modified saws

[tony marks]

just a word of caution to you fellows,, use to stock saws ..i hadnt had a saw to kick back an get me ,in a long time..yesterday in doing an bottum cut on an old hollow dead oak.. it caught and it beat me to my knee. theres no way i was expecting that kinda kick.. but it makes sense .. if you increase the power an chain speed.. just natural that the kick back ,is gonna be a lot faster..i was wearing exstra cover .. if i hadnt been id be messed up now..as it happened ,just couple of cuts that ill watch, but take care of at home..plus one real messed up pair of work trousers...wear you chaps or somethin when using these modified saws in normal work..im still tickled to death with that 962 ..weighs what an 028 does. but talk about cutting..a good 028 aint no slouch in my opinion..but this is somethin else..anyways boys just be aware that having them modified ,requires exstra caution..

 

[Crofter]

Tony, that saw will probably run about the same chain speed in the wood now as a stock 372 wouldn't it?

 

[Bills Oak]

TONY---AMEN !!!--I was cutting with my extremely modified Mac 105 Super Pro a few days ago at full speed timing myself through a 24 inch red oak & it kicked on me & then the chain stuck in the log. Almost ripped the saw out of my hands. I held on & it actually pulled me over the 24 inch oak log I was cutting!--I weigh about 255 & it almost lifted me off the ground completely. Luckily I was able to let go with my right hand so it throttled down quick. It happens so quick that you really have no time to react--SO BE SAFE!!!!!.....Bill Irvine

 

[Crofter]

In the process of fiddling with cut times etc, I have lowered rakers and altered the profile of the front of the raker to change bore cutting ability. It can make them vicious at grabbing the wood all right. Granted there will be more energy in a chain running at higher speed, but the concensus is generally that it should make a properly set up chain less likely to dig in. I dont buy that all your problems are the result of engine mods.

 

[Bills Oak]

I did not imply that modded saws were the culprit--but when you increase the chain speed by 25-50% & what I call grabbability of the chain things all happen a lot quicker & your reaction time is cut drastically...BILL

 

[Crofter]

We certainly can get complacent. With experience you get better at knowing what situation will procuce kickback and generally it doesn't happen very often. Things like Tony had happen with a hollow log presenting a nose touching scenario when he didn't expect it can sure give you a reminder of how quick the snake can strike. Really if you are in a bad position, normal reaction time is just too slow. Its over before you know what happened. I snagged a piece of fence wire one time while clearing away some similar sized and coloured twigs. because the saw was twisted and I didn't have a locked arm behind it, my left leg had a very close call.

 

[Chopwood]

Does it really matter if the saw is modded or not? I will never cut without protection or dismantle chainbrakes as some on this site have said they have. It may be hot in the summer and bulky and cumbersome in the winter, but I'd rather keep my kneecaps,legs,arms and especially my life.

 

[geofore]

Fast saws give you far less time to react and more power to do damage so PPE is a must wear to use the saws. As much time as we spend talking up these ported saws the warning to wear the PPE should be emphisised. Protect those parts of your body you want to still be attached at the end of the day. The time you have to react is cut in half and the power to do damage is up a notch or two. The 7900 Dan worked over for me knocked me off my feet when I pinched it in a wind thrown maple. I caught the saw but it took me for a ride. Be careful out there. The saws are fun, no doubt but they can bite.

 

[tony marks]

well i gotta disagree. with whether mods make a difference..
also it depends on what saw u talking.. my 372 shows less danger but its heavier, but the same thing could happen with it or my 026..
also im talkin more about in field working.. rather than a timed cut where everything is set just rite..im just thinking im gonna be more careful with these saws than my stock saws..if the cutting time is less ,it stands to reason, that
that kick back can be harder an faster.. in my opinion ,this requires
adjusting on the users part..again this is talkin work situations..
i would say the 962 being as how its lighter an like you say frank,, equeal or better to a stock 372.. altho ive never run one stock..this sucker is gonna take
more caution than it did when it was stock.. now that i know ,cause i ran it stock for a long time..it aint even close to being the same saw..its gonna take learning it again..it sure is sweet to blow thru a log ,, makes you proud..but i definitly believe modified work saws ,require even being more careful..
ill say this ,,if i was modifying saws.. i get an written release of liability
from the saw owner.. theres always folks that dont want to take responcibilityfor their own ineptness,or whatever.. having said that,ill agree ,any saw can hurt you .. its just these modified saws take more caution..
bottum line is learning the saw ,as any other tool ,i use..
right orwrong ,i still advise folks use to stock factory saws need to be ready to adjust an such when they get these souped up saws. thats my story an im sticking to it..

 

[Chopwood]

Tony-
I do agree with you to a point- not all members (including myself) cut wood for a living. The only wood I cut is my yearly 15 face and enough practice poplar off my land to keep the skillz up. A lot of us read everything and believe some. I was only speaking as a lower level cutter, I wear it every time I go out in the woods. When a saw kicks, a saw kicks, I don't care how experianced you are. You are not, and I repeat- not faster than a saw chain and if you think you are- remember, even Superman has Kryptonite.

 

[tony marks]

amen to that .. u need protection on ..no doubt about it ..im a believer.

 

[Noah]

Do you see a need?

