Need neighbor/tree help. Please!

[Elizasmom]

I never said I had any intention to sue my neighbor. She is not a "poor old lady". Please. She's not even retired. I am sympathetic that she is single and money conscious. We had a nice talk this evening, and I told her I canceled the work that was to be done in the a.m due to our differences of opinion on this. She's going to call the arborist to discuss more, and I am going to call some more reputable tree companies to get estimates. I told her that she needs to be the one to officially hire the people because I don't feel right arranging work on her tree. She understood my point of view on that.

I can't understand why any of you are saying that she doesn't have an obligation to perform work on her own tree when it is necessary to render the tree safe. Let me exaggerate the same situation to make a point. Let's say the tree was totally dead and rotten. Would you still say the "poor old lady shouldn't pay a dime"? I wish I had known that my neighbors should have to pay for my trees before I spent thousands on them recently! So, if someone is concerned about their neighbor’s tree, that makes them responsible for paying for it even when an expert says the concern is a legit? I'm sorry, but there is zero logic in that. Aren't people supposed to maintain their own trees and keep them form being an unreasonable risk to their neighbor's homes? When your tree needs work, do you ask your neighbor to pay because it threatens his house and happens to be leaning away from yours? I don't think so.

If her tree hit my house, she may be liable if she doesn't do as the arborist has suggested. It's may or may not be an act of God if it is shown that the tree had a defect that she did not act address when she could have/should have. I don't feel I should have to pay anything, but I have offered to pay half to be a good neighbor. And by the way, the people I called are cheap because I was trying to save HER money, not myself. It is for that same reason that I have dropped the whole issue of thinning the tree. If I got someone expensive, that adds to your "poor old lady" theory. If I get someone cheap, it's a hack job. Can't win.

You are correct that the branch would not hit my house. I would actually be happy if it fell off. My concern is that the branch is somehow making the whole tree unstable. That was what I understood from the arborist. My ONLY concern is the safety of my kids. Even if I knew the tree was certain to fall on my house, I would not care if I also knew that we would be out when it fell and unharmed. I'd probably take the opportunity to renovate and add an upstairs bath ---if I was still alive.

I have lived here 10 years, and she's been here even longer. The limb has grown a lot, and I think the tree leans more than it used to, which is why I am being "pushy" now. It pains me to hear you use that word, because I have been almost timid in my dealings with her on this. I may sound that way on this site, but I want to preserve my relationship with my neighbor as much as I want to resolve the tree issue. By posting here, I was hoping people would say just to leave it alone so that I could just drop the matter.

Yes, I could pay $10,000 to fix up her tree with cables etc. because my kid's safety is everything. I could also spend that money on an alarm system, side airbags, and other safety gear. I suppose I am on a limited income too, and I have to weigh the risks vs. the expense, which is what I am trying to do here. I could pay for it all, but I would deeply resent it. I have put many thousands in to trees that just dropped dead on my property recently (3 huge ones). No neighbors paid for that. I can't start being the person the neighbors come to when their trees need work.

All your cabling ideas sound great, but I can't see it happening due to the cost. Also, does that reduce the risk of the whole tree falling, or just one section of the V breaking away? If the one section of the V broke off, I think we would live to tell about it. If the whole thing fell, we would be pancakes. It all boils down to one big question --- do ya guys think this tree is going to fall on my house in the next 10 years or not? Thanks for all your replies.

 

[rebelman]

You should mulch the root zone. Grass is not particularly nurturing for roots. Roots hold a tree up.

 

[treeseer]

You should mulch the root zone. Grass is not particularly nurturing for roots. Roots hold a tree up.

Good point.

Eliza's got a smart mom. Sorry you lost the 3 oaks. How did they fail?

 

[Ekka]

It all boils down to one big question --- do ya guys think this tree is going to fall on my house in the next 10 years or not? Thanks for all your replies.

I'm on your side here, in fact there's a whole thread running on exactly this sort of problem.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=36825

I call people in your position "the victim". No-one should live in threat or fear. Some trees by their mere size intimidate people enough let alone when they have defects.

Once an owner of a tree is notified and made aware of it's defects and chooses to take no action then they are negligent.

Your neighbor has a duty and responsibility to ensure the safety of the tree. You have every right to live without fear or cost to negate a hazard that you do not own.

I noticed many other leaning trees in the pic and marked them accordingly. They appear to be in the next yard over so perhaps knock on the door and have a look at them too ... ask that owner if they have had any failures.

