Need neighbor/tree help. Please!

[Elizasmom]

An independent arborist came out to my house in June to assess a tree of my neighbor's that I was concerned about due to a lean in the direction of my house. He spoke to both of us and gave us his recommendations. Now that we are preparing to do some of the work he recommended, I have a question that I hope you won't mind helping us with. Before I start with that, I should mention that I am becoming more and more frightened of this tree falling on my house and onto my sleeping children. It's just a really disturbing thought that seems so plausible to me when I look at this leaning giant. Our bedrooms are in the "attic" of the house. Please tell me it is really rare that people are actually killed this way. We've even moved our little one's bed to reduce the risk.

Anyway, on to my question. The tree is a massive white oak that leans toward my house. The arborist was not concerned that the tree was leaning into an immanent fall because it grew that way and had corrected near the top. However, there is a very large limb that extends horizontally (in the direction of the lean), it crosses part of my neighbor's yard and then passes over our fence and across part of my yard. In the attached picture, you can see the horizontal limb in question at the top of the image. The arborist recommended that this limb be cut back (I believe to reduce wind resistance and reduce the weight on that side). As you can see, the limb extends from half of the "V" in the trunk, and he wanted it to be cut back to the "V".

I got a very reasonable estimate today and called my neighbor. I had told her I would do the legwork to get a good deal. I offered to pay half the cost of cutting the limb. She said she would pay half, but also stated that she doesn't see why she should have to pay anything. She seems to want me to hire and pay these people, and then she'll write me a check for half. It's like her tree has become my responsibility somehow. She isn't worried about it, and feels I should pay since I am. I felt that asking her to pay half on the limb was more than fair. By the way, I like this limb and would never want to cut it if he hadn't said it was needed. Also, the arborist wanted the whole tree thinned out, and I have no intention of pushing that issue. I know she would not want to do it, and I don't want to cause any further issues.

Anyway, because of all the turmoil with the neighbor, I really just want this to go away. I know there are differences of opinion within the field, and I would love to know if this is really necessary or if there are pros and cons to removing such a large branch. Please keep in mind that this limb hangs horizontally in the direction of the lean. To a layman, it appears like it's weight is making the tree lean (of course, I know that is not exactly so, but I just want to explain the position of it). It is very long (maybe 30-40 feet) and will need to be at least trimmed back at some point so as not to rub my roof. Anyway, please tell me if I can just let this go, or if I need to find a way to get the work done period.

If we do proceed, what should I make sure the Tree Company does and does not do in terms of correct removal? I know they should not use spikes, but is there anything important about how the actual cut should be done?

Thanks so much for any help!

 

[Spotted Owl]

More photos, different views(tree&house) and wider views nedded. Daylight would be nice also.

Owl

 

[Elizasmom]

Thanks for looking! I will post more pictures tomorrow in daylight. This site is great.

 

[treeseer]

A that we are preparing to do some of the work he recommended ... the arborist wanted the whole tree thinned out, and I have no intention of pushing that issue.

Removing or reducing limbs is common practice in leaning trees. So is (some) thinning. You paid an arborist for a report, so it's best to follow ALL recommendations, not just one. If your mechanic recommended an oil change and a tune-up, would you just get the tune-up? If the owner of the trunk has to write a check, it is no more trouble to ask that it all get done the right way.

If you attach the report (personal information deleted of course) and good pictures, we can help. The trunk owner should write the check for half right away and not have you bill her. That sounds fishy. If there is any doubt she will pay her share, send a copy of the report in a certified letter to her and to the town attorney stating your concerns. we can help with that if need be. Cost, $2.

Eliza and the rest should sleep well. Kids killed by trees is exceedingly rare. Trees killed by half-done and poorly-done and not-done maintenance (neglect) is very common, when owners and arborists do not act calmly and responsibly.

 

[jbone]

Im no expert but from what I understand (in my area at least) is that it is the property owners responsibility. If that tree were to fall onto your house, regardless of wether or not anyone does get hurt or killed, it is her responsibility. One of my neighbors was sued b/c of damages their tree did to another neighbors house. Its something you should look into, and explain to her why she should really be paying in full but you were kind enough to offer half. Again it may not be the same in your area. Hope this helps.

 

[woodacresguy]

I would ensure that either a signed letter or contract between the neighbor, yourself, and the tree company indicates the cost will be split, before any work is done.

It appears from the picture the limb in question is not very far from the ground. More pictures would help.

 

[Elizasmom]

More Pictures

Hi - Here are a couple more pictures. The branch in question is the lowest one. I can't get a picture of the whole tree due to it's height. I need to stand in my other neighbors yard to do that (I will take one from there and post later). The deck in the picture is mine. The branch hangs over the deck.

