making ourselves obsolete

[treeman82]

I think that 2 of the factors that should be looked at are greed, and the changing consumers.

The guy who works for me sold his business about 20 years ago to a growing company which is now a nationwide business.

30 years ago, his client base was built of mostly wealthy individuals who were spending quite a few dollars each year on their tree care. Whether that be spraying, or cabling, lightning protection, etc. etc. They were spending quite a few bucks with him. These people had caretakers, or gardeners who would take care of the grounds... and he would be called in for the trees.

Now, having a tree pruned, removed, or sprayed is not something that only the wealthy spend on. Most consumers now have companies coming in to mow their lawns. These lawn companies are always looking to get more customers, so they'll go after the tree work... the regular consumer won't have too much experience, so they will hire the guy who does a good job on the lawn.

These days a lawn company may have a hundred or more lawn accounts... 20+ years ago, 1 guy might maintain 1 - 15 accounts with as many as 5 guys on the crew. These days, those places have been subdivided, and what was once a sprawling estate, might be 2 or 3, or more mcmansions.

Last summer when I went to the ISA convention I remember Cynthia Mills speaking about how in the years to come we will see fewer and fewer large trees, but far more engineered landscapes, with lots of ornamentals. Honestly, what she said scared, and upset me... but there is quite a bit of truth to that. Now as the big trees are cut down for expansion, or just come to the end of their lifecycle, when their numbers are counted over the years, that will certainly put a number of guys out of work, or they will be forced to adapt to do more planting, small trees, phc, and so forth.

 

[BC WetCoast]

I understand what you are saying but it is happening to all trades. Do it yourself materials and knowledge are allowing homeowners to do projects that they would have contracted out before ie drywall vs plaster, plumbing, carpentry etc. Just consider house construction. Not many years ago, only the high end contractors had an air compressor, now any home handyman with a reasonable supply of tools has an air compressor, nail guns, sprayers, etc (and they are cheap to buy).

I think what is happening is if you consider the tree work in a continuum of difficulty, the bottom of the list is now being done by homeowners and newby hacks thus forcing the people who lived at that scale, primarily landscapers to move up the scale. Competition in the middle of the scale is now forcing people up the scale adding more competition to the highly trained people.

How is this going to play out? What I see is that demographics will come into play. As the baby boomers, who were the thrust of the diy'ers get too old to do this work, there will be opportunities for the following generations.

 

[tree md]

Yes, I have found myself getting underbid even if I quote at close to half what I would have two years ago. I'm having to bid jobs based on the time estimate for removal and just forget about any upcharges for high risk or high technical requirements.

Suddenly I find myself not even considering the level of difficulty and just trying to estimate the time as close as possible.

Atlanta is a tough Market. I started out there and it was a great market back in the early to mid 90's. By the time I left in 2001 everyone and their brother was doing tree work though. I imaging it has just gotten worse since I left.

Even here it seems competition has doubled in the past couple of years.

 

[Mikecutstrees]

I understand what people are saying, but I think the difference is quality and difficulty. There are very few really good climbers around anymore. Companies are afraid of trees with no bucket access around here. All of the crappy companies just cut toss and chunk out of the bucket. Really good companies are a cut above. You can't learn how to rig out the top of a 90 foot pine in the wind from a book...... Mike

 

[clearance]

I understand what you are saying but it is happening to all trades. Do it yourself materials and knowledge are allowing homeowners to do projects that they would have contracted out before ie drywall vs plaster, plumbing, carpentry etc. Just consider house construction. Not many years ago, only the high end contractors had an air compressor, now any home handyman with a reasonable supply of tools has an air compressor, nail guns, sprayers, etc (and they are cheap to buy).

This is true, I started working construction in '85, 17 years old. Ever since, the quality of the wood, and the general quaility of the work has gone right down hill. Back then every framing contractor had an air compressor, but not too many other people, and the guns cost more.

I remember when that osb sheeting first came out, junk then, junk now, I don't care what anyone says. Now they use it for stair tread! So yeah, lots of people are doing it, making a lesser product.

As far as trees, maybe guys who have something already going for themselves as in they have done some real work, will get into it. But most homeowners will be too scared, or we will read about them in the paper. Lol.

 

[Golf]

The problem is, our profession is highly specialized, but less recognized.

