Logging regulation info needed for school project

[sILlogger]

I'm giving a debate in a few days as to whether we should continue to log our old growth. and my thought is, "how can we continue to do something that we aren't doing now?" so my question is who out there that logs has some sort of regulation that keeps them from cutting old growth or larger trees?

if i remember right slowp can't cut anything over 18" on there sales? slowp what district are you in and is the management plan online?

I'm really wanting to burn the tree huggin' hippies butts on this one so any help would be great!

 

[forestryworks]

everybody wants forest products, but no one wants to see any logging going on... go figure

hope someone responds with what you need

 

[sILlogger]

everybody wants forest products, but no one wants to see any logging going on... go figure

hope someone responds with what you need

yup..they don't like plantations, because they aren't "forests" but they don't like to see natural forest get cut either

 

[hammerlogging]

Most of it is sentimental vs. science. The rest is the unique habitat stuff. Down to 3% left, sorry folks, but they can have it, how about a trade-- N.Z. made a deal with their environmental community, something about (almost) no more logging of native forests in exchange for hands off the plantation industry. Interesting deal.

No regs in the SE to speak of, unless deemed so by an individual management plan, whether oublic or private land.

I bet you'll get the info you need from Cali. folks. Good luck.

 

[Burvol]

Out West (OR & WA), Old growth is all gone (Big stands of it)...damn near. What we have left is Bastard growth, the trees the fags worship and call ancient around here. Infact, I cut one of those puppies last week, a six foot Noble Fir. Hell, it would have been 8ft, but I came up out of the root swell. I'll post it on here as soon as I get the pictures.
Back to what you were saying, most people don't realize a good portion of those big trees are total grapewood, around here anyways. The beetles, root rot, bud worm, etc. have all played havoc on our big stands. Yes, there are some sound hammers left, but not in vast concentrations by no means. I enjoy cutting 4 to 5 footers when they are in my strip, but they are usually ripe, or partially rotten....totally ready to harvest. The problem is the turn around time is so slow to get a whole stand of that stuff growing naturally, it takes a long time with prime conditions. The big, limby trees are great for wildlife, viewing and worship (We call those big leave trees WORSHIP TREES). The tall, more slick hammers are what rich people have in their homes for beams, ski lodges, ect. You can ask any amount you want for trees like that, marketed individually. I've heard of those puppies (Doug Fir) going for 5-10k MBF commonly.

 

[slowp]

The Western Forests of Washington, Orygun, and Northern CA are managed according to the Northwest Forest Plan--Clinton's plan from 1990, I believe.
Old Growth could be logged if all the surveys required turned up negative, creeks buffered, somehow got classified as Matrix land, and lastly, if it made it through the lawsuit. However, we now have so much second growth that has less defect, and the mills are now geared down for smaller wood, the attitude, and I have it too, is why bother? Around here we pretty much got the easy old growth. I'd like to see us be able to remove the dying trees and sell them though. Right now they are only cut if a hazard and usually sold for firewood. Much of this forest was burned in the early 1900s so we have fairly young stands.

The land base is made up into different categories. Matrix is SUPPOSED to be for timber harvest, but that is no longer so. Late Seral Reserves are the areas with old growth characteristics which, if managed, must be done so to enhance that old growth character. We are allowed to commercial thin in LSRs if it makes the trees grow faster and reach the Late Seral Stage quicker.
Then it would be hands off--not even firewood unless it is across a road. There are Riparian Reserves, which seem to be getting wider, adaptave management areas and so on. All of this requires time and budget consuming surveys for Spotted Owls, rare snails and slugs (mollusks), rare plants, wet areas, winter range, eagles, etc. (too many to list here). If none are found, or it can be mitigated, timber harvest may occur.

I believe it takes three months to do a spotted owl survey. Three hootings and during a certain time of the year. Mollusk surveys can only be done when it is damp and conditions are right, and plant surveys usually have to be done during spring or early summer. That is why it takes so long to put up a stick of wood. Try looking up the Northwest Forest Plan. It gets pretty specific.

Good luck. :deadhorse:

 

[forestryworks]

isn't the spotted owl gonna die whether we log or not?

