New Construction, Need Ideas on Inserts w/ Knock-outs to Heat 2 Upstairs Bedrooms

[stihlaficionado]

We are fast approaching getting the final architectural plans for our Idaho retirement home.
The home will have a heat-pump as recommended by the builder, but I want wood heat as the main winter heat source

Two stories , Sq ft 2600-3000, 1st floor approx 1400-1600 sq ft, perhaps smaller.

The building pad sits on a huge chunk of granite approximately 8 feet down, so no basement, just a crawl space.


I want an insert that can supply some of the heat for the upper 2 bedrooms & something that has good burn times( 8-10 hours plus).

My other option was getting a stove like the BK King & having the heat migrate up to the 2nd floor(with baseboard electric heat in the rooms).
I looked at the BK Princess, but no knock-outs.
Another option is to have the heat pump just supply the upper floor heat

Are knock-outs a good option here, or are stoves/inserts like this best used in the basement?

I do not want to go with an OWB, everything must be inside the home.

Thanks for the replies

 

[stihlaficionado]

We are fast approaching getting the final architectural plans for our Idaho retirement home.
The home will have a heat-pump as recommended by the builder, but I want wood heat as the main winter heat source

Two stories , Sq ft 2600-3000, 1st floor approx 1400-1600 sq ft, perhaps smaller.

The building pad sits on a huge chunk of granite approximately 8 feet down, so no basement, just a crawl space.


I want an insert that can supply some of the heat for the upper 2 bedrooms & something that has good burn times( 8-10 hours plus).

My other option was getting a stove like the BK King & having the heat migrate up to the 2nd floor(with baseboard electric heat in the rooms).
I looked at the BK Princess, but no knock-outs.
Another option is to have the heat pump just supply the upper floor heat

Are knock-outs a good option here, or are stoves/inserts like this best used in the basement?

I do not want to go with an OWB, everything must be inside the home.

Thanks for the replies

Taking a hint from another member that has the ICC RSF Opel 2 I checked their website.

This brand looks like a good option. The Delta Fusion model would do the job for the entire upper floor.
Made in Quebec

 

[rancher2]

Make sure your home owner insurance company is going to be good with a indoor wood burning appliance and if they are is the insurance rate something you can live with. Insurance company's in my area don't like wood burning appliances.

 

[CaseyForrest]

Sounds like, since this is new construction, you would be better suited getting a High efficiency, zero clearance Fireplace.

Most have knockouts to duct heat into other rooms and some work well with inline duct fans.

https://www.valcourtinc.com/en/products/high-efficiency-fireplaces/
https://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/products/wood-fireplaces/

 

[woodfarmer]

What are knock outs?
I grew up feeding a big Elmira insert, took two of those blue recycle bins per night but would heat 2400 sf.
up here Napoleon and Pacific Energy are the two big brands.
A factory made high efficient fireplace may work. Supplemented with mini split heat pumps.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

Zone your heating system.
And do not rely on your heating contractors advice alone.
I wanted to zone our new home, ground source heat pump, wood stove in living room.
He said not necessary to zone.
He told me years later when I commented on the cold lower level, below grade with bedrooms and egress windows, that GET THIS!!!
I did not want to bid it that way because of cost and loosing the bid.
Do your home work....
Confirm what (crap) people tell you.
Retirement home should be single story, 4' wide stairs if any, 4' hallways for wheel chairs or walkers, large bathrooms for the same. Plan ahead, plan for surgeries, broken ankles, and retirement (read old age). 3' interior doors through out.
Large garage with heat and a bit of extra room.
Multiple wood stoves. They make good plant stands.
A very large three year wood shed is a must.
Window knock outs in interior walls like windows without glass for light and air flow, and some interior walls that do not go to ceiling, multiple ceiling fans in opposite corners of house. One pushes the other pulls.
Laundry, master bedroom both on main floor. Three season screened porch, fire extinguishers in every room with attached flash light. Back up generator if you have a well.
We love Vermont Castings enameled Defiant top load stoves. Gorgeous! and large fire box.
Edit: Well covered entries, from snow and rain. Covered exterior steps if you have them.

 

[farmer steve]

Lots of good points @Sandhill Crane. Single level for old age. We love our old farmhouse but carrying just about anything to the 2nd floor or basement isn't getting easier.