I also had a closer look at that main stem. I cannot see any "elephant ears" or ooze or crack. Not all co-dominant unions fail, cabling and some reduction pruning would mitigate that hazard.

As far as the whole tree falling, that depends on a combination of things, whilst unlikely it is possible. However it may also be possible to than cable that tree back to 2 others so it cant fall in the direction of your house.

People and property have right of way, you shouldn't have to live in fear and a compromise needs to be reached where there's a balance of risk. Ultimate satisfaction and no risk would be entire removal and extreme would be doing nothing .... so between all the recommendations and theories a compromise needs to be reached ..... and it should be at 100% your neighbors cost.

 

[Castenea]

I noticed many other leaning trees in the pic and marked them accordingly. They appear to be in the next yard over so perhaps knock on the door and have a look at them too ... ask that owner if they have had any failures.

Leaning trees are fairly common around here, so the symptom that we look for is the heaveing of soil on the uphill side of the lean (in this case between the two oak trees in the neighbors yard), or horizontal cracks in the trunk, If either is present I would recommend immediate removal. I have seen trees that grew 40' horizontally and 30' vertically with the crown entirely to one side of the base. There are some very picturesque trees growing in old frence rows and former woodlot edges around here.

Without evidence of immanent failure I would recommend a crown cleaning (remove dead, defective and crossing branches), possibly some reduction or thinning of the limbs on Elizasmoms side, and maybe some cable to help support the limbs (these will not stop a limb from breaking out).

 

[treeseer]

the symptom that we look for is the heaveing of soil on the uphill side of the lean (in this case between the two oak trees in the neighbors yard), or horizontal cracks in the trunk, If either is present I would recommend immediate removal. ..cable to help support the limbs (these will not stop a limb from breaking out).

Good post, but I don't see horizontal cracks as a 100% sign that removal is needed. But most of them need immediate reduction of removal, true.

i've heard others say that cables won't stop a limb from splitting. I know you can't guarantee that , but then again I thought thee whole purpose was to try.

Eric, why is risk mitigation 100% the trunk owner's duty? I think sharing is more fair. After all it was planted by a squirrel.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

not likely to fail

From my desk in Boston I would put myself on the line and say that this tree is not likely to fail. I would further say that if it did the damage to your house would be minimal.

Send your neighbor a registered letter, talk to her about it FIRST, so it doesn't come across as hostile.

YOU pay to have the limb in question reduced (or tipped back or whatever your local CA reccommends). After all it is your peace of mind in question here.

 

[appalachianarbo]

Leaning trees are very common. Only a fraction actually fall. Like I said before, get the arborist to look at the base as well as the crown. Cables and limb reduction will not cost thousands of dollars. It looks like it should be a two hour job. Ekka's picture had 4 cables (I think). Only two are absolutely necessary (one between leaders, and one from the smaller leader to the horizontal branch) should you choose to go that route.

rfwoodvt was talking about forseeability when he said "a reasonable person should/would have known." In all honesty, this tree has no defects that are obvious to the untrained eye. It is entirely reasonable for your neighbor not to be able to foresee any problems. Obviously, since you have now alerted her to the situation, and may be sending her certified letters, etc., she may be more aware, and therefore, more liable. But, like someone said, you have been living there for 10 years, and the tree much longer. This situation could have been remedied before it got to this stage.

If you do choose to cable the tree, get several bids from certified arborists that carry liability insurance. Since not all companies install cables, you may not want to lead them by asking " Do you install Cobra cables?" Some will say yes so they don't lose the sale, and then learn how to install them on your tree. Ask what their opinion is about supporting the branches and leaders, and if they say that they use Cobra, great.

We'd still like to see that picture with the tree and the house in it.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

From my desk in Boston I would put myself on the line and say that this tree is not likely to fail. I would further say that if it did the damage to your house would be minimal.

I agree 100%. What needs treatment is not the tree, but the people involved.
It sounds like the arborist on site felt the tree was fine and only recommended some reduction work to treat the owners symptoms.
There is nothing in the pictures that suggest any type of failure might occur. That said, if the only way you'll sleep at night is by tearing into the tree, you should pay for it! In fact, I might suggest you also have the tree in it's current condition appraised, and then pay the owner for the loss she will incur by your reduction work, which if done to hard will lead to the eventual removal of the valuable tree.

 

[toddol1971]

Why cant the more horizontal limbs be cut & wound dressing be applied to the cut? I've done this before, & never seem to have a problem. I've got one tree that I have to reapply the dressing every few years just cause it starts to look bad. Tree still looks good 8yrs & counting. It was even struck by lightning & I had to cable the fork together so it wouldnt split.