 

[sILlogger]

Out West (OR & WA), Old growth is all gone (Big stands of it)...damn near. What we have left is Bastard growth, the trees the fags worship and call ancient around here. Infact, I cut one of those puppies last week, a six foot Noble Fir. Hell, it would have been 8ft, but I came up out of the root swell. I'll post it on here as soon as I get the pictures.
Back to what you were saying, most people don't realize a good portion of those big trees are total grapewood, around here anyways. The beetles, root rot, bud worm, etc. have all played havoc on our big stands. Yes, there are some sound hammers left, but not in vast concentrations by no means. I enjoy cutting 4 to 5 footers when they are in my strip, but they are usually ripe, or partially rotten....totally ready to harvest. The problem is the turn around time is so slow to get a whole stand of that stuff growing naturally, it takes a long time with prime conditions. The big, limby trees are great for wildlife, viewing and worship (We call those big leave trees WORSHIP TREES). The tall, more slick hammers are what rich people have in their homes for beams, ski lodges, ect. You can ask any amount you want for trees like that, marketed individually. I've heard of those puppies (Doug Fir) going for 5-10k MBF commonly.

so are there any regulations in your area saying that trees over a certain size cannot be cut? or are there just wilderness areas of old growth that are protected?

 

[sILlogger]

The Western Forests of Washington, Orygun, and Northern CA are managed according to the Northwest Forest Plan--Clinton's plan from 1990, I believe.
Old Growth could be logged if all the surveys required turned up negative, creeks buffered, somehow got classified as Matrix land, and lastly, if it made it through the lawsuit. However, we now have so much second growth that has less defect, and the mills are now geared down for smaller wood, the attitude, and I have it too, is why bother? Around here we pretty much got the easy old growth. I'd like to see us be able to remove the dying trees and sell them though. Right now they are only cut if a hazard and usually sold for firewood. Much of this forest was burned in the early 1900s so we have fairly young stands.

The land base is made up into different categories. Matrix is SUPPOSED to be for timber harvest, but that is no longer so. Late Seral Reserves are the areas with old growth characteristics which, if managed, must be done so to enhance that old growth character. We are allowed to commercial thin in LSRs if it makes the trees grow faster and reach the Late Seral Stage quicker.
Then it would be hands off--not even firewood unless it is across a road. There are Riparian Reserves, which seem to be getting wider, adaptave management areas and so on. All of this requires time and budget consuming surveys for Spotted Owls, rare snails and slugs (mollusks), rare plants, wet areas, winter range, eagles, etc. (too many to list here). If none are found, or it can be mitigated, timber harvest may occur.

I believe it takes three months to do a spotted owl survey. Three hootings and during a certain time of the year. Mollusk surveys can only be done when it is damp and conditions are right, and plant surveys usually have to be done during spring or early summer. That is why it takes so long to put up a stick of wood. Try looking up the Northwest Forest Plan. It gets pretty specific.

Good luck. :deadhorse:

Thank you. i'm sure these are headaches that you deal with every day and that you get tired of

 

[slowp]

Here's a starting point. http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/nwfp.htm

Be advised that one of the scientists on the committee quit during the process. He stated, and it has turned out to be true, that the plan was impossible to implement--too many people had their hand in it.

 

[sILlogger]

slowp, where there some of your sales that they couldn't cut anything over 18"?

 

[slowp]

No, that hasn't happened here, yet. The enviros are pushing for a diameter cap. We had an incident where large old growth was cut for a helicopter landing and was planned to be included timber, the wildlife guy raised a stink so now if any are cut, they are left. So stupid, but we have to do it. Here's one that isn't too big, and it was left in the unit.

That tree is an example of a fire survivor. They are scattered about in the area. It had a shaky, dead top and was not safe to work around. I'm thinking the elevation is near 3000 feet so it is not our best growing site.

Another reason to leave them in the unit is that yarder size has decreased also and they can't yard the big ones in at the optimum log length.

Now, are you classifying old growth by age, as it should be? Or are you using size, as I think the enviro groups want to do?

 

[sILlogger]

ahhh ha!! that is where i plan to burn them!!! just because a tree is big doesn't mean it is old. i classify by age and growth characteristics. i thought u were saying that there were some sales tha the largest trees were left and the ones around them cut

 

[slowp]

ahhh ha!! that is where i plan to burn them!!! just because a tree is big doesn't mean it is old. i classify by age and growth characteristics. i thought u were saying that there were some sales tha the largest trees were left and the ones around them cut

Those old fire survivors are only cut if they are a danger to be worked around, or there is no way to get around them when building a road or landing.
I believe there are some very large trees in the Oregon coast range that are around 100 years old. Good site, and quick growth.

