Heat Pump Water Heaters - GE GeoSpring

[Marshy]

I just recently installed my third Geo water heater. This was a 50 gallon. Its a great idea but compared to the 40 gal gas it replaced, it doesn't keep up with a family of four. It just takes too long to recover between showers. Only during low usage times does it ever use just the pump. It's mostly going full bore trying to keep up during the morning showers. None of them have been even close to the first hour ratings. I think these are a great idea, just need more volume. Climate, environment conditions effect performance & recovery & mode of operation and at four or five times the cost of a standard electric water heater ( not including install cost) it will take decades to see any ROI. I think the second generation is better than the first, as they had a lot of problems with early units and the controller. The repairs aren't cheap either, if you can find a GE qualified tech. A 50 struggles to provide 2 8-10 minute showers within an hour, so they've had to spread out usage. The kids (girls) really don't like this. I'm scheduled to change out one of the three next week. Going with a Bradford white eF series high efficiency low NoX heater. Its just like having a window shaker AC unit in your house, good for summer but its a lot to reheat. That cost isn't anywhere in the calculations or expense of ownership. Its enuff to make the mechanical room pretty cool to cold. When the furnace turns on it takes a few before it stops blowing cold air. Good for summer tho. Overall I think they have their place in the market where no fuel is available. And or where usage is low. I would own one myself if electric was my only source.

Please provide a little more detail, which mode are you using when you say the recovery takes too long, I assume hybrid mode?
Where are they located and how warm is the ambient air the HP is working in?
Can you tell us more about the previous 2 you have owned why they were replaced?
Did you have issues with them?
Were they first or second generation models and why did you get a third one when you are indicating it does not meet your demands?

Also as i previously stated, the actual size is 45 gallons and if the tank was larger is would have a better 1 hour rating but slower recovery without a larger HP system as the heating elements dont kick on untill late in the first hour. The shower test is described in detail in the analysis I posted and I believe a 2 shower rating is a sound estimate... The GeoSpring does have two 4500 W elements in it but it only uses one at a time and never in conjunction with the HP. The 4500 W element is a very common size element for 50 gal electric DHW tanks. It does have limitations and according to a sizing chart I found 50-80 gal tanks are recomended for a family of 4. So, this is actually on the smaller side for a hosue of 4. In addition, you will never get any electric DHW tank to compete with an gas/oil DHW tank as gas typically offer way more heating capacity. A quick search for the tank you described (50 gal) says it is 40,000 Btu/hr, thats approximately equivalent to 11,700 watts, thats roughly 2.5 times the heating ability of the GeoSpring resistance elements!

Moving from a fuel oil boiler/indirect DHW tank to the GeoSpring is very easy for me to justify and very easy to get ROI due to the price of fuel oil. The price of natural gas makes the justification a little harder but I bet it would be in your favor if you actually put numbers on paper. Also, keep in mind the energy factor for that new gas DHW tank is 0.62 vice the GeoSpring which can easilly achieve 1.63... If natural gas prices become volatile like propane has recently then you might not actually be saving anything in the end...

BTW, a quick glance at the high efficiency heaters you described cost about $600. The GeoSpring is $1000 but still has the $300 fed tax credit so I think the extra $100 is justified and your ROI with the Nat Gas DHW tank might not be as good as you believer either if you have to pay an annual service fee for the burner. And I dont think anyone is going to take into consideration the cost of install because they will probably do it themselves, I know I am capable of running some wire and and adding a breaker to the pannel and sweating some copper.

 

[stihly dan]

I paid $950, Got $1000 from the elec co then $300 from gov. ROI instantly.

 

[Marshy]

I paid $950, Got $1000 from the elec co then $300 from gov. ROI instantly.

You luck dog you!