 

[stihlaficionado]

Zone your heating system.
And do not rely on your heating contractors advice alone.
I wanted to zone our new home, ground source heat pump, wood stove in living room.
He said not necessary to zone.
He told me years later when I commented on the cold lower level, below grade with bedrooms and egress windows, that GET THIS!!!
I did not want to bid it that way because of cost and loosing the bid.
Do your home work....
Confirm what (crap) people tell you.
Retirement home should be single story, 4' wide stairs if any, 4' hallways for wheel chairs or walkers, large bathrooms for the same. Plan ahead, plan for surgeries, broken ankles, and retirement (read old age). 3' interior doors through out.
Large garage with heat and a bit of extra room.
Multiple wood stoves. They make good plant stands.
A very large three year wood shed is a must.
Window knock outs in interior walls like windows without glass for light and air flow, and some interior walls that do not go to ceiling, multiple ceiling fans in opposite corners of house. One pushes the other pulls.
Laundry, master bedroom both on main floor. Three season screened porch, fire extinguishers in every room with attached flash light. Back up generator if you have a well.
We love Vermont Castings enameled Defiant top load stoves. Gorgeous! and large fire box.
Edit: Well covered entries, from snow and rain. Covered exterior steps if you have them.View attachment 890750View attachment 890751View attachment 890752View attachment 890753View attachment 890754View attachment 890755View attachment 890756View attachment 890757

Thanks for your reply..

We can't do single story due to buildable space restrictions. If we cantilevered the home a single story would be possible. But since I'd rather give our kids the $ instead of the contractor, the home needs to be a 2 story. The lot is over 6 acres, on three tiers of elevations. But the view
of the Cabinet & Selkirk mountains & of Lake Pend Oreille is only from a 1.8 acre sliver of land, that is long & not that wide.

The bottom floor will be built for older folks and their needs & will have two fully handicapped equipped bedrooms/bathrooms. The upper floor will have two bedrooms, 1 full bath & a play room over the garage for when the kids get off their arse & start having kids of their own(which they both have said they want dearly). Main access will be from the garage.

Ideally, the unit heats the entire house. The RSF Delta Fusion can do this I think.

A couple folks on the mountain that have already built, have included small heating/A/C units by Mitsubishi that sit above the bedroom doors . Supposedly they are super quiet & work well.

 

[stihlaficionado]

Make sure your home owner insurance company is going to be good with a indoor wood burning appliance and if they are is the insurance rate something you can live with. Insurance company's in my area don't like wood burning appliances.

About 1/3 of all homes in Idaho use wood for heat. And every home we were in /or looked at had a stove/fireplace or insert.
Maybe regional, no issues here. They prefer that the unit is not the sole heat source. Our "cover" is the Nat Gas furnace that has sat unused for the last 8 years.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

We have a sunken living room. Two steps, 15" or so. Never again. Margaret broke her ankle in three spots a few years ago when hiking. Used a walker for a bit. I moved that walker 100 times a day to get around it, always in the hall in front of the bathroom, or at the top of the steps. She tumbled into the living room one day having never used crutches on stairs before. She planted the crutches on the step and stepped down to the crutches. Then she took another step down without moving the crutches, and it pivoted her on her nose before her foot touched down. Go figure.
Narrow halls just a nuisance really. A three season porch is a must. We live out there in the summer, late evenings. All our meals. It wonderful.
It would be fun to do it over and build again, but we're spoiled in the spot we have.
Very difficult to move wood heat around. The radiant heat from a free standing stove is nice. If you have young grand kids around, maybe not. You have to teach them, but the real young ones you would need a kiddies guard or fence.
Symmetry or common sense?
We went to a kitchen cabinet shop and sat down with a woman. Salesperson, designer? She insisted on symmetry.
I said, no. Our kitchen sink centered on the three windows would have us looking into the mullion, the divider between the windows. I centered the larger sink basin on the center light. A light is a window(?). She also wanted equal cabinets on both sides of the stove top, and an oven underneath. That would leave an unusable counter space on one side close to the refrigerator. Simply stupid. And we chose a base cabinet with doors and drawers under the glass cook top. She wanted the oven there. Nope. Doors with drawers within is redundant, however the shelves are adjustable/flexable to your individual needs, where just drawers are not.
Lastly the wide isle way between counter and refrigerator. Note the refrigerator door hinges, thickness of door, and wall next to it with multiple light switches. The refrigerator door cantilevers, which I did not realize. The refrigerator should be, but can not be pushed back four or more inches. Opps. Did not catch that, but the extra wide isle still allows it to work, and two people can pass by there on occasion. The oven is under the counter, with raised counter for stools, not shown. Also, mixed color, white and black, appliances breaks it up.
Photos won't load. I'll try later.