 

[Elizasmom]

OTG Boston, why do you think it wouldn't do much damage to my house? Do massive trees landing on a roof not do as much damage as one would think?

I can't get a shot with my house in it. You see my deck in one picture. The house is just beyond that (to the right, outside the picture).

Anyone who says I should just leave it alone is telling me what I want to hear. If it is reaonable to leave it alone, that's what I would prefer to do. But all your differences of opinion have me really unsure. Does cabling involve drilling a hole through the tree? I sounds so major to me, and it's not clear it would even help.

 

[antigrassguy]

??????

In your first post you expressed enough concern that your children would be killed by this tree that you moved a bed. Now "You are correct that the branch would not hit my house", whats up with this? Then you state. "when it is necessary to render the tree safe", safe tree= a stump." Then some true colors come out with "It all boils down to one big question --- do ya guys think this tree is going to fall on my house in the next 10 years or not?" WELL.... in the next 10 years are there going to be any storms strong enough to rip this out of the ground and throw it in your general direction?, will the oak suffer from sudden limb loss and have grown enough to hit your house?, will armillaria eat the roots?, will the IC union be able to hold on?, will oak wilt take it out first?, will she move and somebody else move in and cut down every tree?, if terrorists blow up the white house would the blast blow her tree in your direction?, will we be alive in 10 years? Let me consult my magic eight ball.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

Why cant the more horizontal limbs be cut & wound dressing be applied to the cut? I've done this before, & never seem to have a problem. I've got one tree that I have to reapply the dressing every few years just cause it starts to look bad. Tree still looks good 8yrs & counting. It was even struck by lightning & I had to cable the fork together so it wouldnt split.

because wound dressing does nothing to promote healing of the wound, the fact that you are reappling proves it.

OTG Boston, why do you think it wouldn't do much damage to my house? Do massive trees landing on a roof not do as much damage as one would think?

I can't get a shot with my house in it. You see my deck in one picture. The house is just beyond that (to the right, outside the picture).

Anyone who says I should just leave it alone is telling me what I want to hear. If it is reaonable to leave it alone, that's what I would prefer to do. But all your differences of opinion have me really unsure. Does cabling involve drilling a hole through the tree? I sounds so major to me, and it's not clear it would even help.

Of course the Ceritfied Arborist who has been to your property can offer the best advice. Here is a summary of my thoughts:

The tree in question would not do as much damage as you think. It is not 'massive' by any strech of the imagination. I have seen thousands of trees down on cars, houses, buildings, you name it, I've probably seen it. It still amazes me how little damage is done by whole trees falling over.

Whole tree failures usually do LESS damage than say a branch falling from great height.

Being that this is a white oak we are talking about with very strong wood, I think that you have little, if anything, to fear regarding this tree.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

 

[Kate Butler]

misunderstandings

In your first post you expressed enough concern that your children would be killed by this tree that you moved a bed. Now "You are correct that the branch would not hit my house", whats up with this? Then you state. "when it is necessary to render the tree safe", safe tree= a stump." Then some true colors come out with "It all boils down to one big question --- do ya guys think this tree is going to fall on my house in the next 10 years or not?" WELL.... in the next 10 years are there going to be any storms strong enough to rip this out of the ground and throw it in your general direction?, will the oak suffer from sudden limb loss and have grown enough to hit your house?, will armillaria eat the roots?, will the IC union be able to hold on?, will oak wilt take it out first?, will she move and somebody else move in and cut down every tree?, if terrorists blow up the white house would the blast blow her tree in your direction?, will we be alive in 10 years? Let me consult my magic eight ball.

If I understand correctly, Elizasmom is worried that IF the tree comes down the horizontal branch will weight it (pull it) in the direction of its lean: then the entire tree WILL fall on her house.

I had a very similar situation with a mature maple with a 14" diameter, 35' long, literally horizontal branch actually touching the roof of the clients' house. If the tree were going to fail, it would absolutely have gone onto the client's house (been pulled by the weight of the problem branch). There were no other compensating branches to ameliorate the pull of the horizontal one. The tree was otherwise healthy and on a very steep bank so that 80% of the roots had to be 'behind' the tree (no soil at all between the tree and the house because of the slope of the bank that was 8' high - any roots to the 'front', the clients' side, had to grow down 8' before being able to spread laterally). Thusly, most of the trees' ability to keep itself upright was AWAY from the clients' house. The physics of the whole mess came down to risking the house (remember, the tree is maxxed, agewise) or taking the limb and risking subsequent systemic tree damage. The client chose to remove the limb and there have been no fungal or insect problems (2 years later).

