Looking to expand into fertilization...

[Ed Roland]

Northern Tool has a 55 gallon spray skid sprayer for $1700. 350 psi w/ 150' hose. This could be a good starter unit.

 

[underwor]

I did not say that nothing was needed. I just agree that NPK are rarely needed. More often as Woodweasel said, it is a micronutrient issue, and usually this is due to a soil imbalance due to pH, salinity, or other issues. PHC works on the basis of balancing the whole system, not just reacting after the fact. Few medical doctors suggest we wait until the disorder is a full blown problem before suggesting treatments. Also, they do not say that we need to take a multivitamin containing every known nutrient necessary for survival of the species on a regular basis to ensure good health and long life.

As JPS said, often too much of a good thing is more beneficial for the disorder than it is for the tree. We are only saying that you should concentrate more on correcting and preventing the problem than on slowing it short term, often initiating a repeat visit for the same problem, or response if the homeowner things greener, thicker and lusher means heathier.

We did stimulate discussion which is good from an educational standpoint.

 

[Ed Roland]

Do you see any trees that need fertilizer? I know adding it will make trees grow faster, but do they need to? Adding potatoes and candy will make me grow faster, but it is not needed. Until we put some ethics into our industry, we are going to have a hard time getting treated and paid like professionals.So why are you going to fertilize the tree???? To make money is not the answer for a professional.

ok, i think im slowing getting it now. instead a discussion on starting up a fert/soil mgnt. program. We keep going round and round about being ethical, professional, and resposible. So, i'll give this info in an attempt to persuade my compliance I've a hort degree, ISA cert., pest. license. I learned the art of field scouting/treating pest/pathological issues from the good doctors that run the big "B" research facilty in Charlotte, NC. I've been an IPM tech for that co. for several years. I no longer want to spray chemicals but i would like to institute a soil mgnt/fert program. I will perform soil tests, foliar analysis, and practice responsible appplication. So, any u guys have a program and r willing to share some tips? thanks guys.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

ok, i think im slowing getting it now. instead a discussion on starting up a fert/soil mgnt. program. We keep going round and round about being ethical, professional, and resposible. So, i'll give this info in an attempt to persuade my compliance I've a hort degree, ISA cert., pest. license. I learned the art of field scouting/treating pest/pathological issues from the good doctors that run the big "B" research facilty in Charlotte, NC. I've been an IPM tech for that co. for several years. I no longer want to spray chemicals but i would like to institute a soil mgnt/fert program. I will perform soil tests, foliar analysis, and practice responsible appplication. So, any u guys have a program and r willing to share some tips? thanks guys.

If you have a forklift I would go with a small pump and tank setup to start the buisness with. There is a place near me that makes them for a few $k.

If you expect to do long pulls you need 1/2 inch hose to get descent volume, I like a rear mount reel so you can pull to either side of the truck. If it is a pickup, get some rubber sheets to place on the rail so that you do not wear the paint off, I've seen pigtails put in the rack sockets for this purpouse and to help keep the pull straight off the reel.

My prefered probe is the JD9c gun with aluminumn tube probe.

With small tank and on site mix, you can sell different treatments/additives to a client. Things like worm castings, micorrhizae, acidifying products, I've even heard of benign mushroom spoor being done. Thoguh many of those are mico products.

The key here would be low cost and easy to change out.

 

[Ed Roland]

If you have a forklift I would go with a small pump and tank setup to start the buisness with. There is a place near me that makes them for a few $k.

I think that would be the ideal setup for me. Whats the name of the company manufacturing these units? Any thoughts to how my 1 Ton will ride with 100 gallons sitting in this thing? I see Northern sell some of these skid type units, but i would like to find out if they can really put out @ the claimed pressure rate.

Sidebar> Im a hot headed idiot with MUCH more to learn. With that said, I want to appologize to everyone reading this thread for misunderstanding the intent of Mr. Sanborn and Mr. Underwor. I know just enuff arboriculture to get myself into trouble and not nearly enuff to get myself out! After veiwing misc. threads and seeing for myself the level these gentlemen are @. I re-evaluated the previous comments in this threads and see my stupidity!

 

[treevet]

If you have a forklift I would go with a small pump and tank setup to start the buisness with. There is a place near me that makes them for a few $k.

If you expect to do long pulls you need 1/2 inch hose to get descent volume, I like a rear mount reel so you can pull to either side of the truck. If it is a pickup, get some rubber sheets to place on the rail so that you do not wear the paint off, I've seen pigtails put in the rack sockets for this purpouse and to help keep the pull straight off the reel.

My prefered probe is the JD9c gun with aluminumn tube probe.

