Marl and a hitch

[eljefe]

re backing up a running bowline

Hi,
I googled this info and I got a hit on an old post on the ArboristSite. The following is what I copied and pasted from that post with credit to treecanopy and to the author of the book, Ashley...

This flap about using a Marl or a Half hitch goes back a few years. There are probably some folks that can remember the border war between the two famous, but unnamed riggers.

Grab your copy of The Ashley Book of Knots, you DO have a copy don't you? No? Every rigger should have one on the shelf. Go to page 518, top left. I will quote Ashley first:

"3114. HALF HITCHING (HH): Unless put around a rope, this is really single hitching but is commonly called "half hitching". It is a method of lashing in which a series of SINGLE HITCHES is employed to secure one or several objects, and it is universally used in tying up parcels, bundles and bales.

3115. MARLINE HITCHING (MH) is used to secure parceling on standing rigging. It is preferred to half hitching, as service lies over it more smoothly. It is also used in lacing the foot and heads of fore-and-aft sails to booms and gaffs and in lashing hammocks. It is firmer than half hitching. The difference in construction between the two may be illustrated by tying a series on a cylinder and then slipping them off the end. HALF HITCHING spills instantly and completely, whereas MARLINE HITCHING resolves itself into a series of OVERHAND KNOTS."

To tie the MH and HH get two pop, soda for the East coast, bottles and two shoe laces about three feet long. Tie a running bowline around the necks of both bottles and let the laces hang. The HH is tied by passing the lace around the bottle then, when it somes back to the front, it goes UNDER the piece of rope that exited the bowline. The MH is tied by passing the lace around the bottle then, when the it comes back in front, it goes OVER the piece of rope that exited the bowline.

While I was preparing this post I played with the laces on my soda bottles and found a little difference in use. With a HH it acted like a bit of a choker and the HH would tighten up but would roll down the bottle in the same fashion as dropping a chunk from rigging. If the rope stretched too much when the piece hit the the pulley, or too much slack was left, the HH could roll right off the butt. The MH would tighten too but it does not seem to roll down the bottle. That is why a MH is recommended for a back up to a running bowline.

Take the time to tie these with a bottle or a small chunk, you will see a difference.

Arborists are Johnny-Come-Latelys to rigging and rope work. It is necessary to look back every once in a while to see what our ancestors did and take those skills forward in whole, not just by pieces. Naming knots correctly and tieing them correctly is just as important as making collar cuts and not over-pruning trees.

Strong limbs and snug ropes!

Tom

For me it the best way to quickly identify the two is the half hitch the working end comes off on the line, on the Marl the working end comes off against the spar. The Marline is just that- a line of Marls. It is also called the hammock hitch, according the Graumont's Book of Knots.

For me, when I have worries about a limb.. no stubs to snug the running bowline to... then I use a fisherman's knot because, when it is set is stays set better that a running bowline if the load comes off it momentarily. There are, of course, disadvantages to it. Slower to tie, slower to untie, and you won't be getting it undone until the weight is off of it.

El Jefe

 

[2FatGuys]

Tell me if I got it right, and which is more better to use?

10-4... you got it right!

The overhand knot portion of a marl helps it to stay snug when unloaded....

 

[juststumps]

This is the only thing I like about a Marl vs Halfhitch. It would have held onto the load I nearly lost. Just from the friction of the bend. I've used a double marl on occasions like this, when I was thinking about premature failure. Tried a triple, but it is too hard to set and dress after the backup is tied.

In this case the marl is the primary knot and the bo'lin, clove, whatknot is the bacup

Mike, the only nit I have to pick with your drawing is the label Marlin A marlin is a common slipknot with a spike, rod, stake, or in our case, usually a carrabiner.

As I said above a marl is a bit more secure then a halfhitch, on a rig of deadwood, I will usually run a series of marls down the load so that if it breaks, all pieces are likely to have a hitch around them.

the hitch's around dead stuff sound like a good idea !!! never would have thought of that... set a line at about 75' in a crotch to a dead 6" X 12' dead ash limb at 70' with a 12' pole saw, out of a XT 65,,friday...

don't think i could have tied the hitch's with the pole saw,, if i thought about that...to far away... needless to say,, the thing broke 3 ways going down,, 4' on the line,, 4' on the roof,, 4' into the wind shield !!!! ( thats the only draw back of a cab over bucket.. that big fish bowl is right up front ... )

i use the half hitch backing up a running bowline on bigger stuff...never used a marl,, thought it was the same thing.. i'll have to try it.. have had stuff with just a running bowline , get turned upside down lowering , rig slipping..

 

[safeT1st]

Marlin Hitch

I though Marl was slang for Marlin Hitch, but if you say it ain't so, I concede to your more accurate information.

You are correct . The actual name is Marlin . The Marlin Hitch is a binding knot(lashing) whereas the Half Hitch is used to attach one line to another or to an object or as a back up to a round turn .

 

[2FatGuys]

You are correct . The actual name is Marlin . The Marlin Hitch is a binding knot(lashing) whereas the Half Hitch is used to attach one line to another or to an object or as a back up to a round turn .

I was taught that a Marl has the free end pulled through the loop as in an overhand knot and a Marlin Hitch has a bight in the free end pulled through the loop and "pegged" in place with a Marlin Spike.

