Loggers... Adapt and overcome?

[Metals406]

I know a lot of you are seeing mills close, and log prices tank (same here), but I'm also seeing some companies adapting to firewood sales.

Forrest (Funky Sawman) in Sandpoint ID, is saying that the logging company he works for is going to cut trees for firewood sales this year. The logging company he works for is out of Whitefish MT, just up the Hwy from me.

A guy in Maine is buying FS contracts and turning all the timber into firewood... He's converted shipping containers into wood fired kilns, and can turn out green wood, into seasoned, in a 4 day cure... He said he's getting $350.00 a cord for kiln dried hardwoods--and he can hardly keep up with orders.

How many of you loggers have thought about this? I've thought about it a lot!! I figure you could start off with two container kilns, set up and ready to go for about $8,500.00 give or take. The expanded metal baskets (for curing the wood in the kilns) would probably cost another $2,500.00--for the steel to fab 2-3 big baskets.

The kilns allow you to market the harvested green wood almost right away, so you can get some cash flow, and start to chew away at some overhead. Obviously, volume is going to be the name of the game here. If you can buy the timber at $3.00 a cord, you could sell it for $150.00 a cord and do well I think? I'm talking conifers here, for the $150.00 a cord example, I'm sure hardwoods would sell for more.

The goal would be to move as much wood as possible in a 6-8 month period. What do you think? Is this a viable option to keep men working in the woods?

 

[slowp]

A couple of decks of muddy logs sold for $62 per cord yesterday. It was a sealed bid auction. The decks contained a mixture of D-fir and hemlock. I think there were 5 bidders on it.

 

[Metals406]

A couple of decks of muddy logs sold for $62 per cord yesterday. It was a sealed bid auction. The decks contained a mixture of D-fir and hemlock. I think there were 5 bidders on it.

Do you know if that was for wholesale price or if they were the end-users?

I get wood permits up here for 5 bucks a cord from the FS... I don't see why someone would pay 65?

 

[Cletuspsc]

I have heard of kiln dryed fire wood but never thought of doin it myself.

I have been doing a boat load more split wood since the log prices tanked. But personally I much rather sell fuel wood log length. One thing I have put a lot of thought into is to buy a lumber type boom truck with the pallet forks and deliver split wood stacked on 4'x4' pallets 4' high. It would make deliverys very quick and you could get about 8 to 10 cords on the truck.

Kilin drying the wood would deffiantly open up another market, especially with the second home owner types.

 

[Metals406]

I have heard of kiln dryed fire wood but never thought of doin it myself.

I have been doing a boat load more split wood since the log prices tanked. But personally I much rather sell fuel wood log length. One thing I have put a lot of thought into is to buy a lumber type boom truck with the pallet forks and deliver split wood stacked on 4'x4' pallets 4' high. It would make deliverys very quick and you could get about 8 to 10 cords on the truck.

Kilin drying the wood would deffiantly open up another market, especially with the second home owner types.

On the boom truck... My thoughts exactly! That's the same thing I have envisioned for delivery... It would give you the ability to deliver pallets of wood, pretty much anywhere.

Great minds think alike.

 

[slowp]

Do you know if that was for wholesale price or if they were the end-users?

I get wood permits up here for 5 bucks a cord from the FS... I don't see why someone would pay 65?

Because it was for commercial use. That would be their wholesale,unprocessed price. Then they plan to buck it up and sell it for $200 per cord, and then that buyer will sell it to campers for around $400/cord but he'll sell it by the bundle. The campfire wood market is the highest paying niche around here.

The wood was stuff that came down in the big slide.

Tsk, tsk. The $5.00 a cord permit is not supposed to be for commercial use.
It's supposed to be for personal use.

 

[Taxmantoo]

It's supposed to be for personal use.

Maybe he was saying "Why buy wood when you can cut it yourself for $5 plus gas/oil?"

 

[Ohiowoodguy]

Firewood is fine when its going for $200-$350/cord. But there's so many laid-off :censored:guys with a pick-up and Poulan, that go out and get a cord a day, and sell it for $100-$120/cord! They don't care that the national average is (was) $300/cord, they're just trying to feed their kids. You gotta move ALOT of firewood at even $150/cord to show a profit after wages, fuel, and equipment cost- if you're trying to do it as a full time business

 

[redprospector]

I think that a guy is going to have to diversify if he's going to survive this economy.
I bid on thinning project's when they're available, but I don't have the heart to cut it all into firewood. Soft wood prices for firewood may be $150 to $200 a cord right now, but if logging companies start putting thousands of cords out there and flood the market prices will drop. That's not taking into account that this economy alone may drive firewood prices down.