 

[StihlFroling]

I am a Mechanical Contractor, these were installed for customers unfortunately. All have NG available. Those stupid efficiency rating are exactly what made them buy also. None of them qualify for the $300 credit since they have already met their max write off. No other credits available here state or provider. Either way you look at in no way is an electric anything cheaper to heat water. It's all about how many gallons your household requires per day, not about how efficient or cheap the specifications claim it is to recover the tank itself(using a watt meter clearly shows this). Using a 2.5 gal shower head you only get 10 minutes and 48 seconds of tempered water to 12 min 13sec. By maxing out tank temp and using a mixing valve still the most you get is 15 min 22sec. A 40 gal gas does more. I know your trying to crunch numbers to justify your purchase as did my customers who are on the green energy fad. But when it comes down to real world usage and costs , it shows those label ratings are good for sales and lab tests only. And we haven't even got into the lifetime costs yet, your first pump will enlighten you quickly. While ten years is nothing for a gasser, even if you replace thermocouple, anode and relief valve every year, still cheaper. The first unit was just like the problems found on the geo reviews forum. Funny the customer only read all the good reviews, then when issues started popping up in just the first month , she read all the reviews. If anyone wants to buy a slightly used (less than a month) and in excellent condition GEO please contact. 2 available, 48306 area code. The owners aren't giving them away and the defunked one that needed all the repairs isn't for sale. I will be doing more as this particular subdivision all jumped on the band wagon at the assoc. Meeting. And I'm only 1 of 6 installing contractors.

Like I said, I like the geo a lot it's a great idea. I think it works for those who have electricity as their primary source. It is not cheaper than NG LP or fuel oil when equal amounts of water are calculated. If a 30 gas or 50 electric was never a problem for size then the 50geo will work also. I'm not your average tradesman. Infield tests and reporting are part of my job.

 

[StihlFroling]

I paid $950, Got $1000 from the elec co then $300 from gov. ROI instantly.

Wouldn't that be fraud to receive more tax payer money than you paid for the unit? By the way you never thanked your fellow citizens for paying your tab on your heater. Just like all of the green electric scam, its sooo good they have to pay you to buy it.

 

[firebrick43]

I have longer shower times out of my geospring, take a very hot 15-20 min shower every night. When you did your wattage measurement was it hybrid or hp only mode????

I don't doubt that a natural gas install would have cheaper operating cost do to the cost of fuel. But we are on a firewood forum and I am going to assume that 95% of us don't have NG available(I wouldn't burn if I had NG). LPs volatile cost However I would doubt it. Gas fired energy cost stickers are invalid to as they don't take heated air escaping up the flue unless it's a condensing unit which cost 2000$ if I recall. That heat loss adds 30% to the fuel cost. Again maybe acceptable with NG but not lp.

I understand 4 person households will have recovery time issues when they don't adjust their habits but there are smaller households with the geospring that don't. I know people that hate tankless heaters because they can shower, run the dishwasher, and washing machine all at the same time. Easy behavior modification would fix the problem but they refuse.

 

[Marshy]

I have longer shower times out of my geospring, take a very hot 15-20 min shower every night. When you did your wattage measurement was it hybrid or hp only mode????

I don't doubt that a natural gas install would have cheaper operating cost do to the cost of fuel. But we are on a firewood forum and I am going to assume that 95% of us don't have NG available(I wouldn't burn if I had NG). LPs volatile cost However I would doubt it. Gas fired energy cost stickers are invalid to as they don't take heated air escaping up the flue unless it's a condensing unit which cost 2000$ if I recall. That heat loss adds 30% to the fuel cost. Again maybe acceptable with NG but not lp.

I understand 4 person households will have recovery time issues when they don't adjust their habits but there are smaller households with the geospring that don't. I know people that hate tankless heaters because they can shower, run the dishwasher, and washing machine all at the same time. Easy behavior modification would fix the problem but they refuse.

Or Fuel oil! Thats why im making the switch to eletric from fuel oil, no NG.

StihlFroling, You still didnt answer all of my request for more info on how/where they GeoSprings were installed etc...
What was the location they were installed in and did they have enough space or ambient temperature to work correctly? Or were they thrown down in their hand dug basement where is never gets above 52*F?

