75% of it; the smaller side is 17" diameter with the mat through about 50%.

Mike, if I cable anywhere above the "included mat", I have now moved my point of failure up from the main split to the incuded mat spot which looks bad to me. That is the problem. If it were just the cable, I would have already pruned and cabled this one. It is not like a narrow cable the tree has grown around; there is still flexible thick mat in there.

I can do plenty to alleviate the issue where the tree has newly cracked; the main fork. I can't do anything where the mat is grown in. There would have do be far to much reduction in the canopy to make it worth the effort. The owner of the last 14 years, made the job difficult by surrounding it with new trees. I'm talking Wisconsin here, and he even has persimmon (fruit this year) near the barn; knowledgable, and understands what I have informed him.

The issue I want to focus on is the included mat. As I said, the worst of the two sides is 19 inches diameter, and the mat is in the tree at least 75% There is a good 50 feet of tree above this point. It would be like making an undercut with your chain saw and cutting in too far and pinching the bar (oh, no one has ever done that, I forgot). The pressure is great. This is what is holding the south portion of the tree. If I cable and with wind force, the pull from the north changes the whole picture.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The mats may give you some cushion in regards to pulling the cables out. From the pictures, the tree hasn't lost much strength yet. Get the old cables out and it can start getting back to normal.
When the phloem is blocked of, you get swelling above the girdle. You don't have that yet, so things are still functioning.
In one picture you can see the mat squished into the trunk by the cable. If you just cut the cable, and gently pulled out the mat, you'd have a dent that would quickly fill out.
When you have a multi-stemmed tree like this one, cables have tremendous ability to hold things together. Even if the large stem failed, the cables could hold it up. And what's the target? Some cheesy trees they got from Home depot and planted too deep?

 

[Dadatwins]

Would have been nice to see the leaf growth in the summer on the girdled limb to help determine how much, if any flow is being blocked off. Looking at the amount of growth up top I can't say for certain the cable has restricted the limbs growth. The limbs are all still symetrical in height and girth, and I also don't see the bulging that occurs when I find ropes and chains, ect buried in trees. My guess would be most of that mat has weathered away rather than being swallowed up by the tree. Locust is an amazingly strong wood. I would install another cable up higher before doing any cutting on the old cable, but a drill/dremel with a cutting bit should cut it up easy enough.

 

[Gopher]

Locust etal

Well, Mike, they aren't cheesy trees purchased who-knows-where, and they are planted quite well, doing well (although the cherry and linden need corrective pruninng bigtime - no surprise there) and the two sycamore trees in front of the locust have been there for 4 or 5 years and to replace them it would run about 6 to 800 bucks each.

One has to take all of this into consideration.

Oh, and the house.

If there were slightly more room to work (the trunk is about 20 feet from the home, limbs reach over it) I believe I would recommend a number of remedies you have mentioned. I have done many "resurrections over the years.

I don't believe this will be one of them.

Often we can extend a tree's useful life through a myriad of tools and knowledge we possess IF the tree has defects, poor structure soil disturbance, etc. If we also have to overcome another human's mistake, then the chance of being successful really goes down.

It's the same in any field; if a plumber messes up the job, it costs more to fix the problem (if it can be); if a doctor messes up an operation you may be able to have another surgery or you may be dead; correcting a problem is much easier the first time.

We need to be able to distinguish the areas we can be successful, and those where we are doomed to fail.

Remember "Evil Kneivel"? After hundreds of operations to fix broken body parts, the doctors pretty-much threw in the towel. We arborists have to know when to throw in the towel as well. I don't call it giving up; I call it being truthful and economic.

Sorry I got lengthy. I braced and cabled a Norway maple tree in a city park where I live two years ago; the 45 foot tall tree looks very good. The tree split into co-dominant stems at about five feet; when I was in the crown, I thought I'd be able to push the tree apart. Two rods, and three separate cables, and the tree should hopefuly be there another 25.

Didn't your mothers tell you, "Choose your battles?"

We are better for comparing our notes. Thank you again for keeping my mind refreshed.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

If you the removal is based on the included cables you pictured, then I disagree.
If the decision is based on the saving the small trees, and the homeowner doesn't like the tree, then cut it down.
The tree looks like a very simple, straight forward removal. I can't think of a species of tree easier to climb than a honeylocust. The pictures show a nice spot to lower everything, and several nice lowering points. I don't see a need for a crane, but they can be work savers if you have cheap access to one.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

After you remove the tree, and I'm confident you will (you made that decision before you posted here), do a biopsy on the included cable so we can see the strength loss.

 

[treeseer]

After you remove the tree, and I'm confident you will (you made that decision before you posted here), do a biopsy on the included cable so we can see the strength loss.

