MS460..stock bore, big bore or popup?

[RED-85-Z51]

2 of the intake and 2 exhaust. A couple lines that i cant get rid of but they dont catch a scratch awl or fingernail.

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[Mad Professor]

every 460 with an aftermarket Chinese jug on is exactly what I said gutless .
you miss read my previous post I didn't say the 460 was like a 60 cc saw I said a 460 with an aftermarket top end is like a 60 cc saw gutless compared to an OEM 460 top end

Point taken, I didn't catch you meant w/AM P/C assy

 

[Mad Professor]

Those really aren't the numbers that relate to making power

Has to do with machining of P/C assy

 

[Mad Professor]

2 of the intake and 2 exhaust. A couple lines that i cant get rid of but they dont catch a scratch awl or fingernail.

I'd run that before buying an aftermarket.

I think most people get too aggressive with the honing. You just need to get the transfer off and take any glaze off so rings will seat. That's why I still use the acid method if no holes in the nikasil.

Hard to tell in the before picture, but didn't seem like too much transfer, and I've seen pistons much worse

 

[RED-85-Z51]

Ordered a Meteor piston and Caber rings, dual port cover, new rim and a new roll of solder to check squish.

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[Mad Professor]

Ordered a Meteor piston and Caber rings, dual port cover, new rim and a new roll of solder to check squish.

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I think you made a good decision.

Be sure to clean up the cylinder with some soapy water so no grit from the honing is left over.

Do you know what caused the scoring? A gasket kit comes with seals so would eliminate one place for a leak.

Lets us know how it runs after a couple of tanks of mix through it

 

[RED-85-Z51]

I think you made a good decision.

Be sure to clean up the cylinder with some soapy water so no grit from the honing is left over.

Do you know what caused the scoring? A gasket kit comes with seals so would eliminate one place for a leak.

Lets us know how it runs after a couple of tanks of mix through it

I believe that after the Hurricane a few weeks ago there was a hot batch of ethanol that went around, the guys doing cleanup jobs can't wait to have a saw rebuilt so they just go buy a new one, got the 460 and a 440 in back to back days with the same story, same damage, both saws had mixed gas in them and mixed gas was in the carbs. Seems like the story on both was..ran fine, no idle issues or starting issues, they were turned off and refused to restart. I was thinking maybe straight gas on the 440 but now...another saw that the owner said they got gas at the same station around the same time...same damage. Anyways, they didnt want to wait a couple weeks to have them fixed so they said i could have them for parts or rebuild or whatever.

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[Mad Professor]

I believe that after the Hurricane a few weeks ago there was a hot batch of ethanol that went around, the guys doing cleanup jobs can't wait to have a saw rebuilt so they just go buy a new one, got the 460 and a 440 in back to back days with the same story, same damage, both saws had mixed gas in them and mixed gas was in the carbs. Seems like the story on both was..ran fine, no idle issues or starting issues, they were turned off and refused to restart. I was thinking maybe straight gas on the 440 but now...another saw that the owner said they got gas at the same station around the same time...same damage. Anyways, they didnt want to wait a couple weeks to have them fixed so they said i could have them for parts or rebuild or whatever.

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Free 460 and 440 , good score. That deserves a You SUCK!!!

To be on safe side would be best to do a pres/vac test after you get them back together. E10 will pick up moisture and eventually phase separate, any sign of water in the tanks?

The 460 looks to be in good condition besides the P/C, how about the 440? Or save that for another thread................

 

[RED-85-Z51]

Free 460 and 440 , good score. That deserves a You SUCK!!!

To be on safe side would be best to do a pres/vac test after you get them back together. E10 will pick up moisture and eventually phase separate, any sign of water in the tanks?

The 460 looks to be in good condition besides the P/C, how about the 440? Or save that for another thread................

440 is not as clean, but its all there. It went up a bit harder than this one.

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[deye223]

Point taken, I didn't catch you meant w/AM P/C assy

No problems there was no animosity meant .
I just looked at your jug pictures after honing I can't tell from the pictures but I really hope you haven't done too much damage to the nikasil fingers crossed I really hope it works out that's a nice looking saw doesn't look too beat up .

 

[Mad Professor]

No problems there was no animosity meant .
I just looked at your jug pictures after honing I can't tell from the pictures but I really hope you haven't done too much damage to the nikasil fingers crossed I really hope it works out that's a nice looking saw doesn't look too beat up .

That's why I use the acid method to remove transfer, along with wet/dry sandpaper and soapy water. Takes longer done by hand but good results. Just have to be careful with the acid if there is defects in the nikasil and around the ports.

A pic of a 036 jug I did that had lots of smear, see piston that came out of it.

