Hydraulic driven fan eh? Why not just a belt? Belts are cheap... Even cheaper is no moving parts at all. I dont think its rocket science, to get moisture content down you need air circulation and keep the rain off it. The cover-all and PVC hutch is cheap and sounds effective compared to most reccomendations I've read. For what its worth, I'd start there for sake of minimal investment and more up as necessary. One thing to consider though is ground moisture. If you use a PVC hutch try to pick an area that has low gound moisture, i.e. gravel/stone surface as apposed to soil/grass. If you have concrete or blacktop that might be ideal.
Looking at ways to dry firewood faster and cheaper
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Hydraulic driven fan eh? Why not just a belt? Belts are cheap... Even cheaper is no moving parts at all. I dont think its rocket science, to get moisture content down you need air circulation and keep the rain off it. The cover-all and PVC hutch is cheap and sounds effective compared to most reccomendations I've read. For what its worth, I'd start there for sake of minimal investment and more up as necessary. One thing to consider though is ground moisture. If you use a PVC hutch try to pick an area that has low gound moisture, i.e. gravel/stone surface as apposed to soil/grass. If you have concrete or blacktop that might be ideal.
The average firewood placed in a kiln is not a drying situation but a heat treat bug killer system. I do not remember the exact # but something along the lines of raising the internal temp of the splits to apx 160 deg for x # of hours. Yes, this aids in drying but sure doesn't get it down to 20% or less in the kiln in the overall scheme of things. Unless the firewood is left there for a considerably longer time at the elevated temperature. This is getting as bad as the wording of "seasoned vs drying" or ford /chevy/ dodge. For drying purposes a couple of large capacity dehumidfiers in a sealed container with the firewood just might get there faster and less cost than heating( disregarding the availabilty of scraps to fire a heating appliance) And a by product of a dehumidifier is heat although not enough to reach kiln temps. Most of these units will not work at ambient temps below 40 deg F.
Borz
New Member
This thread is very interesting. I have been selling oak firewood in northeast Florida this winter, and have recently run out. I stacked two full cord together 8'x8'x4', stacked on pallets and wrapped up in a tarp on all sides except the bottom. I wrapped up a 3 foot diameter barn fan on one side and left a small corner open at the opposite side. The greenest wood is on the end opposite the fan, and the adjacent Side to the fan. It is 69° here with 67% relative humidity. I plan on running the fan for about 4-6 hours every day this week. The greenest would is very wet water Oak that was cut down and split up yesterday. I imagine this firewood will dry up considerably in one week despite the relatively high humidity/moderate temperature. I just don't know how much more I good the fan will do after the initial moisture evaporates. I will advise how things go using rudimentary techniques to test the firewood… A.k.a. burning it in my fireplace.
reddogrunner
ArboristSite Operative
I stored about 1 cord in log length in an old steel stock trailer for a summer. not on purpose, but just could not get to it. When I removed the wood and cut it up, the wood was VERY dry. The steel was painted a dark brown, the roof was good and it had the open slats of the stock trailer. It got me thinking about buying a large shipping container, cutting in directional venting and placing in full sun. I bet it would dry awfully quick in full soon.
Possibly but a bunch depends on the type of Wood and atmospheric conditions in your area. White Oak is not known for rapidly giving up moisture content. On the other end of the scale something like Silver maple would be good to, maybe, by the end of summer. Cross section of splits will also have an effect on time to dry as well.