TONY---AMEN !!!--I was cutting with my extremely modified Mac 105 Super Pro a few days ago at full speed timing myself through a 24 inch red oak & it kicked on me & then the chain stuck in the log. Almost ripped the saw out of my hands. I held on & it actually pulled me over the 24 inch oak log I was cutting!--I weigh about 255 & it almost lifted me off the ground completely. Luckily I was able to let go with my right hand so it throttled down quick. It happens so quick that you really have no time to react--SO BE SAFE!!!!!.....Bill Irvine

Hey Bill, or any of you guys,

From what you said, do you see that the new Stihl chain brake grip feature would be useful on anything 360 size or larger? When I had the 361, I got some kicks, but fortuneately I didn't have it rear up into my face, or yank from my hands.....just not enough torque. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen though. I returned that lemon, but am considering another 361, and heard that the one with the grip switch brake wasn't as comfortable. That's why I'm debating the merits pro & con. If you guys come to a consensis on this, I'm willing to spend the extra $40 on this feature. What do you think?

Frank

 

[Molecule]

I don't understand ...

tony, I'm trying to understand how this happened. At first I thought I understood it, but now I don't ... you were doing a "bottom cut," that is upcutting into a large oak which you didn't know was hollow, and while "exploring unknown territory" with the top of bar ... then you somehow whittled the bar tip into the cut, e.g. the bar tip must have just wandered into some easy wood which you couldn't see ?? and then the tip grabbed some good(?) wood in the hollow part ... and then the tip rotated upward against the hollow part ... and pushed the bar upward-with your push cut, causing the other side of the hollow part, near the spikes, to grab, as in a pinch, and throw the whole saw straight back at your legs, which would then swing the tip down toward the knees ... is that what happened? straight back kickback even on a small saw can be real demon ...

one small comment from my limited experience on kickback ... someone mentioned "reaction time" ... from the one time it happened to me, grabbing a buried nail during a "simple upcut" in a 10" branch--so it was really more of a topcut reactive force than a rotating kickback ... I might add this ... There's no such thing as reaction time on kickback! It does not exist. When the reaction happens, time and space will collapse. During the explosion, the idea of reaction time does not exist. After the fact, you only get to say to yourself, "This is not going to be pretty." They you get to ask yourself, "Where are the pieces?" I didn't get hurt, but, I have never again used the top of bar fast, loose and crazy like I used to, like I was in a race to limb a tree. It's just too scary to do unnecessary "exporing" from the push side of a bar. Where it's necessary, I'm pushin' in scared ...

 

[tony marks]

i was coming up because the thing was hung and required an undercut..
what happened ,im not to real sure..it was rite at the end o the cut an somethin hung..could have been something on the other side.. i didnt even quit ,after i saw it was just surface cuts.. i came outa there i think my neighbor thot i was crazy,lol ..i did go dress it an change pants before i delivered it to my daughter..
the only time ive ever come close to getting hurt ,was when i was finishing a job an mabe deadtired or somethin, least i cant remember anything bad..the worst pt of this was really my wrist .. it hurt pretty bad for a while..
i just been lucky i guess..never really been hurt by a saw..as i can remember.

 

[Crofter]

piecing off the butt of a hangup is tricky. hard to tell wheher it will buckle off left, right, or down and whether the kerf will open or close. I hate doing it alone, and I don't want no one watching me either!

 

[tony marks]

amen to that.. i dont want folks watching me be dumb..especially not the guys on this forum. id never live it down.. but i mite learn somethin.

 

[Molecule]

bumper winches ... and hangups

I installed a 12000# hydraulic winch on my front bumper for just that situation. Sometimes gravity alone ain't enough, and when she needs an assistant, gravity alone can become dangerous. Forget the electric winches--they seem cheaper at first, until you find out that even with "overload protection" they are designed to give 10 full load rewinds, and then cr@p out. The copper in the windings "hardens" or something. With a hydraulic winch you can pull up to full load (as long as you have the backstay) and just "keep it coming" as long as you need it.

military spec hydraulic winch $730 ... bumper $270 ... front chains, back chains, strops, pulleys, shackles, gloves, chocks, etc. $400 ... say $1500 total, plus a trip to Aeroquip to get your hoses cut just right, and about a day's labor maiinly to mount a structural bumper. If you use it a lot, or if you munge up your cable, you will need to replace the cable about once a year ... $70.

Like PPE, you will never regret the investment. At first you might think, the $1500 is mainly for hangup situations, for which there is no substitute. But, you will find that as you get the rhythm of "getting the chains out and hooking up (5 mins)" and "retensioning the spool and putting the chains away (10 mins)" you will also use it roll the beasts over during limbing, pull "Y" branches apart to get room to work, and even just for precision drops in urban situations where you leave a thick hinge so as to gain precise control of the drop placement.

Obviously, when hangups happen there's just no substitute. As to strength, I hooked up a strop at a height of about 16ft to a 18" pine, and pulled it down thru 10" branches of an adjoining tree, and put it right on the ground, rolling up the root ball and all. (ground was very wet)

www.winchesplus.com

 

[DanMan1]

I would have to guess the ferocity of kick-back would not only be influenced by the velocity of the chain and the HP of the engine, but also by the mass of all component in motion, where a saw with a longer bar thus with more chain mass, and heavier moving engine components, would create more energy when all comes to a grinding halt.

 

[tony marks]

thats about what i think to dan..id gone to the 20 bar while i was use to the 16 on that saw...mabe ill rethink that..it does occur to me that i have to rethink things a lot.. mabe cause i aint thinking hard enuff to start with..lol