I have used both. I use the Marl usually, but there are time when you want to add another Marl after you have tied off the free end with a timber hitch or running bowline. You can create the Marlin Hitch by using a bight (bend) in the running portion of the rope and pegging it with a "marlin spike" (a piece of limb about 2" diameter and 16" long that you "find" near you in the tree).

 

[ckliff]

Always prefer marl...but, make sure groundie understands concept & how to untie!!!

Recently had to cut about twelve feet off end of bull line after groundie slipped marl off end of piece leaving knot in line. I didnt pay enough attention and wound up loading the knot Oh well, we all learn...

 

[2FatGuys]

Always prefer marl...but, make sure groundie understands concept & how to untie!!!

Recently had to cut about twelve feet off end of bull line after groundie slipped marl off end of piece leaving knot in line. I didnt pay enough attention and wound up loading the knot Oh well, we all learn...

Been there done that... The marlin hitch (with spike) is EASY for the groundies. They just pull the spike and it drops apart. But you have to be careful and make sure you have a clean drop that won't snag the spike and pull it prematurely.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

the hitch's around dead stuff sound like a good idea !!! never would have thought of that...

I picked it up from Chisholm when we worked on the big Redwood (treehouse) project several years ago. Monster tree, monster deadwood. Mark was a different section then I, once when I looked over, he and his partner (at least 7 people in the tree at any given time) were trying to figure out how to run some down the speedline w/o a disaster.

Mike, I'll concede that the series of marls is called a Marline, and I was mistaken on Marlin hitch, as noted above, the slipknot with a carrabiner is a Marlin Spike Hitch.

That all said, the only reference I can find with a quick search, regarding marl and rope is from WT Sherrill (and BK drawing to boot), so maybe it is a recent contraction in the Arborist community. I've only known the term for 10 years.

I remember the halfhitch/marl discussions with Tom D. a few years ago. I would bring it back up every now and then when I got sick of the endless friction hitch reruns, and Tom would hate me rerunning the Marl question

 

[safeT1st]

I was taught that a Marl has the free end pulled through the loop as in an overhand knot and a Marlin Hitch has a bight in the free end pulled through the loop and "pegged" in place with a Marlin Spike.

I have used both. I use the Marl usually, but there are time when you want to add another Marl after you have tied off the free end with a timber hitch or running bowline. You can create the Marlin Hitch by using a bight (bend) in the running portion of the rope and pegging it with a "marlin spike" (a piece of limb about 2" diameter and 16" long that you "find" near you in the tree).

What you have described is correct but the naming is not quite right . Choice of knots has evolved over the years (in some cases degraded) and the original intent of knots gets lost .

Many of the knots we use originated on and around ships where sailors devised them for specific purposes . Alot of the decorative knots and splices resulting from whiling away long hours whilst onboard .
The Marline Hitch is exactly as you described the so called "Marl" . A simple overhand knot around an object and requires access to the working end of line . A series of these hitches around an object allows you to shuffle the attach point down the line from the primary attach point . The Marline Hitch is not reliable unless it follows a secure primary knot and some degree of tension is maintained on the working end .

What you decribed as the Marline Hitch is correctly called the Marlinspike Hitch and is only secure as the toggle used in the bight . Imagine this :

You tie the Marlinespike hitch(loop passed through overhand knot ) and hook that loop to a lifting hook (crane ) . Now , when that lifting hook is raised , (crane) to take the load the Marlinespike hitch tightens and is as secure as the rope and the strength of the hook , ( usually known values and certified) .There are no unknows in the system .

Introducing a piece of wood or toggle into the bight and subjecting to heavy loads is not what the knot is intended for. A toggle , no matter how strong , has the potential to fall out and the knot will evaporate like it was never there . However , on a lifting hook , with clasp , the load will ensure the knot cannot be released until all weight is removed. and then it unties easily.

The marlinespike Hitch is not intended to carry heavy loads unless the toggle is absolutely foolproof as in a lifting hook with clasp .

Some knots have found uses they were never intended for and more often than not will work . This has probably resulted from years of people improvising and trying to get the job done in many fields of work . "this should work ".

Soon these habits become engrained and accepted . all knots have correct applications and some have many . All knots also have incorrect applications and sometimes these get confused . To date the "Marl" does not exist and is simply slang for who knows what .

 

[CLEARVIEW TREE]

Cool hitches

That's cool stuff on the hitches guys,thanks. Can't wait to get airborne and butt-hitch some stuff with that marl and the runnin bowline. Been usin the runnin bowline backed by a half hitch. Always more than one way:monkey:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Introducing a piece of wood or toggle into the bight and subjecting to heavy loads is not what the knot is intended for. A toggle , no matter how strong , has the potential to fall out and the knot will evaporate like it was never there . However , on a lifting hook , with clasp , the load will ensure the knot cannot be released until all weight is removed. and then it unties easily.

Which is why I say we usually us a carrabiner in it.

I use it for attathing a compression rig, to a pull line, or marying 2 ropes.

 

[safeT1st]

Positive as it gets

Can't be much more secure than a carabiner . Hope I didn't leave the impression my previous post was specifically directed at you JP . Just trying to clarify some peoples confusion regarding these knots .

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Can't be much more secure than a carabiner . Hope I didn't leave the impression my previous post was specifically directed at you JP . Just trying to clarify some peoples confusion regarding these knots .

no offence taken, just backingup your take, just in case people may take it as a rigging alternative. IMO the bend ratio abusive to the rope.