With all the mill's closing around here, I pulled my old band mill out of moth ball's and put it back to work. Custom sawing & beams is the bread & butter there. It's not much, but it brings in some money and every bit counts. What won't make saw log's get's run through the processor and turned into firewood, along with the slab's. I've been selling The firewood wholesale to a woodlot for $100 a cord. If it's not a long haul I can usually get 9 cords every two day's. I hate dealing with the public, so wholesale is the way to go for me. The slab wood I sell for whatever I can get for it if it will clear expenses. I give a lot of it to elderly folk's who heat with wood, and are on a fixed income.
Now all I need is a thinning project to come up for bid. I'm running short on log's.

I'm not putting all my egg's in one basket.

Andy

 

[Kunes]

I think that a guy is going to have to diversify if he's going to survive this economy.
I bid on thinning project's when they're available, but I don't have the heart to cut it all into firewood. Soft wood prices for firewood may be $150 to $200 a cord right now, but if logging companies start putting thousands of cords out there and flood the market prices will drop. That's not taking into account that this economy alone may drive firewood prices down.

With all the mill's closing around here, I pulled my old band mill out of moth ball's and put it back to work. Custom sawing & beams is the bread & butter there. It's not much, but it brings in some money and every bit counts. What won't make saw log's get's run through the processor and turned into firewood, along with the slab's. I've been selling The firewood wholesale to a woodlot for $100 a cord. If it's not a long haul I can usually get 9 cords every two day's. I hate dealing with the public, so wholesale is the way to go for me. The slab wood I sell for whatever I can get for it if it will clear expenses. I give a lot of it to elderly folk's who heat with wood, and are on a fixed income.
Now all I need is a thinning project to come up for bid. I'm running short on log's.

I'm not putting all my egg's in one basket.

Andy

ooh i like the perspective you put it in. i know hope all these companys do not start selling firewood like hotcakes.

 

[madhatte]

Meanwhile, on the (federal) ownership where I work, we've been seeing up to 50Mbf/section stolen this winter, either as blowdowns or as standing timber. The surrounding towns all have a couple of pickups in parking lots loaded up with split firewood selling for $75-100/cord. Can't prove anything since they leave the bark on the landing. I've been hot enough on their trail before that I could still smell the exhaust in the chips, but they were already gone.

 

[Metals406]

Because it was for commercial use. That would be their wholesale,unprocessed price. Then they plan to buck it up and sell it for $200 per cord, and then that buyer will sell it to campers for around $400/cord but he'll sell it by the bundle. The campfire wood market is the highest paying niche around here.

The wood was stuff that came down in the big slide.

Tsk, tsk. The $5.00 a cord permit is not supposed to be for commercial use.
It's supposed to be for personal use.

Yes, that's why I asked if it was a wholesale deal... And I know that the 5 bucks a cord/12 cord limit is for personal use... And indeed that's what I use it for. I haven't had to cut firewood on National Forests in a number of years, I live on 27 acres, and 18 of it's wooded... I did buy a permit last year, and I never used the blasted thing!

It's funny you mention personal use, because not one person I know that cuts wood, doesn't at least sell a couple cords a year from the take.

 

[Metals406]

My wife just handed me an envelope... Apparently she checked the mail today?

This was inside:

FRONT

BACK

 

[slowp]

In the immediate area, kids and others sell it for $120 to $150 a cord. A friend of mine is all excited that it is going for $200 in the Seattle area. But yes, there's going to be a lot of laid off people selling it, and it is a lot of hard work for that $200 plus time and gas trucking it there.

We sell good saw logs for firewood because it gets through the hoops easier than timber. Supposedly, it is less ground disturbing. The enviro groups hate to see what they perceive as corporations buying timber. They also don't like it when loggers get the job and they are Oregon based. But those so called corporations put a lot of money in our economy. Those out of state loggers rent motel rooms or trailer spaces locally. They often hire local people to help out too.

We get credit towards meeting our timber target with firewood sales too. It isn't right, but that's what goes on.

Sometimes the firewood goes to the mill afterall. Sometimes it is specified that it has to be whacked up into firewood chunks prior to leaving the site.
It is another complicated process.

 

[Metals406]

In the immediate area, kids and others sell it for $120 to $150 a cord. A friend of mine is all excited that it is going for $200 in the Seattle area. But yes, there's going to be a lot of laid off people selling it, and it is a lot of hard work for that $200 plus time and gas trucking it there.

We sell good saw logs for firewood because it gets through the hoops easier than timber. Supposedly, it is less ground disturbing. The enviro groups hate to see what they perceive as corporations buying timber. They also don't like it when loggers get the job and they are Oregon based. But those so called corporations put a lot of money in our economy. Those out of state loggers rent motel rooms or trailer spaces locally. They often hire local people to help out too.

