Massachusetts Wild Elm?! Immediate Opinions Please

[PinkFloydEffect]

So I took a really really long walk down a railroad here in MA. Mind you it's 2010 in the middle of the woods and I stumble upon this! I almost shat myself she is a beast the height of the canopy line!

This ALSO leads me to believe this is an American Elm with the DED "flagging"

 

[cighon]

yes looks like an elm. they are still out there. most larger trees are either in a highly tree managed town or out in the middle of the woods by them selves where no disease has reached them

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I just went back, for this area (Templeton) and such I have seen maybe 10 Elms roadside that have been treated and well managed. As for this one has never been touched it is grown in by maples and exactly half its roots are in semi wet land which is maybe how it survived untouched. But what strikes me is with all the disease that spreads by railroad, how this thing survived being 55 feet from the track center-line. It is 6.5 feet DBH and has got to be diseased but possibly savable if I find out who's land and if I can clear the touching crowding trees to allow more canopy sunlight, and get the fungicide. It is a single trunk and classic shape, no need to go to waste given the constant balanced natural water supply it could possibly outlive many; treated.

 

[beowulf343]

I'm kind of surprised. Are they really that rare in Massachusetts? While they aren't common around here, we still run into them pretty regularly. I only know of two in the county that are comparable to the size they used to grow to around here, but there are a lot of them the size of the one in your picture and smaller. I probably take down three or four healthy specimens a year and our trim crews see them monthly.

I don't know how accurate this is, but we have a groundie from Missouri that says the elm are like weeds out there.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I'm kind of surprised. Are they really that rare in Massachusetts? While they aren't common around here, we still run into them pretty regularly. I only know of two in the county that are comparable to the size they used to grow to around here, but there are a lot of them the size of the one in your picture and smaller. I probably take down three or four a year and our trim crews see them monthly.

I don't know how accurate this is, but we have a groundie from Missouri that says the elm are like weeds out there.

It's our state tree! And no they are completely gone in the wild that I know of. They are all diseased even the ones being maintained on private property. Since about 1960 1 in every 100,000 stand ratio wise. It's up there with American Chestnut in rarity. They are probably viewed as weeds here only because of the comparison to the loss nationally, but they have been impacted here heavily, but like I said it's the state tree so of course there are more here however a century ago they grew like maple trees wildly.

Here is the canopy maybe it will help 100% identify, I'm 95% sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o3bemcj7g0

 

[Oldtimer]

I have several "wild" American Elms here in my yard, one is about 10" DBH, and all are thriving.
I have watched them grow from saplings.
My friend wanted to cut them so sunlight would better reach the garden, and I wouldn't let him. We moved the garden over instead.

 

[ddhlakebound]

I just went back, for this area (Templeton) and such I have seen maybe 10 Elms roadside that have been treated and well managed. As for this one has never been touched it is grown in by maples and exactly half its roots are in semi wet land which is maybe how it survived untouched. But what strikes me is with all the disease that spreads by railroad, how this thing survived being 55 feet from the track center-line. It is 6.5 feet DBH and has got to be diseased but possibly savable if I find out who's land and if I can clear the touching crowding trees to allow more canopy sunlight, and get the fungicide. It is a single trunk and classic shape, no need to go to waste given the constant balanced natural water supply it could possibly outlive many; treated.

Pink, this one needs a good bit of thought, contemplation, and specific learning before you take any action.

A couple questions though....

Do you mean 6.5' circumference, or diameter? It looks far smaller than 6.5' DBH.

How is it that you think the railroad is spreading Ophiostoma ulmi spores?

(side note).....when did they change the name of the DED fungus from ceratosystis to ophiostoma?

A few things to consider before you act....

Treating an infected tree with fungicide will not save the tree. To stop dutch elm (which I'm not sure your tree has), you must remove infected tissue, and go back as much as 10' from the last visible symptom. The brown streaking the fungus causes will continue the infection if any is left. So you've gotta trace the infection, and remove all infected material (sterilizing your tools in the process).

Removing smaller elms in the area could potentially allow the large tree to be infected through root grafts working at this time of year. May/June is the worst time to be cutting on living elms.

