Now they're takiing on the Boy Scouts. This article is lengthy.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/scoutslogging/397864_loggingmain29.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/scoutslogging/397864_loggingmain29.html
Logging and Boy Scouts
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forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
alot of the reason (at least around here) is no one wants to join boy scouts. so instead of spending manual labor hours and empty money into scout camps we sell it off - logging or otherwise.
the local scout camp here got sold off cause of lack of interest and volunteering; and is now a new housing development called silver lakes.
and the people that moved into silver lakes are from DFW and have loads of money but no rural/woods smarts.
edit: from the article - i didn't realize philmont scout ranch did any kind of logging, and i've been there several times as a participant and as a "tourist". maybe i was blind. but i never saw any sign that logging had been done.
the local scout camp here got sold off cause of lack of interest and volunteering; and is now a new housing development called silver lakes.
and the people that moved into silver lakes are from DFW and have loads of money but no rural/woods smarts.
edit: from the article - i didn't realize philmont scout ranch did any kind of logging, and i've been there several times as a participant and as a "tourist". maybe i was blind. but i never saw any sign that logging had been done.
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Lee Bradley
ArboristSite Lurker
But to get that money, the Scouts' logging broke state rules meant to protect endangered salmon, a consultant said. The council's logger misidentified the type of waterway next to the harvest site; did not properly define a potentially unstable slope that posed risks of discharging sediment into the waterway, and potentially onto Scouting camp sites; and failed to leave enough trees to meet the required size of buffer next to the waterway, said Chris Mendoza, a conservation biologist hired by Hearst to review the council's logging plan.
This the sort of cr*p you can expect from the far left (Hearst) media. The first line reads like fact but in reality it is just the opinion of Hearst's hired boy.
This the sort of cr*p you can expect from the far left (Hearst) media. The first line reads like fact but in reality it is just the opinion of Hearst's hired boy.
Labman
ArboristSite Guru
In that large of a program there are bound to be abuses. this really sounds to me like an attack on one of the few programs that hasn't lost its moral compass. the homosexuals will stop at nothing to discredit anybody that opposes them.
I'm proud to be part of a boy scout troop with my sons.
my older son is an Eagle Scout and is now attending college. my younger son is almost to his Eagle scout badge.
yes the boy scouts is a national organization, which takes $$$ to keep the lights on. BSA is far from perfect, but it's the best we got.
BSA's mission of teaching young boys to become leaders is a good one!
yes.. I've given safety lessons on chainsaws to the boys. but only at a distance. none of the boys are allowed near a chainsaw. the boys do swing an axe and knife.
we also had training sessions on gun safety and taken the boys out to our gun range.
they got to shoot all the shotgun shells they wanted... along with .22.
at Philmount scout ranch the boys learned to reload 30.06 rounds, then fire the rounds each boy loaded. ..
I've taken the boys out repelling off a 75 foot cliff at Robbers Cave national park.... etc, etc. etc.
say what you will... but the Boy Scouts is a good program worth supporting!!!
my older son is an Eagle Scout and is now attending college. my younger son is almost to his Eagle scout badge.
yes the boy scouts is a national organization, which takes $$$ to keep the lights on. BSA is far from perfect, but it's the best we got.
BSA's mission of teaching young boys to become leaders is a good one!
yes.. I've given safety lessons on chainsaws to the boys. but only at a distance. none of the boys are allowed near a chainsaw. the boys do swing an axe and knife.
we also had training sessions on gun safety and taken the boys out to our gun range.
they got to shoot all the shotgun shells they wanted... along with .22.
at Philmount scout ranch the boys learned to reload 30.06 rounds, then fire the rounds each boy loaded. ..
I've taken the boys out repelling off a 75 foot cliff at Robbers Cave national park.... etc, etc. etc.
say what you will... but the Boy Scouts is a good program worth supporting!!!
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SuperDuty335
ArboristSite Lurker
As a long time Eagle Scout, I do believe the BSA is a worthy group. It offers direction, opportunity, influence and confidence that some boys may never experience otherwise.
treejunkie13
ArboristSite Operative
I have 1 in boy scouts and 1 in cub scouts and another 1 will start next year. It's a great program.
A program that takes money to operate.
We house the Chief Cornplanter Camp. lots of beautiful land and trees.
That land and trees needs 2 be maintained anyhow.
Couple years back I did a select harvest and 2 small clear cuts (1 for a purposed sled riding hill & 1 for a view of the reservoir) all within the camp. What ever money was generated, the kids, the camp, and the land were considered.
That article was long!
A program that takes money to operate.
We house the Chief Cornplanter Camp. lots of beautiful land and trees.
That land and trees needs 2 be maintained anyhow.
Couple years back I did a select harvest and 2 small clear cuts (1 for a purposed sled riding hill & 1 for a view of the reservoir) all within the camp. What ever money was generated, the kids, the camp, and the land were considered.
That article was long!
Burvol
Bullbuck
Just think, they could be teaching those boys about pulling the rigging, setting chokers and the like...it would go right with a good set of boyscout skills. When they were done they could even replant. 