We get credit towards meeting our timber target with firewood sales too. It isn't right, but that's what goes on.

Sometimes the firewood goes to the mill afterall. Sometimes it is specified that it has to be whacked up into firewood chunks prior to leaving the site.
It is another complicated process.

slowp... Is there a website I can go to, that will help me understand that prospectus they sent me?

I Google Earthed the site, and it's all burn salvage... I know the area quite well, as it's one I hunt every year. The entire area was closed to personal firewood cutting (the fire was 6 years ago), and now I know why... The FS wanted to wait and turn it all into a commercial sale. I know a lot of the timber is merchantable... But they made it a firewood sale due to the crappy lumber market.

 

[Metals406]

The dead standing is a lot thicker in places, other than what this picture shows.

 

[Jacob J.]

I think that a guy is going to have to diversify if he's going to survive this economy.
I bid on thinning project's when they're available, but I don't have the heart to cut it all into firewood. Soft wood prices for firewood may be $150 to $200 a cord right now, but if logging companies start putting thousands of cords out there and flood the market prices will drop. That's not taking into account that this economy alone may drive firewood prices down.

With all the mill's closing around here, I pulled my old band mill out of moth ball's and put it back to work. Custom sawing & beams is the bread & butter there. It's not much, but it brings in some money and every bit counts. What won't make saw log's get's run through the processor and turned into firewood, along with the slab's. I've been selling The firewood wholesale to a woodlot for $100 a cord. If it's not a long haul I can usually get 9 cords every two day's. I hate dealing with the public, so wholesale is the way to go for me. The slab wood I sell for whatever I can get for it if it will clear expenses. I give a lot of it to elderly folk's who heat with wood, and are on a fixed income.
Now all I need is a thinning project to come up for bid. I'm running short on log's.

I'm not putting all my egg's in one basket.

Andy

There's going to be a lot of fuels reduction contracts out there this summer and fall as well. BLM in central Oregon is planning to put up about 162,000 acres of fuels work in the next month or so, with BIA and NPS throwing substantial amounts in the pot as well. So the diversification factor will play heavily for the area loggers here. I already have a logger lined up to do 5,500 acres in our park.

 

[Junior]

Firewood is fine when its going for $200-$350/cord. But there's so many laid-off :censored:guys with a pick-up and Poulan, that go out and get a cord a day, and sell it for $100-$120/cord! They don't care that the national average is (was) $300/cord, they're just trying to feed their kids. You gotta move ALOT of firewood at even $150/cord to show a profit after wages, fuel, and equipment cost- if you're trying to do it as a full time business

Been seeing a lot of that here, every unemployed logger is cutting firewood and driving the price into the ground. Just seen a flyer at the hardware store that said "seasoned mix $75/cord delivered locally"

 

[slowp]

slowp... Is there a website I can go to, that will help me understand that prospectus they sent me?

I Google Earthed the site, and it's all burn salvage... I know the area quite well, as it's one I hunt every year. The entire area was closed to personal firewood cutting (the fire was 6 years ago), and now I know why... The FS wanted to wait and turn it all into a commercial sale. I know a lot of the timber is merchantable... But they made it a firewood sale due to the crappy lumber market.

I can't think of a website for that. The best thing to do is to go over it carefully, then call or visit your friendly Timber Sale Administrator, who might be bored right now. I can try to answer some questions if I can blow the thing up to see it. The important thing to remember is: The Prospectus is NOT the contract. If there is a difference, and believe me, there can be some differences, the contract is the document that rules.

I've got a website pasted up at work for finding out how to get registered for road fixing contracts and stuff. I'll try to post it here tomorrow.

 

[Metals406]

I can't think of a website for that. The best thing to do is to go over it carefully, then call or visit your friendly Timber Sale Administrator, who might be bored right now. I can try to answer some questions if I can blow the thing up to see it. The important thing to remember is: The Prospectus is NOT the contract. If there is a difference, and believe me, there can be some differences, the contract is the document that rules.

I've got a website pasted up at work for finding out how to get registered for road fixing contracts and stuff. I'll try to post it here tomorrow.

Thanks slowp... I've been researching online all day, and found some stuff I was looking for but not all.

I think, like you said, I'll just go to the FS office. My cousin works there, and I'll pick her brain. I edumecated myself on this stuff today, to the point I'm rather scared! LOL

There's no road building/maintenance stuff on the prospectus, but like you said, it's not the contract. I'll make sure I have a heads up on all possibilities before I even consider bidding. It's not a huge sale (132 acres), but the turnaround is June 15th, to September 30th.

I made some calls today to some guys I know, to see if they'd be up to doing this with me... You know it would break my heart to have to camp all summer, and drop trees all day!! LOL