You're gonna freak when you find out the cost of the fungicide to properly treat a big elm.

It's easy to do more harm than good here, imo....Take it slow, learn, question, learn more.....then act.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I have several "wild" American Elms here in my yard, one is about 10" DBH, and all are thriving.
I have watched them grow from saplings.
My friend wanted to cut them so sunlight would better reach the garden, and I wouldn't let him. We moved the garden over instead.

That's interesting, I know they are disappearing by the handfuls

Pink, this one needs a good bit of thought, contemplation, and specific learning before you take any action.

A couple questions though....

Do you mean 6.5' circumference, or diameter? It looks far smaller than 6.5' DBH.

How is it that you think the railroad is spreading Ophiostoma ulmi spores?

(side note).....when did they change the name of the DED fungus from ceratosystis to ophiostoma?

A few things to consider before you act....

Treating an infected tree with fungicide will not save the tree. To stop dutch elm (which I'm not sure your tree has), you must remove infected tissue, and go back as much as 10' from the last visible symptom. The brown streaking the fungus causes will continue the infection if any is left. So you've gotta trace the infection, and remove all infected material (sterilizing your tools in the process).

Removing smaller elms in the area could potentially allow the large tree to be infected through root grafts working at this time of year. May/June is the worst time to be cutting on living elms.

You're gonna freak when you find out the cost of the fungicide to properly treat a big elm.

It's easy to do more harm than good here, imo....Take it slow, learn, question, learn more.....then act.

My bad circumference

The bark beetle could easily sit somewhere on a train and get off at any point

I know that it won't save the tree but it will help boost the strong immune system it already has, it is flagged everywhere so to me appears to have DED. I could at least help it by removing (at the right time of year) the dead limbs that are infected which will reduce weight. Depending on who's land its on there might be a grant available for the vaccination

 

[treeseer]

that flagging does not look like DED

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

that flagging does not look like DED

Did you see the video link? There are random branches and tips all over that have no buds or leaves

http://www.majestictreecare.com/Majestic_main/WebLinks/FactSheets/DutchELm.html

 

[S Mc]

This could be just me being me....but is everyone positive this is actually an American elm, Ulmus Americana?

A mature American elm has rather distinctive diamond ridging to the bark and the twigs have a definitive zig zag appearance. Neither characteristic of which I am seeing on this tree.

It does bear a strong resemblance to the Black cherry, Prunus serotina. But I am not nearly as familiar with those.

We do still have a few American elms here that have been isolated from attack. Yes, a large portion of the population has been decimated by DED. (I'm not sure when they changed the name, Dean...I think they do that periodically to diseases just to jerk us around.)

Generally when someone calls elms "weeds" they are referring to the Siberian elm, Ulmus pumila, NOT the American elm.

Sylvia

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

I can take more bark photos

Black Cherry bark looks like this; completely different:

Black Cherry's also have what seems to be a low crotch level as for this trees crotch is 60+ feet high

If I could just get a confirmation photo or video that the leaves are jagged edged I could set it apart.

The limbs that split at a very high crotch level off the trunk are all zig zaggy but as far as "twigs" go I have no idea

 

[S Mc]

A good close up picture of the leaf would be great.

 

[moss]

A black cherry similar in size to the probable elm would have very different looking bark than the posted black cherry bark example.

For example this is a large woods grown black cherry in Massachusetts, note how dark the bark is and the signature texture/pattern of a mature cherry.

Black Cherry
CBH = 9' 4"
Height = 102'

Edit: Not many of us get to see woods grown old-growth style black cherry, the trunk on this tree is straight for 50', divides into two big leaders, keeps going up and finally in the 65-70+ range you start to see the familiar bark texture of the small cherry we're used to seeing.
-moss

 

[moss]

...and has got to be diseased but possibly savable if I find out who's land and if I can clear the touching crowding trees to allow more canopy sunlight, and get the fungicide. It is a single trunk and classic shape, no need to go to waste given the constant balanced natural water supply it could possibly outlive many; treated.

Agree with the other comments, no need to take action on this tree. It's growing in optimal habitat for an elm, they like their feet in or next to swampy woods. There's nothing you can do or should do to improve the situation, the reason it's there is because it's a very happy tree in the best possible location for the species. Remember that arboriculture practices for landscape or "managed" trees are not the same for wild trees. It's expected for any wild and healthy tree that there will be deadwood, crowding from other trees, hollows, defects, etc. etc.

Something to consider is that this could be a more blight resistant Asian elm species not American Elm. I was just looking at a big elm in a wooded swamp two days ago, very similar to yours in size and height etc., I can't make the correct ID without studying leaf and twig in hand (that would require a climb to get to the crown). Exotic elms have been in Massachusetts long enough (since mid-19th century at least) to have become naturalized in some woods locations, especially near rights of way like railroads and roads.
-moss

 

[moss]

ID note, also should rule out a hickory species for this tree, could be a shellbark or mockernut, can't tell from the upper crown photos for sure but they suggest hickory. I'm not great on hickory ID. A swamp grown elm of that size would have impressive buttresses where it meets the ground, not seeing that, maybe they're hidden in the photo.
-moss

 

[tree md]

Can't tell without a closeup of the leaf pattern but the bark looks identical to an American Elm of about the same size I looked at Saturday. It also had some stain on the trunk from weeping which I also often see on Elms. This one is also effected by DED.

I was researching some of the fungicides available for a client that had a few American Elms on their property and wanted me to see how much it would cost to treat them. As Dean mentioned, tracing is the best way to treat them but I couldn't find any fungicide that could guarantee very good results. One of them I researched claimed protection for up to two years but that was about the best I could find and the equipment to inject and the fungicide itself was more than the client was willing to spring for. At the time I was trying to find an arborist who had successfully treated an American Elm and had long term results but could not find one person who could say they had done so.

I'd be interested to know if anyone here has successfully treated one and has seen long term results.

We still have a few American Elms around. I will see one every so often and will get a few call a year on them. Most are showing signs of decline and there are very few of the Giants left.

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

Moss- Great info I loved it. You really don't think a few crowded trees poking threw the canopy like a maple (having more leaves) blocking sunlight from the Elm could be removed? There is definitely a lot of dead wood up there, snapped branches with huge stubs hanging off the trunk.

The bark DOES look slightly different from others I have seen in the same town, this trees bark seems a bit flat and not as "definitive depth" of the bark ridges. It is a good thing they did not cut a few thick pines between the tree and the railroad as for it acts as a natural wall. I have been working with PanAm railways to determine whether it is on their property or not. It is 55' from the tracks center-line and they own about 36 feet from it so I am on SOMEONES property just have to find out who.

This Elm you speak of in a swamp.... you know I have been working on an Elm/DED documentary now for over 6 month's right? Will you bring me to this tree? The documentary talks of natural DED tolerant trees standing in the wild and how rare they are so this will make a great archive. 6 month's from now if it turns out good I will make one next year on American Chestnut trees.

I will return to photograph the buttress and surroundings, there are a few flat spots on the trunk I don't even wanna think about girdling because over 50% of tree are girdled (read it somewhere)


Tree MD-The weeping stain, is that what that specific dark yellow moss looking stuff is I see on most all Elms?

I have researched it too its very expensive I would only do it if there was some state grants of some sort. The NH Elm Research Institute told me they no longer are providing the injections and are in a process of possibly having the company who makes the fungicide do it instead.

I do know a very close MA forester to me that told me her son does the injections and I am going to talk further with her when I return to Beaman's Pond, her name is Betsey if anyone knows of her.

More on that flagging this is a wide angle zoom out of that infected branch:

 

[PinkFloydEffect]

SMC-They are 4000x3000 photos so I did some zooming around does this help for twigging?

Feel free to visit it anyone you can't miss the thing, it's on the North side of the railroad:

They have those bug bags shaped like an hour glass and they also have bark beetle traps online I was thinking about putting one right at the base and hopefully the beetle will go for the bag and not the bark.

 

[tree md]

The weeping I often see is a yellowish to rust colored to black looking stain.

I was discussing buying an injector from someone in Boston a couple of years ago but never did so. If you are still wanting to try to treat this tree let me know and I'll get in touch with the guy and see if he still has the injection equipment.