 

[Yukon Stihl]

Has to do with machining of P/C assy

Port timing and shapes is where the OEM have the advantage to AM stuff. Even if the machining is as good as OEM if the timing and port shapes suck so will the power.
Now someone who knows how to clean up the ports and get the timing right can get the power of an OEM or better depending on their skill

 

[RED-85-Z51]

No problems there was no animosity meant .
I just looked at your jug pictures after honing I can't tell from the pictures but I really hope you haven't done too much damage to the nikasil fingers crossed I really hope it works out that's a nice looking saw doesn't look too beat up .

I know ill probably regret trying to save the oem cylinder, probably should have just snagged the meteor top end and called it a day but...folks get a real chubby over oem jugs so ill try it. I used a small very fine 3 stone hone, 1.5" long narrow stones with an adjustable spring tensioner, used a light oil and went slow. The very top was the worst..i don't see any thin spots around the ports. I prefer a hone because my experience is that concentrating only on the damaged areas results in thinning of the plating in that area. The acid way works well too but i hate using it...flash rusts steel just from the vapors.

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[Mad Professor]

I know ill probably regret trying to save the oem cylinder, probably should have just snagged the meteor top end and called it a day but...folks get a real chubby over oem jugs so ill try it. I used a small very fine 3 stone hone, 1.5" long narrow stones with an adjustable spring tensioner, used a light oil and went slow. The very top was the worst..i don't see any thin spots around the ports. I prefer a hone because my experience is that concentrating only on the damaged areas results in thinning of the plating in that area. The acid way works well too but i hate using it...flash rusts steel just from the vapors.

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If you use fine grit wet/dry paper and your fingers you wont thin the nikasil over the areas with transfer. You do need to alternate the acid and sanding as the aluminum smear will have carbon embedded in it that the acid won't dissolve. The finish will be much nicer than using a hone.

Note the extensive cross hatching the stone left, on the entire cylinder. That fine with a cylinder using a cast iron liner but is not desired with chromed or nikasil lined cylinders.

Two more pictures, one a cleaned up cylinder, the other a new one.

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

I know ill probably regret trying to save the oem cylinder, probably should have just snagged the meteor top end and called it a day but...folks get a real chubby over oem jugs so ill try it. I used a small very fine 3 stone hone, 1.5" long narrow stones with an adjustable spring tensioner, used a light oil and went slow. The very top was the worst..i don't see any thin spots around the ports. I prefer a hone because my experience is that concentrating only on the damaged areas results in thinning of the plating in that area. The acid way works well too but i hate using it...flash rusts steel just from the vapors.

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You might not regret it, I bought a Pro mac 800 with a strait gassed cylinder and the piston was toast but the cylinder was still salvageable. It has a tiny portion of chrome 2mm chunked out under the intake and a actual dent in the chrome, I dug the old rings out of the piston and flipped the on the new/used piston. I got pretty aggressive with abrasives on the cylinder and that old school chrome laughed at it, polished it up nice.
I have about 10 tanks through her and dropped 4 trees so far , honestly if the OEM cylinder is in better shape than that you'll probably be fine. chrome chunk
Original piston

 

[TheAMMIXman]

I will say that each time I ordered a big bore kit for a 460 I order extra cylinders. Some are salvageable, some are total trash out the gate. If you can do some basic port work to clean it up there’s free power to be had. Of course if you can port you can probably do more than clean up the worst of the imperfections. There is no replacement for displacement, too bad the aftermarket stuff is half bad out the box.

These may be helpful:
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/ms460-rebuild.338844/
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/huztl-farmertec-ms-460-clone.337452/
Good luck

 

[cuinrearview]

Sandpaper, patience, and a little scotchbrite are all that's needed to remove transfer from a jug. Here's some pics of what a hone will do.
If you're the impatient type cylinder reclamation probably isn't for you.
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/transfer-removal.340325/

 

[huskihl]

There is no replacement for displacement,

Maybe on 2 different bore cylinders with the exact same port layout. But port size, shape, and timing will more than make up for a few cc’s of displacement from going to a big bore.

 

[TheAMMIXman]

Maybe on 2 different bore cylinders with the exact same port layout. But port size, shape, and timing will more than make up for a few cc’s of displacement from going to a big bore.

Totally agree. Timing still has to be good shape size and flow have to be good. There is an old school argument that all things being equal and proportional there was no replacement for displacement.

I bet in a lot of cases if one just pops a big bore kit on doing nothing, performance doesn’t not necessarily increase over OEM.

Not looking to start an argument, maybe just explain I’m not a total fool. Amature saw guy, yes. lol.

Have a good night.

 

[huskihl]

Totally agree. Timing still has to be good shape size and flow have to be good. There is an old school argument that all things being equal and proportional there was no replacement for displacement.

I bet in a lot of cases if one just pops a big bore kit on doing nothing, performance doesn’t not necessarily increase over OEM.

Not looking to start an argument, maybe just explain I’m not a total fool. Amature saw guy, yes. lol.

Have a good night.

No arguments here either. I just have yet to see any big bore cylinder outperform the oem it replaced.

Good night to you too, sir