I agree with Mike, the decision seems to have been influenced by the gut early on. That's a hard influence to get rid of; I have trouble with that too.

Re biopsy, I'm wondering if it's possible to do one now. Can you cut a wedge out of the tissue that has grown outside of the tie, to see if circulation and tissue connection has been restored through compression? This area needs a closer look.

This may be just academic, and it is only one factor in strength loss. The bigger unknown is the tree's structural dynamics with all that foreign matter inside, and the break in so much of the xylem. Given the factors Dave has described, I wouldn't question the owner's decision to remove.

 

[boynature]

just a thought!!

" Choose your battles"??? I would have recommended cutting down a crummy invasive species like the Norway maple in the park and replacing it with a honey locust. Just a thought.

boynat

 

[Roylee]

Risks involved with cabling

The trouble with cabling is that it needs to be inspected regularly. Over the long term, how can an arborist be sure that a cabling system is properly managed? Fine if the owner is intelligent and consistent in the care of trees. What happens when an owner sells and a new owner comes in totally oblivious to the maintenance program he/she inherited. Far better to transistion owners to structurally healthy trees and accept that they have a limited life. Until there are bylaws that require the central registration of cabling systems along with mandatory inspection regimes, I am loath to recommend cabling unless there it is clearly a short term solution that transitions to a true longer term solution.

Sounds like the owner had a good idea but execution was terrible, he didn't look after the new trees coming in, he forget to maintain his cabling system, and it sounds like he forgot to inform the new owner. Sounds pretty typical to me.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Maintenance of a tree with a cable system shouldn't be much different than one without. A tree without cables can develop hazardous conditions too. Cracks can develop in tight crotches, hollows can enlarge, large dead limbs can fall, roots can rot or be damaged. No tree is safe forever if targets exist, cable or not.

 

[Roylee]

If a clear hazard exists why complicate the situation with cabling that may or may not be maintained. A question I ask myself is, in the event of neglect of 20 years, would I still be relatively comfortable with the situation? Is the tree structurally sound enough to carry on without intervention over a twenty year time frame (Yes some stuff will escape notice and yes some minor issues will probably arise over that time frame). A conservative approach to risk management is to remove clear hazards given the lack of control over the long term maintenance of a tree.

 

[treeseer]

If a clear hazard exists why complicate the situation with cabling that may or may not be maintained. A question I ask myself is, in the event of neglect of 20 years, would I still be relatively comfortable with the situation? Is the tree structurally sound enough to carry on without intervention over a twenty year time frame (Yes some stuff will escape notice and yes some minor issues will probably arise over that time frame). A conservative approach to risk management is to remove clear hazards given the lack of control over the long term maintenance of a tree.

20 years? That is insane. The only plant you are comfortable whit in that time frame is grass. I believe in conservatism, but 20 years of zero mtc?

 

[blackwaterguide]

botched cable job black locust

Agree with Treeseer. Tough,dense wood. Have some posts still in place circa Civil War....But! Never, Ever, risk life or limb (no pun) of "civilians" Court may not give a hoot what a guy signs-remember it is at judges discretion. You are supposed to Know (knowledge). Take no risk with others property or life, cut the dang thing down. Hey, it's great firewood.

 

[rebelman]

Gopher has been in the canopy of the tree. His gut tells him it needs removing. He's been in the tree. Twenty years is a reasonable time. Many trees I trim have never been trimmed before, and will likely never be trimmed again. I have had cables fail, but many are still good after more than fifteen years.Good thread.

 

[Roylee]

I have seen many trees neglected for far longer than 20 years. I get leery about putting something in that requires regular inspection and maintenance on a homeowners property because I worry about continuity. I feel better about it for places like golf courses and trees owned and maintained by municipalities (though my local one doesn't seem to stay on top of structural pruning on young trees). A tree with good structure should still have a good core structure after 20 years without maintenance (barring natural disasters or other human disturbance).

 

[hornett22]

i'd take it down if it were me.

i still don't see immediate danger.

a crane? really? no one climbs anymore?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

i'd take it down if it were me.

What if the customer wanted to save the tree? You'd say cut it down or walk away?

 

[Monk]

I would remove it for 2 reasons mainly, first it is a rather large tree near the owners house thats structural strength has been compromised due to old injuries and new ones and further more compromised by the attempt to repair the first split. Second the homeowner is already prepared for the possibility of it needing removed he has planted replacement trees to grow into the locust place which you said are in near proximity to the tree and would be at risk of being lost if the tree would fall on them. I would tell the landowner what his options are a what risk and cost are involved with each and let him make the decision.