You have differences of opinion on this board about whether this would be good or harmful to the tree. Is there no right or wrong answer on such things? Does the tree appear to be a hazzard, or is the recomendation just an added, but not totally crucial, safety measure. No tree is "safe", so I just need to know how big a deal this is. Please take a look at the new pics and tell me what you think. Note that most of the branches on this tree are in the direction of the lean. There's not much of anything balancing out this branch. The branches appear to have grown toward sunlight since there is another big tree on the other side of it that blocks the sun on that side.

Thanks! I will post another distance shot soon.

 

[Elizasmom]

Here are a bunch of additional pictures ...

The first pictire is a close up shot of where the branch meets the trunk (the trunk is a "v" in this case). The branch is actually about the same thickness as that section of the "v". The bump in the picture is a squirrel!

 

[rb_in_va]

Where in VA are you?

 

[Elizasmom]

a suburb of Washington, DC.

 

[Ekka]

What diameter do you think that limb is where it meets the main leader/trunk?

I'm guessing but I reckon maybe 10"

It's fairly common to try to keep cuts below 4" dia so the tree can close the wound by growing more wood over it. Large wounds may not close at all allowing a passage for pests/fungi etc to enter the tree. In this instance it will weaken the large leader it grows from.

A close up of the limb reveals growth triations on top and fibre buckling beneath. This means the limb is slowly sinking toward the ground. Also the union at the leader looks a little odd, worth a closer look for sure. Lightening the limb is desirable.

Cabling could also be another option. I think cabling back to the leader it comes from and then cabling that back to the other trunk. If limb failure occurs then the cabling will also assist in fall protection of the limb.

Just some ideas to toss around. Others here are more experienced with cabling and white oaks.

 

[rb_in_va]

I'm in Falls Church, VA, a suburb of Washington, DC.

Just curious. I'm in Hampton.

 

[Husky137]

From the pictures you have provided it would appear that if the offending limb were to fail it would fall in your yard and do some fence and turf damage. I can't see the house being near enough to be a concern, if there is one at all.

Why not use the services of the consulting arborist for the remediation he suggested?

You also mention that hiring a "good" tree company would cost too much. Internally you seem to have determined that your children's safety is a concern only if it doesn't cost too much or more than your fair share. Is it really a problem then?

Additionally, down in your neck of the woods it seems likely that there is a homeowners association to deal with? If so what do they say?

Having said all of that, it's pretty difficult to get a truly "correct" answer from some pictures on the internet. Putting hands on the tree is a whole different ball game.

 

[Elizasmom]

Hi- Thanks for the cabling idea. Is that to prevent the limbs from breaking off, or would it help to prevent the whole tree from falling (my main concern)?

 

[TimberJack_7]

I read and understand your concerns, but from looking at the pictures, I fail to see what it is you are worried about. First of all if you are dealing with a White Oak, that is about one of the best trees to have in your yard, or a neighbors yard for strength, beauty, shade and property value.

As another already mentioned, the branch in question may lean towards your house, but it does not look like it will actually strike the house. Even if it were to strike the house, from your pictures it looks like it would be nothing more than the tips hitting the house. At best they may rip a gutter off.

As far as suing this poor little old lady, who do you think is going to look like the bad guy in court? I find it laughable that in your great knowledge of trees, you think she is obligated to pay one thin dime to have any tree work done. Have you even had a passing thought as to whether or not she is on afixed income, or the degradation in her property value should this become a removal in the future? She has absolutely no obligation to put any money towards what is starting to sound like a future hack job since you are so concerned with price.

Now let's play a little "what-if" game. Suppose that bottom branch comes crashing down and smashes your fence and does damage to your house. Do you think her insurance company is going to pick up the tab? Not likely. In the world of insurance, this would be considered an "act of God". What this means is that your insurance has to cover it, even though it is her tree. Check your policy, or call your insurance provider, or better yet, call the Insurance Commisioners Office in your state. Get back to us on this one so that we all may have some collective information.

 

[Kate Butler]

oak discussion

Calling your insurance company seems a good, preventive idea. It lets them know that there could be a potential liability and also that you are concerned with alleviating it (pat yourself on the back here). It will look good for you if (ever) there is a problem.

Get another opinion from a different certified arborist. If the opinions agree, then decide what you want to do. If not, come back here with the new info and we'll all talk again.