With small tank and on site mix, you can sell different treatments/additives to a client. Things like worm castings, micorrhizae, acidifying products, I've even heard of benign mushroom spoor being done. Thoguh many of those are mico products.

The key here would be low cost and easy to change out.

Masserated seaweed, composted tea (lipton or red rose, reg or decaf?), benign mushroom (benign operative word), worm castings (are we taking worms, breeding them, taking their poop and putting it in the soil? Thought worms aeriate the soil, why not put the whole poop making unit in there?), micorrhizae (are we putting roots and symbiotic causing fungus in there or just the fungus, why not just micor?). Where is the research that we can establish this symbiosis in conditions that did not favor them being established in the first place and sustain them? It all sounds somewhat pseudointellectuallish, snakeoil salesmanish. I m up for anything but where is the research?

 

[underwor]

Woodweasel, Don't let things bother you too long. I occasionally get wound up and go on a long tirade aimed at no one in particular. The purpose may be to preach, often to the choir, on a subject that I have strong opinions on, right or wrong. Other times it is to stir the pot to see what bubbles to the top in the way of new ideas. And sometimes it is truly worthwhile information.

The internet is the public equivalent of a brainstorming session. You put something out there and for public consideration, collect all the random thoughts that come down the wires, sort out the parts that you can use and formulate your own plan of attack. The next step is to send this new idea back into the fray and see what the new feedback is. In the natural resource fields, there are few 100% right answers (ie 1+1=2), just a wide range of reasonable assumptions based on a huge database of genetically differing organisms in extremely variable environments, responding in varied but often somewhat predictable ways, and cared for by truly unique individuals. It keeps things interesting!!!

Keep up the inquiries and question me often. It makes me think and that is sometimes the best exercise I get.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've seen good results from seaweed products, they are low N have all of Mr Hopkins cafe in them and if not dried, they have cytokinin which stimulates fine root growth and simple sugars that trees can take up from the soil.

There have been papaers in JoA on sugar uptake

• application of cytokinin to a leaf on an aging plant can allow that leaf to stay green, while the others yellow and die
• cytokinin application promotes development of chloroplasts from etioplasts

I've seen work by Smiley and others that shows benefits from the introduction of spores from mycorrhizal fungi, where slurries of masserated roots and mycillia have a very low rate of viability.

One of the biggest results by a different author showed better water uptake in trees in locations that predisposed to drought stress.

I had a bunch of links and saved doc's on this stuff several years ago, but lossed most of it changing computers.

A talk by Dr. R. Bastion given at the WAA winter conferance could be condenced to any way we try to improve poor soils will render results, but they have to be done over time, there is no quick fix/silver bullit.

IMO anything sold as a silver bullit...you can add an sh to the middle.

Soil depletion is an ongoing prosess, we need to improve faster then the tree can take back, since landscapes take out the normal recharge cycles.

 

[ATH]

On a slightly-related note:
Where do most of you guys fill up with water? Always go back to the shop? Have places throughout your work area you can pump from? Ever reduce the cost to the clients to fill up at their house? (Very convient, but seems unprofessional...)

 

[Ed Roland]

I've seen work by Smiley and others that shows benefits from the introduction of spores from mycorrhizal fungi, where slurries of masserated roots and mycillia have a very low rate of viability.

I've quite a bit of history wit this particular scientist and his methods. I have performed his patented Root invigoration on, perhaps, 100 trees over my career with the big "B". I came to understand the process and respect it. His method {paraphrased} consists of air spading the rhizoshpere to a depth of 10 - 12" depending, soil amendments ie, composted manure or mushroom compost, products to increase macro-pore space, are added with fert./mycorr./gypsum, etc. accordingly, after soil analysis. The whole drip line to trunk is then mulched @ 4". The fert. is always an urea derived product with slow release properties. The end result can be rather spectacular for many declining trees.
This is, of course, no silver bullet but I have seen improvement in health/vigor. when @ the time the general consenses was 'a wasted effort.'
Are the compost teas and the 'miracle grow' type amonias really being reccomended for declining, medium/large trees?

 

[ATH]

woodweasel,
Is he airspading the entire area or radial trenching?

Is he doing soil replacement, or just adding the organic material? Most of the recommendations I have seen say supplement so that 25-50% of the total volume is now made up of the amendments. That plus 4" of mulch could leave quite the mound if nothing is hauled (or just blown) away, wouldn't it?

 

[Ed Roland]

ATH, in my minds eye I can see what you are saying, but in practice it is not so mounded. The entire area from the trunk out to the drip line gets spaded. The displaced soil from around the fibrous roots lays back down in a nice fluffymix along with the soil amendments (if performed correctly). So, to answer your question: no soil is removed. Only amendments added -obviously @ the low end of total volume. Imagine a large tree planted in Faffard potting soil. We had amazing results on the campuses of large schools where thousands of kids walk all over the roots. The mulch also serves as a visable barrier to discourage the trampling.
Not cheap, as u can imagine, its time consuming and the large compressor is thirsty and expensive to rent plus they had to pay a premium to the poor soul who gets soil stuck in places no man should have soil stuck in!