Also, one can conclude they were all fools to run out and buy the heater soley based on the energy efficiency without understanding the capacity and drawbacks of the unit.

Theres no way you're going to convince me that the GeoSpring is not the most economically efficient DHW heater for my money based on my demands and fuel sources available, even compared to fuel oil. Unlike your costumers, I've done the recearch, looked the the lab assessment, made the time to understand its operating charastericts to make sure I can take advantage of the units HP. I doubt any of your 3 customers could tell you much about how the controls work let alone understand what happens in a refridgerent cycle.

I expect ambient temperature to be 80*F + through the winter and above 60*F during the rest of the year. I wish there was a report that asessed its abilities with those conditions...

 

[stihly dan]

Wouldn't that be fraud to receive more tax payer money than you paid for the unit? By the way you never thanked your fellow citizens for paying your tab on your heater. Just like all of the green electric scam, its sooo good they have to pay you to buy it.

NO! If the electric co says they will give me $1k to install one, Whats fraud about that. If the gov says if you put one of these in you get $300, just like any other citizen of the US would get. Elec Co gets more usage as I used oil before. They win No tax payer money there. $300 from gov is for anyone, and only 2.5% of what I GIVE them a yr. But I guess I could give it back so they can send it over to one of the stans.

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

I always thought these water heaters were the perfect compliment to wood furnaces or stoves in the basement. When i checked into them last year i discovered nobody sells them around here nor could i find anyone to install one. Apparently they arent carried past a certain latitude line in the US. I could order one and install it myself but nobody would service it if i did. I was told they just didnt work well with our cold winters. Im still interested but with the cost of the units i'd want to make damn sure they'd be a good fit before i laid out that kind of money.

 

[Marshy]

Just got a call today from the shipping company. Heater is expected to arive tomorrow between 2 and 4. I guess I better make a spot for it and start figuring out how I want to install it. The wifey has been keeping me busy installing new bath/light fictures etc, I havent quite figured it out yet... I will take some pics and stuff of it and my install.

 

[firebrick43]

To bad you live in New York or I would come over with my ratcheting copper pipe benders and expanders and help you with a first rate and classy plumbing job

 

[Marshy]

Well it's been a while guys but I finally made some progress on this water heater and will be ready to turn it on in another day or so. I will do more pictures and explain how I have it plumbed at another time... The reason it's taken me so long is I'm working 80 hours a week on nights and my wife decided it was a great time to paint a bathroom and install new fixtures and hardware in the full and half bath! Tryin to find time to work on the water heater took a back seat to those projects and making family time. Fortunately when the heater was dropped in my driveway on a pallet I had an old car hood and plenty of snow on the ground to slide this puppy down to the basement entrance. From there I wheeled it across the basement with a furniture dolly.

 

[Marshy]

Here is the final results. CPVC to plumb into the mains which still need insulating and I used flex conduit in blue straight up to a junction box for my 10-2 wire. You can see I added a second valve on the cold inlet side so I can preheat my incoming water with my wood stove and old indirect hot water tank. That side of the project is for another day... To the left of the water heater I have room for my med sized standup freezer, just need to run wire for a plug. Condensation line is going into a bucket for now until I get the proper size an length tube to run it to the floor drain in the background by my husky boots.


Now for the surprise. I decided to mount the heater about 4" away from the wall and make a cutout so the cold air is pushed into the other room of my basement. This will make sure no cold air is recirculating back to the inlet of the machine. I was thinking about making some sheet metal duct for it but the high quality cardboard the heater was shipped in made a really nice ridged duct that was easy to work with the hole is about 11"x11.5" and I cut the cardboard nice and tight so no fasteners are needed. I might pick up some thin foam stripping to put between the sheet metal of the water heater and the cardboard to seal it up air tight. I inspected the internal shroud the fan is mounted to and notice the factory used some thin foam strips to seal it up nice and tight internally so no cold air can recirculate back to the inlet side if you try to duct the exhaust similar to me. It shouldnt be an issue for me either way because I'm not creating a back pressure by trying to make it push the air and significant distance just directing it...