Since the start of this thread, I have given this a lot of thought. (not really). Anyways as ideals do, I just had one pop in my head. These type ideals are rarely useful, but fun to discuss. My main concerns for any drying process would be cost. With that said making the most of what I already have would be a necessity. If I took my current metal building, 24x24 I think, and painted it black, the temps would almost certainly hit 130f-135f degrees in full sun Maybe even a little more. I could add a couple of those whirly roof vent to the top to get air flowing out of the building and a couple of vents at the bottom to let fresh air in. Stack the wood on pallets so it wasnt touching the ground where the air could get under it. That should dry the wood pretty quick. It wouldnt be enough to kill off the bugs, but I would only have to raise the inside temps by about 30f-40f degrees to make that happen. Ideal number 2. Take a waterless furnace and connect the ductwork to the vents on the bottom of the shed and let the fan blow in the hot dry air. If you let the sun bring the building temp up before starting the furnace, it shouldnt take to much of a fire to get the temps up the remaining few degrees to kill the bugs. As ideals come and go, I had another one while typing. Number 3. I have seen a 8x16 solar water heater reach 180*temps in full sun. Just build the solar heater and run tubes under your pallets of wood like for a radiant floor heating system. Natural convection would circulate the hot water so it wouldnt take any electricity or you wouldnt need to tend a fire in a stove. I might ought to end here, I am about to have another brain fart and that could be hazardous.
Interesting.
Listing the problem, lets call them challenges, is lowering the moisture content of firewood more quickly. That really isn't the problem, opps, challenge however.
The challenge becomes, if your selling firewood, is to to do a lot of it, affordably, at a cost people will be willing to pay for.
My experience is everyone expects it, but few are really willing to pay an additional amount for it. It is simply expected. What is unexpected is to actually get good seasoned wood. Most actually expect crap firewood, because that is typically what they get delivered...which is why they don't want to pay more because they don't expect to actually get it. The wheel re-invented.
Most sellers cut and split in the summer and sell it the fall, if your a lucky buyer, or process it straight into the delivery truck the day of delivery. Lets call that "Popeye wood", "it is what it is!" ( A variation of "I am what I am!")
If your doing it for yourself you may find by Christmas your anywhere from one week to three years a head.
I built wood racks and that worked very well if left to season for a year.
There were challenges with that too. Covering large groups proved hit and miss, as it funneled water where there were punctures in the tarps. Winter access was terrible. Individual covers were more work, but worked much better last year. With my changed approach, using pallets this summer, individual covers have been even more work this year, but seems to be worth it.
The rub with the racks was stacking. The rub with pallets is much less firewood per pallet, or per square foot of footprint. If you are talking inside seasoning or storage, that added footprint is going to be a challenge. If you go loose thrown you will have to load it some how, scoop it up, stack in a bucket if it is loose thrown on top of pallets, or even if it is all ready stacked. Moving it adds up to extra handling.
It is raining pretty good out right now. Half the pallets are covered, half are not. I cut my old tarps into six foot squares, folded the corners in 16" and stitched them so I could get my arm through to feed a cord, or baling twine, through each corner. When in place they look a bit like mushrooms, but seem to be working. So I bought some more new tarps and cut them up too. The free material from the lumber yard did not sew well at all with its flat threaded, slippery weave.
I still would like a pole barn or fabric shelter. Not for wood seasoning however, but to process wood in, out of the weather. I'm going with sun, wind, and individual covers for seasoning. Half my clients stack outside uncovered anyway. Delivery truck and small processor will be first on the list as they will save time and work. Who else selling wood really seasons anyway?
One option: I may try with five cord for myself, is cutting 8" length rounds and possibly splitting two at a time. The thought being shorter splits may equal quicker drying. And also, with the palletizing, I might get a cord of 8" splits on three pallets, as opposed to 16" splits on four pallets. Maybe that will work against quicker drying if there is less air space. It will not stack for sure. However if I deliver with forklift/pallets it is a possibility.
Listing the problem, lets call them challenges, is lowering the moisture content of firewood more quickly. That really isn't the problem, opps, challenge however.
The challenge becomes, if your selling firewood, is to to do a lot of it, affordably, at a cost people will be willing to pay for.
My experience is everyone expects it, but few are really willing to pay an additional amount for it. It is simply expected. What is unexpected is to actually get good seasoned wood. Most actually expect crap firewood, because that is typically what they get delivered...which is why they don't want to pay more because they don't expect to actually get it. The wheel re-invented.