 

[treevet]

I understand what you are saying but it is happening to all trades. Do it yourself materials and knowledge are allowing homeowners to do projects that they would have contracted out before ie drywall vs plaster, plumbing, carpentry etc. Just consider house construction. Not many years ago, only the high end contractors had an air compressor, now any home handyman with a reasonable supply of tools has an air compressor, nail guns, sprayers, etc (and they are cheap to buy).

I think what is happening is if you consider the tree work in a continuum of difficulty, the bottom of the list is now being done by homeowners and newby hacks thus forcing the people who lived at that scale, primarily landscapers to move up the scale. Competition in the middle of the scale is now forcing people up the scale adding more competition to the highly trained people.

How is this going to play out? What I see is that demographics will come into play. As the baby boomers, who were the thrust of the diy'ers get too old to do this work, there will be opportunities for the following generations.

I agree.

And along with what treeman 82 said in regards to losing many large trees to construction....lawyers are the reason many people are being scared out of retaining big trees which are the main excluding specialty of the high level arb.

 

[treevet]

The problem is, our profession is highly specialized, but less recognized.

This is true. Where is the recognition? Certification. But is it good enough....definitely not.

A woman that used to be a vet and visits our Forestry Board meetings just passed the ISA cert after a few tries. Now the city has her advising them on tree matters. She passed a 100 multiple choice questions test. I passed it 18 years ago without studying (recertified 6 times) and already had over 22 years when I took it. I have worked on trees as well 40 years and she never has and is a heavy old woman so she never will.

I asked the new city manager if I could prune some trees in their ROW and his response was well you are a cert arb so I guess it is ok.

He has the woman and me on the same grounds based on the certification we both have. He has no clue whatsoever about our profession outside of the "Certification".

 

[treevet]

As far as trees, maybe guys who have something already going for themselves as in they have done some real work, will get into it. But most homeowners will be too scared, or we will read about them in the paper. Lol.

They will take the easy stuff (already have) and as mentioned by BC Westcoast....this will push the landscapers etc. up the ladder right into that realm under our high level work which severely limits the overall work load availability.

We do so few easy jobs compared to the past anymore

 

[Komitet]

This job isn't really getting any safer, there's just more rules, nothing is chainsaw proof, it's still just a rope, a belt, a hope and a prayer, (although the belts are a lot more comfy nowadays).

 

[clearance]

This is true. Where is the recognition? Certification. But is it good enough....definitely not.

A woman that used to be a vet and visits our Forestry Board meetings just passed the ISA cert after a few tries. Now the city has her advising them on tree matters. She passed a 100 multiple choice questions test. I passed it 18 years ago without studying (recertified 6 times) and already had over 22 years when I took it. I have worked on trees as well 40 years and she never has and is a heavy old woman so she never will.

I asked the new city manager if I could prune some trees in their ROW and his response was well you are a cert arb so I guess it is ok.

He has the woman and me on the same grounds based on the certification we both have. He has no clue whatsoever about our profession outside of the "Certification".

This is probably my biggest beef with the ISA, and many ISA types. The city mangager is like the public, they are often shocked to find out what the deal is. And the title goes right to some peoples pointy heads. I guess if you never did nothing you have to make yourself out to be important, its BS.

 

[treevet]

Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.

If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.

We climbed on rope that grew from the ground, hemp. Sometimes this rope could decay if laying in an orchard and be rotten in the middle and nobody could see it.

Nobody used buckets ever...or cranes.

If I had multi doms and had to go down and then go back up, I would get a crotch up in the next part of the work and then just pull myself up the line, even if it was 20...30 feet holding the drt with no footlock but rather walking up the stem while walking my hands up the rope. Everyone I worked did this if no spikes were used. We are talking very high level tree companies I am not going to mention.

Very few people used lanyards and no one double tied in.

No chain breaks.

Open mufflers that could burn hemp line. (and your leg)

No ppe ever.

Chuck n ducks

Inexperienced untrained help often that would sometimes crush a climber rather than let the piece drop a little.

Work around high power lines all the time with no advice other than don't touch them.

No lowering devices but wraps around tree trunks which was very inconsistent and damaging to ropes.

I could go on but maybe you get the point. Things have come a long way and are improving with constantly evolving ANSI standards and new certifications requiring training.