This gives you an idea of how my stove is oriented relative to the water heater. I threw up the box fan this year to try and remove heat from the stove pipe before losing it up the chimney because the stove and pipe ran so damn hot this year trying to keep up with the extremely cold temps I felt like I was contributing to global warming instead of heating my house. It also helps push the heat over to my stairwell and heat the north end if the house which is heated via convection and radiant floor just from the floors being so warm... In the bottom right you can see the old indirect water heater that is hooked to the oil boiler system that I will use in the future to preheat my incoming water. I only have about 6 ft if pipe and a valve to install on the domestic water side to make that connection. A lot more is required on the hydronic side as I will use the existing circ pump and need to make a heating coil for the stove and plumb everything...


Here's from the stove side in my man cave part of the basement. The good news is my man cave has air conditioning now.

 

[Marshy]

Later I will put a thermometer in the little duct and report back how cold the air is coming out of it. I would tell you its not nearly as cold as a window air conditioner nor does it seem to move as much air as my the 6k BTU window unit on low speed that I use upstairs in the summer...

Thoughts or comments/questions?

 

[CUCV]

I recently installed a 60 gallon unit. Just in case I plumbed it to my indirect existing 70 gallon tank with a timed circulation pump for extra capacity. That way I can run it full time in HP mode and never get complaints from the wife.

 

[Marshy]

I recently installed a 60 gallon unit. Just in case I plumbed it to my indirect existing 70 gallon tank with a timed circulation pump for extra capacity. That way I can run it full time in HP mode and never get complaints from the wife.

You got me thinking now about adding a line so I could also use the HP as a preheat to the indirect also. I dont know why I never thought of that honestly. Probably because I was focused on using a coil on the wood stove to perform that task and because I dont want to burn any oil at all if I can help it. I think it would be beneficial to be able to flip flop between the two especially this time of year when Im about done with firewood but still need heat so I dip into the oil... Thanks for the comments!

 

[NSMaple1]

Have you checked the hot-out line for warmth after a long period of no hot water use? Say first thing in the morning before anyone else gets up?

I'll be soldering a heat trap in to my hot-out line on my electric tank here in the next couple of weeks or so - even though there is some kind of flapper type one supposedly built in, heat still gets by it.

 

[Marshy]

Have you checked the hot-out line for warmth after a long period of no hot water use? Say first thing in the morning before anyone else gets up?

I'll be soldering a heat trap in to my hot-out line on my electric tank here in the next couple of weeks or so - even though there is some kind of flapper type one supposedly built in, heat still gets by it.

I will look into it. I have a meat thermometer I will slip in behind the insulation to check if Im losing my heat. I dont catch the thing cycling on very often at all when there is no damand... I didnt know anything about a heat trap until after I was finished and a friend asked about one. My other indirect DHW tank doesnt appear to have one either but Im not entirely suprised as the guy that built the house cut some corners where he could... Thanks for the comments.

I did measure the air temps into and out of the HP and found at air 70*F inlet it came out at 55*F. Nothing scientific about my meter, just a cheap'o walmart digital thingy with humidity display as well. Something was wanky with the humidity part because it actually went up in humidity on the exhaust side but I think I was getting some flow back from the room into the duct... Anyways, it seems to be working well and I have not had an issue with running out of water yet.

 

[Marshy]

So I've been using this for a few months now and it's still working great. Im interested to see if my electric bill drops any when I fire up the woodstove. I have the condensate draining into a small pail and have to empty about a gallon and a half every other day. I just was in Lowes yesterday and noticed they have these on sale for $699. Pisses me off because that 300 less than what I paid at the time, figures... If youve been on the fence about buying one nows a good time.

 

[wein]

what kinds of heat pumps do you use?