Most sellers cut and split in the summer and sell it the fall, if your a lucky buyer, or process it straight into the delivery truck the day of delivery. Lets call that "Popeye wood", "it is what it is!" ( A variation of "I am what I am!")
If your doing it for yourself you may find by Christmas your anywhere from one week to three years a head.
I built wood racks and that worked very well if left to season for a year.
There were challenges with that too. Covering large groups proved hit and miss, as it funneled water where there were punctures in the tarps. Winter access was terrible. Individual covers were more work, but worked much better last year. With my changed approach, using pallets this summer, individual covers have been even more work this year, but seems to be worth it.
The rub with the racks was stacking. The rub with pallets is much less firewood per pallet, or per square foot of footprint. If you are talking inside seasoning or storage, that added footprint is going to be a challenge. If you go loose thrown you will have to load it some how, scoop it up, stack in a bucket if it is loose thrown on top of pallets, or even if it is all ready stacked. Moving it adds up to extra handling.
It is raining pretty good out right now. Half the pallets are covered, half are not. I cut my old tarps into six foot squares, folded the corners in 16" and stitched them so I could get my arm through to feed a cord, or baling twine, through each corner. When in place they look a bit like mushrooms, but seem to be working. So I bought some more new tarps and cut them up too. The free material from the lumber yard did not sew well at all with its flat threaded, slippery weave.
I still would like a pole barn or fabric shelter. Not for wood seasoning however, but to process wood in, out of the weather. I'm going with sun, wind, and individual covers for seasoning. Half my clients stack outside uncovered anyway. Delivery truck and small processor will be first on the list as they will save time and work. Who else selling wood really seasons anyway?
One option: I may try with five cord for myself, is cutting 8" length rounds and possibly splitting two at a time. The thought being shorter splits may equal quicker drying. And also, with the palletizing, I might get a cord of 8" splits on three pallets, as opposed to 16" splits on four pallets. Maybe that will work against quicker drying if there is less air space. It will not stack for sure. However if I deliver with forklift/pallets it is a possibility.
why are you guys so concerned with covering wood with tarps? it seasons faster if you let it get rained on. the moisture attaches to a small amount of the sap and pulls it out as it evaporates. just like licking your lips 100 times a day. the result? dry lips. same concept with firewood. some guys even spray water on their wood in the summer to season it faster. do a search its been discussed. many times.
T. Mainus
ArboristSite Operative
Storage sheds are our main business. That keeps us busy from April to January 1st. All of our firewood gets processed from Jan. 1st until April 1st. Then it all gets sold in the fall. I have never had anyone complain about wood not being seasoned, not even the oak. We stack about 15 cord of oak a year in face cord racks that sit outside but are under a lean-to roof. This is our "premium" wood. Everything else stays in piles from the elevator. We are trying to buy a forklift/telehandler for the storage sheds and then use it for firewood as well. If that works out we are going to have some steel racks made that we can move with the forks on the machine. All wood gets thrown in the bucket by hand and then dumped into our dump trailer for delivery. We do about 30-50 cord a year depending on how much we get split. 
I dont cover mine with tarps. It lays in a pile, in the weather, until I get around to stacking it under one of those prefabbed metal carports. Just a cover as the sides are open. I can fit about 8 cord inside that shed. I am used to dry wood for my stove, but have plenty of experience burning green and semi dry wood. I dont sell wood so its not hard for me to keep dry wood for my own stove. Wood buyers want dry wood for some of the same reasons I like it. It just burns better, is easier to start a fire and it doesnt creosote up my flue. Whether or not people are willing to pay a premium for dry wood can be debated all day long. If I was selling a 100 cord a year, I think it might be hard to get that much wood dry in one season. It would just depend on the market and how much I was willing to invest in the proper resources to dry the wood. Lots of methods have been discussed as to proper stacking with the goal of having dried wood. A kiln would probably be the best way to get it dry in a short period of time, but who wants to take profits and invest in a $50,000 oven just to dry wood. I would have to sell a lot more than a 100 cords a year to even consider it. Looking for the next best way is what this thread is about, at least thats what I thought was the goal. Anyways, for economics, what ever method is used, it has to be cheap for the average firewood producer on this site. I am of the nature if I was selling wood and taking the time to dry it properly, a customer would have to pay my price or keep walking. geen wood goes for about $65 a rick, which is about 1/3 cord normally. Thats about $195 per cord. Keeping 100 cord worth of wood in storage for one year so it can season, ties up a lot of money. One has to decide just how much its worth to them to sell dry wood and price accordingly.