Labman
ArboristSite Guru
My wife grew up in Warren. Her father and brothers were very active in scouts. I have visited the camp.
treejunkie13
ArboristSite Operative
Just think, they could be teaching those boys about pulling the rigging, setting chokers and the like...it would go right with a good set of boyscout skills. When they were done they could even replant.
The boys got to clean up all the tops from the camp site area, they used hand saw's and back muscle, and adults with chainsaws. There was a couple groups that came out to do their winter camping while we were there working. They were all swell and quite inquisitive.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Let's review
Scouting councils have logged across at least 34,000 acres -- a figure that vastly undercounts the actual number of harvests conducted and acreage cut, as forestry records nationwide are incomplete or nonexistent.
More than 100 Scouting councils have conducted timber harvests -- one-third of all Boy Scout councils nationwide.
OK, they logged. If the press is upset because digging up nationwide figures is hard because BSA hasn't kept good records then that is bad. The fact that 1/3rd of the councils logged is not bad.
=============
At least 26 councils have logged in areas with or near protected wildlife habitat at least 53 times, a number also underrepresented.
Near protected wildlife. That's almost serious and just about worth mentioning.
===============
Councils have conducted at least 60 clearcuts and 35 salvage harvests -- logging that some scholars and ecologists say can hurt the environment and primarily aims to make money.
35 Salvage Logging events can be a great way to clean up after insect/disease and fire say some scholars and fire ecologists. This would be the portion of scholars and fire ecologists that understand that in western forests it is common for three events to each one of these cycles.
1) Insect or disease,
2) First fire,
3) Second Fire.
The question not addressed here was how was the slash generated from the logging dealt with? That is where logging can be a real asset or create even worse problems.
==============
Several councils submitted logging plans with inaccurate and incomplete information, and in some cases, disregarded rules or conditions established to protect wildlife, streams or other resources.
So what happened? Were they made to correct these and the system worked?
===============
In some cases nationwide, Scout logging and land deals have involved cozy relationships in which Scouting councils have conducted business with current or former Scouting volunteers, their private companies, employers or in one case, a state regulator.
The State Regulator sounds criminal. The other cozy relationships could be a problem within Scouting by-laws but that would be their option. Where this is a real problems is did BSA get shorted? By either cash loss or poor representation.
+++++++++++++++++++
A good portion of this opening barrage is just complaining by those that don't want any logging at all. Anywhere.
I don't doubt that there haven't been some serious screw-ups, knowing how regional Scouting management works.
Keep the reporting to that to the screw-ups and not the agendas.
Scouting councils have logged across at least 34,000 acres -- a figure that vastly undercounts the actual number of harvests conducted and acreage cut, as forestry records nationwide are incomplete or nonexistent.
More than 100 Scouting councils have conducted timber harvests -- one-third of all Boy Scout councils nationwide.
OK, they logged. If the press is upset because digging up nationwide figures is hard because BSA hasn't kept good records then that is bad. The fact that 1/3rd of the councils logged is not bad.
=============
At least 26 councils have logged in areas with or near protected wildlife habitat at least 53 times, a number also underrepresented.
Near protected wildlife. That's almost serious and just about worth mentioning.
===============
Councils have conducted at least 60 clearcuts and 35 salvage harvests -- logging that some scholars and ecologists say can hurt the environment and primarily aims to make money.
35 Salvage Logging events can be a great way to clean up after insect/disease and fire say some scholars and fire ecologists. This would be the portion of scholars and fire ecologists that understand that in western forests it is common for three events to each one of these cycles.
1) Insect or disease,
2) First fire,
3) Second Fire.
The question not addressed here was how was the slash generated from the logging dealt with? That is where logging can be a real asset or create even worse problems.
==============
Several councils submitted logging plans with inaccurate and incomplete information, and in some cases, disregarded rules or conditions established to protect wildlife, streams or other resources.
So what happened? Were they made to correct these and the system worked?
===============
In some cases nationwide, Scout logging and land deals have involved cozy relationships in which Scouting councils have conducted business with current or former Scouting volunteers, their private companies, employers or in one case, a state regulator.
The State Regulator sounds criminal. The other cozy relationships could be a problem within Scouting by-laws but that would be their option. Where this is a real problems is did BSA get shorted? By either cash loss or poor representation.
+++++++++++++++++++
A good portion of this opening barrage is just complaining by those that don't want any logging at all. Anywhere.
I don't doubt that there haven't been some serious screw-ups, knowing how regional Scouting management works.
Keep the reporting to that to the screw-ups and not the agendas.
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Now that's aproblem
"Local and regional executives can earn annual compensation of $100,000 to $300,000 per year. At the national level, Scouting executives make even more."
============
In a world where at the grass roots everyone is a volunteer I can't see paying over $50,000 to anyone. TOUGH.
At the Regional level those guys were always trying to suck up from any donation made to local councils.
"Local and regional executives can earn annual compensation of $100,000 to $300,000 per year. At the national level, Scouting executives make even more."