Contrary to what some of the people believe, we don't take the big trees when thinning either. We try to meet a basal area, which the silviculturist determines. I can't explain that because I'm on the operations end. But the latest fad, which I do not agree with, but must implement, is designation by description. We have the timber sale purchaser mark the stand according to what we describe in the contract. They will have something like this, Mark all smaller diameter trees at a spacing of 12 feet from the largest tree. Diameter is taken at 4 inches above ground. The minimum diameter is 8 inches...(example)

Notice, no consideration is given for the condition of the tree. The leave tree only needs to alive, and have the largest stump diameter. So, we get some junky trees left. But this leads to a "diverse stand". It is also supposed to prevent high grading, which the eviro group seemed to think the loggers and I were able to do. I haven't figured out that one yet and lost my temper about it when it was brought up. It was quite the insult.

Then additional timber gets cut for skid trails, skyline corridors, roads and landings. That's how it goes.

 

[sILlogger]

Those old fire survivors are only cut if they are a danger to be worked around, or there is no way to get around them when building a road or landing.
I believe there are some very large trees in the Oregon coast range that are around 100 years old. Good site, and quick growth.

Contrary to what some of the people believe, we don't take the big trees when thinning either. We try to meet a basal area, which the silviculturist determines. I can't explain that because I'm on the operations end. But the latest fad, which I do not agree with, but must implement, is designation by description. We have the timber sale purchaser mark the stand according to what we describe in the contract. They will have something like this, Mark all smaller diameter trees at a spacing of 12 feet from the largest tree. Diameter is taken at 4 inches above ground. The minimum diameter is 8 inches...(example)

Notice, no consideration is given for the condition of the tree. The leave tree only needs to alive, and have the largest stump diameter. So, we get some junky trees left. But this leads to a "diverse stand". It is also supposed to prevent high grading, which the eviro group seemed to think the loggers and I were able to do. I haven't figured out that one yet and lost my temper about it when it was brought up. It was quite the insult.

Then additional timber gets cut for skid trails, skyline corridors, roads and landings. That's how it goes.

so is there an actual definition of "old growth" for your area. or what is considered old growth in your area? because to me there is no good way to define it.

 

[redprospector]

In the Lincoln National Forest we have a 24" cap. Very little gets marked to cut anywhere near the cap. They cried about "old growth" here, and there is no real old growth left. Not cutting anything over 24" dbh is the equivalent to a farmer not harvesting his crop when it's ready. I don't think we should cut every one of the bigger trees, but cutting none of them is asinine.

Andy

 

[forestryworks]

more and more we're gonna have to convert forests to tree farms and plantations... overcrowding kinda forces the industry in that direction does it not?

 

[sILlogger]

more and more we're gonna have to convert forests to tree farms and plantations... overcrowding kinda forces the industry in that direction does it not?

I don't think we have or will every really face a timber shortage....i think we will face an "available timber" shortage (timber that can actually be cut)

 

[hammerlogging]

Not to get too off topic as academic needs of SiLogger must be addressed, but a figure i was taught in school was that under intensive management practices, all forest product needs of the U.S. could be supplied in an area the size of Arkansas-- which is not much. Granted, where would we get our walnut dashboards and violin wood. Plus, I cut native hardwoods, and love big timber. But, got to put the facts straight too.

You're on to a good point, is it age or diameter. Our typical diameter limit cuts are asinine as far as timber mgmt goes- cause often they're even aged stands and we're just leaving supressed trees.

 

[sILlogger]

Not to get too off topic as academic needs of SiLogger must be addressed, but a figure i was taught in school was that under intensive management practices, all forest product needs of the U.S. could be supplied in an area the size of Arkansas-- which is not much. Granted, where would we get our walnut dashboards and violin wood. Plus, I cut native hardwoods, and love big timber. But, got to put the facts straight too.

You're on to a good point, is it age or diameter. Our typical diameter limit cuts are asinine as far as timber mgmt goes- cause often they're even aged stands and we're just leaving supressed trees.

The worlds timber supply could be met on 5% or the total land cover (so the stats say)