 

[appalachianarbo]

I can't really tell because of the sun behind the tree, but in picture #4, it looks to me like there is what we "included bark" between the two leaders (halves) of the tree. What this means is that when the tree was young, these two halves grew next to each other without touching. As they grew older and thicker, they started to touch, and although they may now look like they have "fused" together, that is not the case. Instead of wood fibers holding these two leaders together, as is the common case, this tree has only bark between the two. This included bark, coupled with the angle of attachment, makes for a weaker junction. Ekka's recommendation for cabling sounds right. I would recommend a system called Cobra, which allows the tree to move somewhat naturally, but still provides support. If the leader did try to split off towards your house, the Cobra system would catch it before it got very far. A reduction of the horizontal limb may reduce the chance of that leader splitting off. Like I said, though, I can't really tell if there is included bark. It just looks that way.

As far as the entire tree coming down on your house, did the arborist poke around at the base at all, looking at the root flare, root plate, etc.? This tree is relatively old, and like you said, grew this way because of competition. If there is any sign of upheaval of the root plate, or signs or a history of disturbance in the root zone (septic digging, change in grade, etc.), or rot pockets in the trunk or root flare, it may be time for removal.

You are entitled to work on any part of the tree that is on your side of the property line, if you do not harm the neighbor's portion. For advice on who should pay, it would be wise to check your state's statutes on a situation like this, as well as check with your insurance company and the VA Dept. of Insurance. Many lawsuits and case studies can be found online that may shed some light on the subject without you having to pay a lawyer to tell you (although that may be prudent, too).

Can you take a picture from the back corner of your yard opposite the shed so we can see the relation of the tree to your house?

 

[treeseer]

I think Ekka highlighted some possible defects, but the most critical is the main V crotch. I agree with your concern--if that V fails, it is on your house. With leaves acorns and rain, it is falling with great velocity. The pictures show this clearly--look again, guys. This risk can be greatly lessened by branch reduction (removal of small horizontal branches at the ends) up and down the crown and possibly cabling. Yesterday I took out 15% of a 90' x 90' oak this way, to lessen the risk of it going through electric wires onto a road. Reduction pruning is standard practice.

Please post the arborist's report. Removing one big branch and a little thinning does not sound like the way to go. Great advice on calling your ins co--after all you are paying premiums, right? They may well send a certified letter on your behalf. You own the branches above your property and you can have them worked on, just so your neighbor's part of the tree will not be damaged.

 

[appalachianarbo]

What I failed to mention was that if you do remove the entire horizontal limb, you are creating a large wound that can introduce disease, and more importantly, rot. This will increase the chances of the rest of that leader coming down.

I think your best bet is a limb reduction followed by a cable system.

 

[rfwoodvt]

First things First

Before things get too far along, I would highly recommend that you not do any work without signed authorization from your neighbor.

I know, I know, there is a lot of precedent for being allowed to work on those parts of the tree that go over your property.

But! There are also just as many lawsuits that get filed just the same and there are many more neighbor feuds than that. All because someone was cranky enough to not want someone else touching thier trees.

Given the current relations with your neighbor, as you described, any arbo that would work on the tree without a signature from your neighbor would be nuts.

Also, the only times I have ever heard of a tree owner being succesfully sued because their tree did damage were when there had been numerous warnings both casual and professional, OR, it was common knowledge by many people familiar with the tree that the tree was in a seriously bad way. The phrase that is commonly bantered about is "a reasonable person should/would have known" that the tree was an imminent threat.

While this tree exhibits signs of defects and potential weekness, unless it is grossly obvious that it is falling apart it would be difficult to fix blame on the tree owner.

If you cannot get your neighbor to let you do the work then your best bet is surely to get another report from a consulting arborist, send her copies via certified mail and perhaps one to the town tree warden or town attorney.

At least that way, should the unthinkable happen, you will have ample proof that your neighbor had been forwarned and had decided not to act.

All that aside, if you can get permission to work on the tree there is a lot that probably can be done without doing wholesale damage to the tree.

Ed Gilman from UFL has been doing a studies where he is taking codom limbs (albeit on smaller trees) and by subordinating and reducing them, sometimes quite severely, he seems to be able to induce a branch collar around the previously co-dom union.

Granted this limb is rather large for that but, given some prudent reduction cuts and perhaps some good dynamic support then the tree will likely be in a better place and the hazard to the building and "chillins" may well be mitigated enough to satisfy Eliza's mom.

Without touching the tree myself its hard to say anything without speculation. Also, without actually seeing the angle of approach to the house, I'm not sure that it would cause that much problem if it did fail.

As for having hte nieghbor pay for it? If she offers to help, great! If not, well, the reality is this...you are wanting to significantly change something that someone else.

Seems to me that if the owner does not particularly want to have anything done to thier property then I cannot see why they should be expected, much less compelled to pay for it?

If she is willing to allow you to do the work to her tree, then I'd have to say Pony up and pay for it yourself.

I would guess that that tree was there long before you moved in and that that branch was there then too.

Seems that to get pushy about it now is a bit inappropriate.

:deadhorse: