nervous about shock loading

[luvthetrobag]

do any of you guys ever get nervous when lowering a piece on itself I've been climbing 6 years or so and i still get nervous about this. I don't like the fact that the piece free falls before it catches. I always minimize this distance.But i cant take it all out.I also tend to try to keep my lowering line in another tree or in another section of the tree than i am tied into for safety reasons.

 

[luvthetrobag]

nervous about shock

ideally im left tied into a piece i can just drop but sometimes in the end it has to be lowered on itself which leads to my first question.

 

[nytreeman]

It can get hairy at times but I try to take the pieces as small as I can if I'm nervous about the tree I'm in.If possible I'll have my TIP in another part of the tree but usually when you get to the spar and you can't just drop bombs you have no choice I like to wrap off my lanyard 2 or three times if I feel its going to spring back,and be tied off at least twice.Sometimes swinging out big pieces I'll let them hit the trunk to absorb some of the shock but if you have a good man on the rope then he can let it go enough to take some of that shock as it falls,of course if your working/lowering from the tree that doesnt apply.
btw heres a video from another post shows why you should wrap off nice and secure.
Hold on man and stay safe!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=86c_1174376029

 

[ropensaddle]

Yeah, that is a pet peav brings up vectors and jethro bodine
scyfering got to make sure gear is up to par! We sometimes
don't know how close we are to failure of gear in these trying
times. I bought a bucket but still sometimes have to climb and
do what you are talking about I will take out smaller sections
as I am too old and been doing this a long time and do not like
kissing the tree any more! Groundsman not understand when
and how much to leter run.

 

[luvthetrobag]

just watched the video. man that was just careless. I guess my favorite removals are ones where the lowering lines are in another tree. luckily in SE pa we have some monster tulips and oaks to rope out of and they go by quick and easy for me. But if not you just have to use the one your in. I make a strategy game out of it trying to never be tied into a lowering point while not sacrificing efficiency. not always easy to do. however sometimes you have to bite the bullet and hope everything is as strong as you think.

 

[luvthetrobag]

love a good rope guy

yeah its all about who is on the rope. theres guys i work with who i trust so it makes it a little better knowing that they will let it go but hold it enough so the piece swings clear of whatever I'm trying to miss.

 

[nytreeman]

Yup they gotta know when to let it run
heres another clip with a good"boing"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RcRR3a83CJQ

 

[clearance]

however sometimes you have to bite the bullet and hope everything is as strong as you think.

In other words, gamble with your life-roll the dice on your life. For what? People have been killed trying to save landscaping, no thanks.

 

[jomoco]

Shock Loading Fears

You are very justified to fear shockloading, and wise to seek advice on how to mitigate the very real dangers involved.

Mother nature herself is an arborist's best friend in that when her winds blow hard she tends to weed out the trees/branches/roots that are weak or faulty long before an arborist gets off the ground. So I always take a guarded bit of comfort in that she's tested the tree a bit before I go aloft.

There are many steps a pro can take to minimize shockloading dangers.

My first consideration is the integrity of my main tie in point since tying into a branch and working off it is a form of shockloading to a degree. Any removal I do is started by relieving my main TIP of as much weight as possible to increase it's weight bearing capacity as much as possible. If these branches can't be chucked or thrown down to a safe LZ, I am very partial to using a speedline because the full weight of the branch going down it is never exerted on the speedline, shockload is minimized, branch is safely delivered to the LZ avoiding any potential targets. I have now established a fairly secure TIP to work off.

Common sense and a good understanding of the characteristics of the strength of the wood of the tree you're working is vital to a successful outcome. When a branch or leader to be removed is weak or already overloaded, relieve the weight gradually via speedline/lowering line in small increments to avoid shockloading.

Teach your groundmen/rope handlers to smoothly lower branches down in a graceful controlled manner that never allows the full weight of the load to be exerted on the lowering point whenever possible and practical to do so.

Remember that dead trees should never be shockloaded to avoid catastrophic or even deadly branch/tree failure.

Speaking of shockloading dangers, I just completed a classic extremely high risk/danger dead oak tree removal yesterday in Descanso, CA using a 35 ton hydrocrane that had a few surprises in it for both the crew on the ground and me in the tree. I'll be posting pics of the job soon once they're gathered and put in order.

Work Safe!

jomoco

 

[joesawer]

To make a long story short.
An inexperienced crew and "disaster relief" supervisor, refused to let a wet, 3' long X 32" diameter chunk from a dead Jeffreys pine run, after having agreed to the plan before the rigging was set.
The choker that the pulley was attached to broke, it was around the trunk at my chest level. The 3/4" choker wrapped around my chest and back leaving a terrible whelp. There were no knots or hardware on the piece that wrapped my body. If there had been, I think the injury would have been serious.

 

[nytreeman]

:angry2:

To make a long story short.
An inexperienced crew and "disaster relief" supervisor, refused to let a wet, 3' long X 32" diameter chunk from a dead Jeffreys pine run, after having agreed to the plan before the rigging was set.
The choker that the pulley was attached to broke, it was around the trunk at my chest level. The 3/4" choker wrapped around my chest and back leaving a terrible whelp. There were no knots or hardware on the piece that wrapped my body. If there had been, I think the injury would have been serious.

Big chunk of wood to have swinging when you don't expect it to be hanging around
Joe if that had been me that "disaster relief supervisor" best be running or really damn big 'cause about now this p!ssed off climber is on his way down to "discuss" his reasoning why he didn't let it run when that was the plan to start with.

 

[alloutdoorsboy]

question for Jomoco

Hey Jomoco, you say," I am very partial to using a speedline because the full weight of the branch going down it is never exerted on the speedline, shockload is minimized, branch is safely delivered to the LZ avoiding any potential targets"

So by using a speed line you are running a rope from your section of the tree that you are tied into to somewhere away from the tree right?? So when you load it , which you will when you slide something down it you are causing a side load on that lead. A side load would worry me more than a vertical load as wood is way stronger in compression than laterally. I have been climbing for 20 years but dont use speed lines much due to this worry of mine, is it unfounded????

 

[woodchux]

I'll sometimes run a speedline strait down to the base of the tree and let pieces fly in a semi controlled fashion.

 

[jomoco]

Speedline vs Loweringline

Hey Jomoco, you say," I am very partial to using a speedline because the full weight of the branch going down it is never exerted on the speedline, shockload is minimized, branch is safely delivered to the LZ avoiding any potential targets"

So by using a speed line you are running a rope from your section of the tree that you are tied into to somewhere away from the tree right?? So when you load it , which you will when you slide something down it you are causing a side load on that lead. A side load would worry me more than a vertical load as wood is way stronger in compression than laterally. I have been climbing for 20 years but dont use speed lines much due to this worry of mine, is it unfounded????

When you say "running a speedline from a section that I'm tied into", no, or very rarely in excurrent conifers in the sense that the whole tree is essentially an upright leader. Also running a speedline away from the tree and away from the target are not the same thing.

Speedlining does indeed sideload it's anchor point, much the sameway the wind does, but as I said the full weight of the branch/log being lined is never exerted on the anchor point, and can be lessened even further by increasing the angle of descent on the speed line.

Common sense pretty much dictates that in decurrent trees to the degree possible you keep your TIP separate from your lowering point, and that in situations where they have to be the same, you speedline/lower smaller branches/logs as an act of self preservation. Yes, I do prefer speedlining in situations where shockloading is a concern, particularly when the rope handling skills of your groundmen is questionable or in doubt.

The line between high production treework and safe treework can often get blurred and distorted by many factors, but it is the responsibility of the climber who's life is at stake to make the final call, it can often mean the difference between life or serious injury/death.

Be a pro, get educated in your arborist skills and carry a big bag of tricks to mitigate the dangers inherant in our profession.

Work safe

jomoco

 

[CoreyTMorine]

+1 Jomoco and Woodchux. The speed line is an invauluable tool, way faster than a lowering line. Instead of taking the energy out of the fall via lowering, the speed line allows you to direct the work away from easily damaged areas, which is all that we really need to accomplish anyway. It also can be used to align the brush, if the rope guy is standing over by the chipper I can shoot down 5 or 6 limbs and they all land butt towards the chipper, very cool.

Another option to consider is a second lowering line. Place a block in any tree within about ‘100 of the tree you are working in. Bring a fig 8 up with you and tie the chunky to the lowering line from the block, and to a lowering line from the fig 8 (which is tied to the tree either below the chunky or any where within your reach). Now cut the chunky and push it off, even if the ground guys do not let chunky run via the blocked line, the fig 8 will.

There are a number of advantages to this system;
• By using the fig 8 for attachment in the tree being worked upon you eliminate the 2 to 1 load of a block up in the tree.
• At most half the weight of the work will be on the fig 8, with the remainder being on the block.
• Trees are DESIGNED to shed energy via side side-loading. That’s how they remain standing through wind storms, the ability of a tree to support its own canopy is just a side effect of this much more important function. Never forget this. By using either a speed line or a second lowering point you are using the trees natural ability to distribute energy to your advantage.
• The 2 rope system allows you to work with rig points that are much lower in the tree. We often rig high to limit rope angle and thereby reduce swing. But with the 2 lines swing is automatically limited and directed to an area between the 2 rig points, none of this high speed orbiting of a single rig point. With 2 rig points I have set the blocks even with and sometimes a little below the work, no problems.
• No one needs to tend the fig 8. as the work falls away more of the weight transfers to the block eventually there wont be enough to pull the line through the 8, this is a very smooth transition. Much nicer than even the best ground man could do.

Yes you should be concerned about shock loading, but side loading is a tool more often than a liability.

Stay safe.

 

[Magnum783]

I am still learning so please bear with fellers. Many of you speak of putting a block in a neighboring tree how are you doing this? Are you climbing the neighboring tree or are you using the block on the end of a bull rope with more a Srt type anchoring system. Thanks just trying to learn. Never used a speedline could see lots of place where one would be handy.
Jared

 

[jomoco]

Good points!

+1 Jomoco and Woodchux. The speed line is an invauluable tool, way faster than a lowering line. Instead of taking the energy out of the fall via lowering, the speed line allows you to direct the work away from easily damaged areas, which is all that we really need to accomplish anyway. It also can be used to align the brush, if the rope guy is standing over by the chipper I can shoot down 5 or 6 limbs and they all land butt towards the chipper, very cool.

Another option to consider is a second lowering line. Place a block in any tree within about ‘100 of the tree you are working in. Bring a fig 8 up with you and tie the chunky to the lowering line from the block, and to a lowering line from the fig 8 (which is tied to the tree either below the chunky or any where within your reach). Now cut the chunky and push it off, even if the ground guys do not let chunky run via the blocked line, the fig 8 will.

There are a number of advantages to this system;
• By using the fig 8 for attachment in the tree being worked upon you eliminate the 2 to 1 load of a block up in the tree.
• At most half the weight of the work will be on the fig 8, with the remainder being on the block.
• Trees are DESIGNED to shed energy via side side-loading. That’s how they remain standing through wind storms, the ability of a tree to support its own canopy is just a side effect of this much more important function. Never forget this. By using either a speed line or a second lowering point you are using the trees natural ability to distribute energy to your advantage.
• The 2 rope system allows you to work with rig points that are much lower in the tree. We often rig high to limit rope angle and thereby reduce swing. But with the 2 lines swing is automatically limited and directed to an area between the 2 rig points, none of this high speed orbiting of a single rig point. With 2 rig points I have set the blocks even with and sometimes a little below the work, no problems.
• No one needs to tend the fig 8. as the work falls away more of the weight transfers to the block eventually there wont be enough to pull the line through the 8, this is a very smooth transition. Much nicer than even the best ground man could do.

Yes you should be concerned about shock loading, but side loading is a tool more often than a liability.

Stay safe.

Excellent Points Corey, as long as you follow a logical well thought out branch/wood removal pattern you won't get tangled up, and your grondmen will appreciate the nicely organized brush/wood arrangement on the ground.

Jared, to better understand what Corey is saying, go to an old post of mine titled " Advanced Rigging Walking Brush and Wood " some nice fellow did some excellent diagrams in that post showing multiple lowering points, and what Corey is saying is thay by placing a block/pulley in a nearby tree, you can distribute the weight of the loads between the tree you're working down and the nearby tree with the block to land the loads between the two trees.

This is good info for newbies and intermediate climbers who want to learn new tricks and techniques.

jomoco

 

[CoreyTMorine]

I am still learning so please bear with fellers. Many of you speak of putting a block in a neighboring tree how are you doing this? Are you climbing the neighboring tree or are you using the block on the end of a bull rope with more a Srt type anchoring system. Thanks just trying to learn. Never used a speedline could see lots of place where one would be handy.
Jared

Either - Or works fine for setting a block. If there is a lot of brush I will usually climb up and set a remote station, if it’s an easy throw that I can clearly see I use a Bigshot or just toss the bag up. But definitely set the block so that you don’t have to climb up again, like SRT, fig 8 at the bottom of the tree or just a coupla wraps and a few half hitches will do the trick.

I will lower a few limbs then have the rope guy pull the rope out and slide a few down, whichever will work better for each limb. But the two techniques work well together, after a little practice you will know which to employ. Just get a few slings and have at it. You’ll prolly get a few hung up at first, that’s ok, just take note of why/how they hung up and move on.

For slings I use ½” 3 strand, with a big loop at one end, and a biner crown spliced to the other. They are plenty durable, easy to splice, and don’t seem to catch in the brush as much as webbing, however they are much heavier. I use my old life support Am’D ball locks for biners, the guys hate em cause they have to take their gloves off to open them. I should switch over to dedicated non-locking steel biners, but I can’t think of what else to do with all the Am’D’s, and it seems a shame to throw them away.

Good luck, climb safe.

Thanks for the support Jomoco.