============
In a world where at the grass roots everyone is a volunteer I can't see paying over $50,000 to anyone. TOUGH.
At the Regional level those guys were always trying to suck up from any donation made to local councils.
treejunkie13
ArboristSite Operative
Guess I was always under the impression that salvage logging was a good thing. Waste not want not! I do admit that I may be soft, but my eyes moisten when I come across blow-down that can't be touched. Maybe I'm a true environmentalist.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
You can tell an agenda by
The McCaleb Ranch discussion directly after the Philmont Ranch doesn't distinguish between the two.
It makes it appear as if the Nations largest scout property was being logged against the donors wishes.
Philmont was donated by an oil man who wanted Philmont to continue to be a working cattle ranch etc.
===========
"Recent Scout salvage harvests have occurred in Georgia, California, New York, Montana and Pennsylvania after tornadoes, fires, ice storms and insect infestations. After several fires, the Scouts' National Council conducted from 1999 through 2004 by far the largest of Scout salvage harvests reviewed -- in all, more than 3,400 acres -- at the nation's premier Scouting camp, the Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico.
Some critics say the 2002 salvage at the McCaleb Ranch, (it would have been nice to say IN OREGON), never should have happened.
"The old woman who donated that property to the Scouts had entered into an agreement with the state to protect it from logging," said Keene, senior forester for the Institute for Wildlife Protection."
The McCaleb Ranch discussion directly after the Philmont Ranch doesn't distinguish between the two.
It makes it appear as if the Nations largest scout property was being logged against the donors wishes.
Philmont was donated by an oil man who wanted Philmont to continue to be a working cattle ranch etc.
===========
"Recent Scout salvage harvests have occurred in Georgia, California, New York, Montana and Pennsylvania after tornadoes, fires, ice storms and insect infestations. After several fires, the Scouts' National Council conducted from 1999 through 2004 by far the largest of Scout salvage harvests reviewed -- in all, more than 3,400 acres -- at the nation's premier Scouting camp, the Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico.
Some critics say the 2002 salvage at the McCaleb Ranch, (it would have been nice to say IN OREGON), never should have happened.
"The old woman who donated that property to the Scouts had entered into an agreement with the state to protect it from logging," said Keene, senior forester for the Institute for Wildlife Protection."
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I'm more disgusted with the Girl Scouts. They are now taking orders for their cookies--right when 99% of the population is trying to lose a few pounds. The cookies will arrive in March, when we (hope) to have lost a few pounds and then will have to sample and resample what we have bought. Good thing there aren't many cookies in the boxes.
If people want to find something wrong on a timber sale, they will. It just depends how much time they have to spend looking. Most of us don't have that much time.
If people want to find something wrong on a timber sale, they will. It just depends how much time they have to spend looking. Most of us don't have that much time.
Burvol
Bullbuck
I hope the coconut cookies are still available this spring, I heard they were cutting back due to lack of funds, and making some cheaper options this year
It's pretty hard to resist those cookies, especially when there's a few cute 10 year olds with big eyes asking you to buy some. Lindsey always caves in, then tells me we need our own boxes, so I buy one too. I never have asked them what they do with the money, but hopefully it's used wisely. If we get fat on our dollar to them, I hope it's a good cause. I remeber my older sister used to sell them, and my Dad always forked out like 50 bucks worth and my mom would try to hide them.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Salmon El Ahhhh
I heard they went with peanut butter cookies.
All you can eat.
I heard they went with peanut butter cookies.
All you can eat.
I hope the coconut cookies are still available this spring, I heard they were cutting back due to lack of funds, and making some cheaper options this year
It's pretty hard to resist those cookies, especially when there's a few cute 10 year olds with big eyes asking you to buy some. Lindsey always caves in, then tells me we need our own boxes, so I buy one too. I never have asked them what they do with the money, but hopefully it's used wisely. If we get fat on our dollar to them, I hope it's a good cause. I remeber my older sister used to sell them, and my Dad always forked out like 50 bucks worth and my mom would try to hide them.
Do you mean the decadent Samoas? They were called a more politically correct name last year but went back to the original name. They are deadly good. Coconut, caramel and chocolate. So I didn't order them. I went with the lemon ones. Which are probably just as bad, so I'll share them.
Maybe Boy Scouts could sell knives or jerky to raise money?
Do you mean the decadent Samoas? They were called a more politically correct name last year but went back to the original name. They are deadly good. Coconut, caramel and chocolate. So I didn't order them. I went with the lemon ones. Which are probably just as bad, so I'll share them.
Maybe Boy Scouts could sell knives or jerky to raise money?
Bring all the cookies to the GTG. They'll be put to good use.
lh3
ArboristSite Member
I am an Eagle Scout. I have trekked Philmont Scout Ranch. 7 days in the back country. Anyone who has been there knows that place would be devestated by a wildfire because of all the brush and dead wood. That place needs some "cleanup." It is one of the most beautiful places i've been to and needs to be managed responsibly.