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Having just put two of those whirlybird type vents in the shed roof i can attest to how much air those things either suck through or allow to pass through. I therefore I'd say the tunnellhouse on a slope sounds like a great way to get airflow over the splits.
The 20' containers are getting cheaper these days too. Vents down low at one end and a whirlybird vent up high at the other end might make for a reasonable drying room.
Yes, Sandhill, shorter splits do dry faster assuming your market will accept them.
Have mentioned this before but seeing as we are talking about cheap ways to hasten the drying, immersing the green firewood in a river for a day or three before setting it up to dry makes a big difference. More handling though.
The 20' containers are getting cheaper these days too. Vents down low at one end and a whirlybird vent up high at the other end might make for a reasonable drying room.
Yes, Sandhill, shorter splits do dry faster assuming your market will accept them.
Have mentioned this before but seeing as we are talking about cheap ways to hasten the drying, immersing the green firewood in a river for a day or three before setting it up to dry makes a big difference. More handling though.
Really???
Really???
Not buying either one.
Edit: When I say I cover with tarps, I should clarify, I cover just the top of the pile to shed rain and snow, yet allow air flow through the pile.
Actually, I think if you could dunk the wood in a pond for a while, it would dry faster once split and stacked. Might take more than a few days tho. I read something about about doing that for building log cabins, but dont remember all I read.
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Me neither, at first. Was an old-timer who told me that and I thought he was pulling my leg. But I had to try it and was quite surprised. Only thing I can think of is the water helps dilute the sap so that it not only can't harden on the ends which tends to seal the fibres against moisture loss, but the diluted sap has a much lower boil temperature or can be pulled to the end via the pressure/moisture gradient far easier than sap.
Might be some other reason why entirely, but I know it works.
some googling rendered this:
"Immersion in running water quickly removes sap and then the wood is air dried. "...it reduces the elasticity and durability of the wood and also makes it brittle."[3]"
Riley, J. W.. A manual of carpentry and joinery,. London: Macmillan and co., limited;, 1905. 8. Print.
and this:
http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Carpentry-Principles/451-Water-Seasoning.html
"On account of the time required to season timber the natural way, various methods have been tried to effect the same purpose in a shorter time. One of the best of these is to immerse the timber in water as soon as it is cut down, and after it has remained about a fortnight in water, but not more, to take it out, and dry it in an airy situation."
Op- you are on the right track with your shed- if you want add some solar heat - forget the hot water - just due solar hot air- cheaper- if you want add debugging add that furnace to the mix- blowers could be solar powered as well- fueled by scraps uglies and spliter leavings- stay with the 16" long but keep splits about 3-4" in cross section- buyers arn't going to be to crazy about 8" long pieces. - its all about air movement to carry away the evaporating moisture.
Tarps on stacks - yes to keep rain/snow off put pallet sections under tarps on top of stack- again allows for air movement. best to peak in middle so any condensation runs off to out side edges.
Tarps on stacks - yes to keep rain/snow off put pallet sections under tarps on top of stack- again allows for air movement. best to peak in middle so any condensation runs off to out side edges.
reddogrunner
ArboristSite Operative
I store mine in bins or baskets out in the full sun and wind. Uncovered. It sees to season well in 1 year, some woods needing more time like Hickory and Oak, which get 2 years unless customer request it at 1 year.