 

[underwor]

Were you that poor soul? Sounds like a plan to me. I used the air spade at Bartlett's lab when I was down there. That is my only experience with one, but I notice that they are really catching on in the industry. It takes the concept of vertical mulching to a whole other level.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Are the compost teas and the 'miracle grow' type amonias really being reccomended for declining, medium/large trees?

I've seen work on the teas that looks good, but it is labor intensive.

IMO any of the MG type prodcts need to be used regularly and have too high a salting factor.

poor soul who gets soil stuck in places no man should have soil stuck in!

No matter how much you cover up! Resperators are a must.

I've listen to Joe Bones a number of times too, and sat afterwards and had a few cups with him.

 

[Ed Roland]

I've listen to Joe Bones a number of times too, and sat afterwards and had a few cups with him.

When he came 2 the lab, it was imperrative to sit in on some of his YaRns! One of the Greats!

IPM/PHC is capital investment heavy but has a high rate of return. I loathe excluding this value added service, but I do not want to borrow to make it happen. You fellas heard of any decent auctions of suitable equipment?
Yeah, i could key word it, but its not the same.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've seen some used rigs for sale, but they were all beat to crap. They needed as much parts/labor as a new rig would cost.

How many properties would you expect to be doing to start? You would not need a dedicated rig for the first few years in my experiance.

Also if you include crabapple sprays and similar, you can get the most proffitable, least noxious part of the spray industry. Small ornimentals do not need 30gpm pumps, and neither does just fert.

If you have your heart set on a dedicated truck, then call around to the bigger compmanies to see if they have something they may want to sell. I was with one of the largest TG-CL branches for several years, and they allways had one or two that they were allways talking about dumping. One time a landscape company had come out to scavange my woodpile and ended up buying several trucks and tanks too.

Maybe your past relationship with Bartlett could get you a truck with tank and PTO that needs a rebuild of pumps, reel hoses....

 

[ATH]

...Also if you include crabapple sprays and similar, you can get the most proffitable, least noxious part of the spray industry. Small ornimentals do not need 30gpm pumps, and neither does just fert....

So if a crabapple is the tallest thing you want to spray, and it is mostly used for soil injections (fetilizer and systemic insecticides) is a 50-100 gal tank with a pump that can provide 5-8 gpm at +/- 300psi (basic low-end skid mounted unit) adequate, or is that a waste on money on something that is too small to be very useful???

Also, for a light duty unit is a diaphragm necessary, or would a good roller pump get by without being a complete headache and waste of $$$?

Here are 2 examples:
Northern Tool as (posted above)
Ford's & Gantt Co. (doesn't say on this page, but the 6 roller pump is spec'ed at 20gpm 300psi; 8 roller at 24 gpm 300 psi).

 

[VTclimber]

when I worked for the big B, we had an air spade and used it often. usually we did work to reduce compaction around large trees that had been compromised by construction. use the spade to break up the soil, then add organic mulch and mycorrhize. mix it all back up again with the spade. never got to go back and see the results, but it was a pretty cool concept.

the air spade was also really great for the trenching involved in lightning protection. use that to dig your trench away from the tree to the copper rod. especially good when there are power lines running through the ground.

 

[LightningLoader]

Maybe it's just me, but why do you have to inject something that leaches down on its own already? Why would a homeowner want this service when they can just go throw a little osmocote out on their trees once a year themselves. I may just don't understand the theory well enough, but seems like if injection was so great they'd be using it more in agriculture.

I do agree however, that there is often a need for some sort of fertilizer consulting that could lead to normal application practices (aka throw it on the ground under the tree). Manganese, magnesium, iron, etc often are in short supply and you could really make a person's trees LOOK BETTER by fixing that sort of deficiency (especially with palms), but every soil/leaf report that has ever come back has always said add more nitrogen in varying quantities, so you're hardly doing anyone a huge favor by telling them that they need some N. There may be a market for some kind of triple super phosphate application for ailling plants with root problems, or new plantings.

 

[Ed Roland]

Maybe it's just me, but why do you have to inject something that leaches down on its own already?

Phosphorous is relatively immoblile in the soil so injection applies the element directly to the area of the trees feeding roots. Injection also delivers the product below the level of most of the trees competitors, ie grass plants, etc.

Before anything is injected or 'thrown out under the tree', soil tests/analysis should be performed and the elements added accordingly, if at all.