Refer to post number 30...sorry

 

[treevet]

This is probably my biggest beef with the ISA, and many ISA types. The city mangager is like the public, they are often shocked to find out what the deal is. And the title goes right to some peoples pointy heads. I guess if you never did nothing you have to make yourself out to be important, its BS.

It is all we got and better than nothing which I existed with for over 2 decades.

A hack could claim to have all kinds of accurate information and kill all of someone's trees. The basics of the CA likely would not let that happen

 

[clearance]

It is all we got and better than nothing which I existed with for over 2 decades.

A hack could claim to have all kinds of accurate information and kill all of someone's trees. The basics of the CA likely would not let that happen

I guess so, but I know what I speak of bothers you as well.

Your list of the old days made me think, golly, I still do some of that, freeclimbing, chuck n ducks, rope around the tree........But always ppe, and steelcores always.

 

[treevet]

see ya tomorrow man.

 

[Komitet]

Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.

If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.

We climbed on rope that grew from the ground, hemp. Sometimes this rope could decay if laying in an orchard and be rotten in the middle and nobody could see it.

Nobody used buckets ever...or cranes.

If I had multi doms and had to go down and then go back up, I would get a crotch up in the next part of the work and then just pull myself up the line, even if it was 20...30 feet holding the drt with no footlock but rather walking up the stem while walking my hands up the rope. Everyone I worked did this if no spikes were used. We are talking very high level tree companies I am not going to mention.

Very few people used lanyards and no one double tied in.

No chain breaks.

Open mufflers that could burn hemp line. (and your leg)

No ppe ever.

Chuck n ducks

Inexperienced untrained help often that would sometimes crush a climber rather than let the piece drop a little.

Work around high power lines all the time with no advice other than don't touch them.

No lowering devices but wraps around tree trunks which was very inconsistent and damaging to ropes.

I could go on but maybe you get the point. Things have come a long way and are improving with constantly evolving ANSI standards and new certifications requiring training.

Refer to post number 30...sorry

I think I forgot an entire sentence in my head, yes the gear and industry standards have improved, but the job itself is still as dangerous as it ever was, sure maybe your chainsaw won't burn through the rope as easily, but it's still just as sharp.

The only thing I don't like nowadays is all this new gear that's supposed to make things easier, people have more toys on their lines and belts than my kids have in their playroom. Too many points of failure IMO, maybe I'm just old school, newest thing I use is a Swabish, sp. and a micropulley.

You do raise a lot of valid points, proper training out values gear any day.

 

[TreeWhitelock]

This is true. Where is the recognition? Certification. But is it good enough....definitely not.

A woman that used to be a vet and visits our Forestry Board meetings just passed the ISA cert after a few tries. Now the city has her advising them on tree matters. She passed a 100 multiple choice questions test. I passed it 18 years ago without studying (recertified 6 times) and already had over 22 years when I took it. I have worked on trees as well 40 years and she never has and is a heavy old woman so she never will.

I asked the new city manager if I could prune some trees in their ROW and his response was well you are a cert arb so I guess it is ok.

He has the woman and me on the same grounds based on the certification we both have. He has no clue whatsoever about our profession outside of the "Certification".

:agree2: You should have typed that in bold letters. Its amazing who can hide behind a piece of paper

 

[TimberMcPherson]

Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.

Here in NZ there was the 40 hour week and SFA on TV. People had time to do things for themselves, and they had bored friends to help em. Alot more blue collars, guys with skills who shared skills with others.

Now people have more money, less time and skills and have more other crap in there lives. The service industry is growing more all the time.

There might be more of us "doing it" when it comes to treework but there are more people expecting others to do it for them.

 

[sgreanbeans]

:agree2:

To hit on an earlier point. We always train our competition.
That is in any service industry.

 

[treevet]

:agree2:

To hit on an earlier point. We always train our competition.
That is in any service industry.

Yes and I agree with Timber as well but now the training/information is so easily accessed and evolved that fewer people are working under jeopardizing or dangerous conditions due to this and the evolvement of technique and gear and equipment that .....my initial question....is this job (given the above facts) really that dangerous anymore? And IMO this is why there are so many more going into the biz.

Yes we apprenticed back in the day but now you can easily get all the info in a short amount of time without the apprenticing aspect.