I think immersion in water would be impractical for most folks. While the method is used mostly to prevent warping and checking for lumber, I think it would have little value to someone making firewood. Not saying it does or doesnt work, just that I dont have a large pond to store my wood in. For firewood, air drying and time are really all one can afford to do. If you sale wood in areas with diseases, or where the wood has to be heated to a certain temp to kill those diseases, some sort of kiln would have to be ultilized. At that point it becomes a numbers game. How much wood can you dry in a given time and at what cost. Solar kiln would seem to be the cheapest method, but certainly not as fast as some method that can provide more heat at a faster rate. Burning wood to dry wood just seems counter productive to me. While I have lots of junk splits I doubt I have enough waste to use wood as a heat source for drying. Electricity or gas would cost to much to allow for much profit saleing the dried wood. Stacking somewhere under a open shed with good air flow would probably be the most economical method, but once dry, the wood would still need to run some sort of heated kiln to kill off diseases.
I actually think my ideal of using a solar kiln and supplementing using wood heat to raise the temps for disease control might be the cheapest method. Cant really call it my ideal as I am sure it has already been tried. I dont think you could just pack the wood inside a shed and expect the solar kiln to work as efficiently as it would if the wood was dumped in baskets and placed inside with spaceing. I would probably want to use the baskets anyway just to make the putting in and taking out of the wood easier to handle. I have seen all kinds of solar heaters that are cheap to make and operate that people are using to heat their homes. Most have little fans for air movement, with air temps reaching 140*f. Should be enough heat to dry wood. I know I can stack some green wood next to my wood stove and it will dry out pretty fast.
I actually think my ideal of using a solar kiln and supplementing using wood heat to raise the temps for disease control might be the cheapest method. Cant really call it my ideal as I am sure it has already been tried. I dont think you could just pack the wood inside a shed and expect the solar kiln to work as efficiently as it would if the wood was dumped in baskets and placed inside with spaceing. I would probably want to use the baskets anyway just to make the putting in and taking out of the wood easier to handle. I have seen all kinds of solar heaters that are cheap to make and operate that people are using to heat their homes. Most have little fans for air movement, with air temps reaching 140*f. Should be enough heat to dry wood. I know I can stack some green wood next to my wood stove and it will dry out pretty fast.
Jason 6586:
Back to your situation.
Sliding door track is quite expensive.
You could build some weather protection panels from 2" x 4" on edge, with plywood triangles on the inside corners to square them up, and cover with reinforced plastic held on with lath strips on the face edge and #6 nails. You could use #6 duplex (double headed) but then if stacking the panels for summer you might snag the plastic more. You can do 16' panels with a divider, or nailer at 8', then use plywood triangles there as well, just harder to handle. You can also build in several hinged plywood passage doors if you want to in that length, which can double for ventilation. The panels could be removable for loading/unloading. Wedge a 2" x 4" or 4" x 4" upright every 16' to nail to and support the panels if need be. You may want to use a piece of treated nailed to the concrete for these posts to nail to. (To do that drill a 1/4" hole in the plate and into the concrete. Nail, using two 16 penny nails in the hole. Drive one further than the other, bending the longer one over, say a half inch. This gives you something to get a hold of if you want to pull it out at a later date. Pulling both nails together will spaul the concrete.) Maybe you could set the panels on blocks and leave an air gap at the bottom, and add some turbines on the roof. Leave the plastic long to cover the bottom edge. (snow?) Use nails to pin it up, poking thru the plastic as in sewing. Important to use reinforced plastic. Other plastic will not hold up very good to wind, and will break down (UV) into small pieces and be a huge mess in a year or two.
It is something you could try just to see if the idea of enclosing works before putting a lot of money in a hunch. The you can watch for condensation on the roof panels to judge degree ventilation. Look around large construction sites and you will see this type of panel for temporary windows, building access for equipment, brick layers, scaffolding, etc. I used to do this type of weather protection a lot on job sites when needed.
ChoppyChoppy
Tree Freak
I've got to ask, who the heck is burning a fireplace when it's nearly 70* outside?! FWIW, it's almost -15* here, it's not even 70* in my house!
ambience, grilling, and their blood down there isn't much thicker than water@70 deg.