I still believe she needs a second opinion and that we need more pictures.

 

[antigrassguy]

Personally I believe she needs a RCA to do the assessment. Someone with tree and law understanding and the accreditation to back it up.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

good example Kate

There is nothing wrong with removing the limb completely in this case either. White oaks are pretty resistant (anthracnose comes to mind as the most common dis. around here) "After two years their has been no fungal or insect damage" is a good thing BUT the wound WILL continue to decay.

It would be more arboriculturally correct to head it back, so as not to promote decay in the main stem.

 

[johnha]

I am not an arborist. I live in a Philadelphia suburb in a neighborhood that is heavily wooded. If I look at all the trees around my house, and the smallest is at least 50' tall, there are very few that are 'straight'.

I've seen at least two requests for you to share the arborists recommendations. Here is a third. I can only think that you are not posting the recommendations of the expert because he pretty much agrees with what has been posted here and you're looking for someone to agree with you.

I could be wrong, so feel free to prove me so.

 

[Elizasmom]

I am not posting the arborist's recommendations because I don't have anything. He spoke to us about it but made no report. He charged 2x as much for a report, and we saw no need for it. Before you think he was some crappy arborist, rest assured that he was not. He is very prominent in the field and is often called on as an expert in litigation. Despite this, I open to the idea that there are flaws in his opinion or better ways to handle this. I am also open to the idea that he just said we should do this because he wanted to make me feel better about it (as someone suggested). In reality, it does not make me feel better to mess with the tree unless it is needed. At one point, I did tell him that I really liked the shade from the branch, and I asked if it was really necessary to cut it. He said that it was. He never said that cutting it might cause decay of the main trunk, which would be a total nightmare.

Your "theory" about the arborist makes no sense to me. How could he "pretty much agree with what's posted here"? He'd have to have multiple personality disorder to agree with what is posted here. You have such different opinions - "cut the branch", "don't cut the branch - you'll kill the tree!", "you're evil to a poor old lady", "she shouldn't pay a penny","she should pay 100%", "I'm on your side", "strap it", "it will damage your house", "it won't damage your house" . . . What he said is two things: 1) thin the tree to minimize wind resistance 2) cut back the big branch.

He examined the base of the tree and said he thought it looked good. I am questioning everything now because some of you think the branch is too thick to be cut back w/o harming the tree, and some of you think the tree should just be left alone. It would be just my luck to mess with it and make things worse.

Let me state again in a different way that I am not worried about the branch falling on the house. It would not hit my house, just deck and fence. My worry is that the branch is what will MAKE THE TREE FALL in the first place due to all its weight. Even without the branch, the lean is such that IF it falls it WILL hit my house. So, again, I was interested in cutting the branch to reduce the risk of the tree falling at all. This is what I got from the arborist. The wind really picks up that branch and whips the whole tree around during storms.

Of course, I don't want to do anything that is likely to harm the tree. I asked the arborist about just cutting the branch back to the fence line, and he said that would kill the branch and cause long-term harm to the tree.

I agree that the tree looks less than massive in the pictures, but it is very big in person - maybe 65-80 feet. It could pick up some speed coming down because of the distance to the house. The point of impact to the house would be about half way up the trunk. The trunk in that half way area is about 12" thick. There would also be lots of 6-10" limbs hitting the house. I'm glad the damage would not be as bad as I imagine.

Would strapping this tree to the tree behind it would somehow stop it from falling on my house, or would it just pull the other tree down with it?!

 

[alanarbor]

I would venture to say that you have gotten a lot of good, and some marginal advice in this thread, and you're probably just as confused if not more so than when you started.

I would strongly suggest a second opinon by a registered consulting arborist, to help put your mind at ease. As much as people here want to help, giving advice from digital photos on the web cannot compare to being on your property, asessing the tree as it relates to rest of the area it and you share.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

amen

I would venture to say that you have gotten a lot of good, and some marginal advice in this thread, and you're probably just as confused if not more so than when you started.

I would strongly suggest a second opinon by a registered consulting arborist, to help put your mind at ease. As much as people here want to help, giving advice from digital photos on the web cannot compare to being on your property, asessing the tree as it relates to rest of the area it and you share.

X2

And Mom if you know the guy is good then why don't you just take his advice???????