 

[esean]

First things first - make sure your house is properly sealed and insulated first. The energy efficiency of typical new US home construction is absolutely terrible. I'm in USDA zone 6 and have tightly sealed R-26 walls and and an R-60 ceiling. Depending on where in Idaho you are (zones 3-7), you might need significantly more insulation. Don't use less, even if you're in zone 7. I've got a two story house, 1200 ft2 per floor. A single good-sized woodburner (Pacific Energy Alderlea T6) downstairs along an exterior wall evenly heats the entire house. It's a fairly open floor plan with a central stairwell, so convection is all that's needed to distribute the heat. In the summer a single small upstairs window A/C cools everything, though not to the walk-in cooler level some people like.

 

[stihlaficionado]

First things first - make sure your house is properly sealed and insulated first. The energy efficiency of typical new US home construction is absolutely terrible. I'm in USDA zone 6 and have tightly sealed R-26 walls and and an R-60 ceiling. Depending on where in Idaho you are (zones 3-7), you might need significantly more insulation. Don't use less, even if you're in zone 7. I've got a two story house, 1200 ft2 per floor. A single good-sized woodburner (Pacific Energy Alderlea T6) downstairs along an exterior wall evenly heats the entire house. It's a fairly open floor plan with a central stairwell, so convection is all that's needed to distribute the heat. In the summer a single small upstairs window A/C cools everything, though not to the walk-in cooler level some people like.

But will convection heat make it into closed bedrooms? I wouldn't think so. The other issue is the play area over the garage. This will require some good heat as the garage will not be heated.

 

[CaseyForrest]

Heat will move around as long as you give the cold air a way to get back to the source.

 

[esean]

My bedrooms stay warm even with the doors closed at night, but I've got single layer T&G plank floors upstairs, so that might help conduct some heat. Pay extra attention to air sealing between your garage and the rest of the house, especially the room over it. You don't want any air movement from the garage into the house.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

Heat the garage, and thank me later.

 

[stihlaficionado]

Heat the garage, and thank me later.

No can do, not in the cards.
A smaller garage that leads to a small workshop is planned behind the house

 

[NSMaple1]

You're talking mini-split heat pumps? Make sure you get the most efficient cold climate model you can. Emphasize R value and air sealing big time. I think if I was building new I would go double exterior wall with staggered studding. And if I was to have an unheated garage, I think it would have to be detached. Another mini-split in the garage would do wonders.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

We went to Parade of Homes for a couple years to get an idea of layouts, especially kitchens, but entries, driveways, etc.
A builder was showcasing his house. I said I was going to build ours. He said let me bit on it. I can do it cheaper because of the subs I work with over the years, and have it down pretty good.
I later gave him the floor plan. The foot print, layout, elevations, working drawings.
I gave him the spec sheet. What type insulation, what windows, ground source heat pump, what shingles, etc.

He gave me a very low bit indeed.
He changed 2" x 6" walls to 2" x 4". Changed artificial shake shingles, to three in ones. Changed ground source heat pump to air to air heat pump.

When I pointed out his cost cuts he just said you don't need all that. Heat pump change was several thousand alone, and would have never worked in our winter climate.

Create a spec sheet, and price out things that fall in an "allowance category" if any, like painting, like appliances, kitchen sink and faucet, bathroom fixtures, light fixtures, and carpet or wood flooring, even concrete for a driveway pad or apron in front of a garage. Eliminate as many 'allowances' by including specifics brands and model numbers.

When it came time to insulate, the guy on the job said he could not spray the skylight shafts with blown in. It has water and glue in it, in the cellulous (spelling). The skylight shafts were to close together and he could not get far enough away. It would get to wet and ball up. Of course the guy that bid it said, oh yeah, no problem. He was going to change to fiberglass bats. I said no way. We paid $200. each for three skylight shafts to spray foam. And it held up putting the ceiling in until they foamed the shafts. Your going to run into stuff to keep your eye on.

And have fun with it too...

 

[stihlaficionado]

You're talking mini-split heat pumps? Make sure you get the most efficient cold climate model you can. Emphasize R value and air sealing big time. I think if I was building new I would go double exterior wall with staggered studding. And if I was to have an unheated garage, I think it would have to be detached. Another mini-split in the garage would do wonders.

Can't do detached, not with 5 plus feet of snow on average every year.
The builder we chose does 3-4 homes a year & that's it. He does everything & farms zero out, no subs.
Currently a 2 year waiting list, so when we go out this fall & get the final architectural plans, we'll meet with the builder
and get cost estimates & "get on the list".

The only thing I'll have done by another crew is the installation of the fireplace/insert. I have already spoken to a local shop that sells
a number of brands & can install anything.

 

[CaseyForrest]

Have you considered having a masonry alcove built and setting a large woodstove in it?