New CS Mill build

[Bongodrummer]

Hay guy,
So after the last fairly unsuccessful CSM build, I thought I would have a crack with some aluminium profile.
It's not finished yet but though some of you might have some feedback/ ideas.

I am using 40x40mm profile with an 8mm slot. I was all set for trimming it down with the alu cutting blade on the mitre saw, but as it is it arrived exactly the lengths I specified and perfectly square ends so no need.

View attachment 292859

Making 90 degree connections, I use what they call a 'standard' connector, which slides in the t-slot. A bolt goes through this and into a tapped hole in the end of the profile. I used the lathe to tap the threads exactly central and straight, it's very quick that way too

View attachment 292861

So here is the general layout. The handle is just propped up resting on some little noggins in the pic... Am waiting on some t-nuts I ordered to get it fully setup. Adjusting it should be easy with the slots. Now it is together the general frame feels very stiff (possibly overkill) and has a reasonable weight to it.

View attachment 292864

The vertical height adjustment bars are keyed into the frame like so...

View attachment 292867

As you see, I cut a little bit of oak to make the bars run parallel to those upright stubs. I am going to reinforce the stubs with some 90 degree bracket elbow things - to ensure they stay perpendicular to the frame.

Anyway, just thought some of you guys might be interested enough to give me some suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes when I finally get it together.

 

[flashhole]

Looks like an interesting project. Do you plan to weld the pieces that have permanent joints or just leave them bolted together?

 

[Bongodrummer]

Thanks. Just leave them bolted with some locktite - I have a decent MIG but am not setup for welding alu. But I also think part of the attraction of this set-up is the ability to strip it back to component parts very easily and make modifications, or even repurpose the bits for something completely different if it doesn't work out. Like I said, the frame feels pretty darn rigid so I'm not to worried on that front...

 

[PhilB]

It's looking good. I used similar extruded aluminum in my build, only English measurements. See my signature if your interested in mine. I would check with the supplier if you want to weld the aluminum. Not all aluminum alloys can be welded. I once tried to weld some unknown aluminum. Welds looked good but I could break the weld with no effort. Again nice start.

Phil

 

[smuzz]

Looks good I've been buying up pieces on flee bay when cheap as well as raiding the scrap piles at industries I do some work for as well think I've got most of the pieces will assembly mine soon but using english version to not that makes a difference. I'm working on coming up with enough pieces to build a router plane for slabs with same stuff... I too think these are good because of adaptability to different situations. Think I'm going to try the round tube stanchions for the down tubes though for speed of changing height though might not be as strong as your design.

Anyways looks good!

 

[BobL]

. . . .Anyway, just thought some of you guys might be interested enough to give me some suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes when I finally get it together.

It's probably too late but If you are making your own CSM and it looks like you have the wherewithal, I really recommend a design whereby the mill bolts to the bar bolts. This designs give you a slightly wider cut and puts the powerhead closer to the log for better overall balance. If you are crafty there are designed that enable the chain to still be removed without removing the saw from the mill. Have a look at some of my sig links for ideas.

 

[Bongodrummer]

It's probably too late but If you are making your own CSM and it looks like you have the wherewithal, I really recommend a design whereby the mill bolts to the bar bolts. This designs give you a slightly wider cut and puts the powerhead closer to the log for better overall balance. If you are crafty there are designed that enable the chain to still be removed without removing the saw from the mill. Have a look at some of my sig links for ideas.

Hay Bob, yep - taking inspiration from you, the plan was to just simply bolt through the guide bar to those vertical height adjusting bars (they have a long 8mm thread tapped in the end). Have already drilled the GB ready....

In terms of the chain on-offing I am finding it quite a tricky compromise between getting the inboard vertical bar positioned as close to the powerhead as possible but still leaving room to slacken the chain so I can get it off. I thought I had it perfect, then I put a new chain on that was quite a bit shorter :msp_scared:

Getting there. I just hope the few little bits holding me up will arrive soon.

Smuzz, yeah its great stuff. Nice application a router plane for slabs, would be interested to see....
I wasn't aware there was an 'English version'? I think I have what people seem to call the 'Item' stuff, differences?
I want to raid some of the skips your finding!

 

[Bongodrummer]

So just to report back... Got the mill out for the first time today and had a go at an ash log and so far so good! :msp_biggrin:

Here's our low key transport setup - the mill seems to go on the front rack,with a little foam under it, quite well, and I can see it there so know it hasn't bounced off or anything.

Milling went well, the blade was behaving this time - no trying to dive into the cut or anything like that. There was a fair bit of vibration coming up through the mill (but I don't really have anything to compare that too, so it could be normal. I guess aluminium transmits vibs quite well and isnt very damping. Either way the quality of the cut was good...

I am using an MS440, and at times it felt a little under powered. I guess that's to be expected? I am running it a bit rich about 40:1, and tuned with the H-screw to run at about 12,000rpm chain on but not cutting WOT. That sound about right? The service manual recommends 13.500rpm max for the 440.

The sycamore log you can see in the background above is next up.. I just got the ladder all setup ready before it started getting dark today... Interesting I cut into it to trim it down to mill capacity with the same saw and chain I was milling with (its a standard 30degree job), and look at the difference in shavings (sycamore in my hand):

So yeah, Ill make a few tweaks to the mill (some inner tube round the handle for one I thing and thinking about mounting the tachometer somewhere so I can see it as I mill - any tips?) and have a crack at the sycamore tomorrow...

Taking the ash away was interesting - 3.7m long and 2"thick these things were quite heavy to shift about on my own - good exercise, and probably the most dangerous part of the day

 

[Bongodrummer]

Ok so as I said I would, I attacked the much bigger Sycamore log, with the same chain and setup. What gives - when the saw is on the mill the sycamore is giving off much smaller dustier sawdust, not the nice long ribbons i was getting when I was freehand cutting it to fit the mill the other day???

The other thing was just the time it was taking on the sycamore - the planks were about 50cm (20") wide and a shade under 4m long. I was having to refuel the 440 mid cut with each plank - normal???

Heres a few pics. The last one is where the inner height adjustment clamping bolt rattled loose on the last cut of the day, I didn't notice and the saw wandered down :bang: Guess I can fix it using the ladder next time... Any good suggestions for eeking out more power from this saw? Am running a 30" GB so have about 25" capacity with the mil, at a guess. Am running rapeseed oil - would an aux oiler help much?

 

[BobL]

Ok so as I said I would, I attacked the much bigger Sycamore log, with the same chain and setup. What gives - when the saw is on the mill the sycamore is giving off much smaller dustier sawdust, not the nice long ribbons i was getting when I was freehand cutting it to fit the mill the other day??? The other thing was just the time it was taking on the sycamore - the planks were about 50cm (20") wide and a shade under 4m long. I was having to refuel the 440 mid cut with each plank - normal???

So you are getting about 10 sq ft of cut with one tank? This is well below what I would expect from that saw. I suspect your chain is not set up right - hence all the fine dust. Post a close up photo of the two sides of a cutter directly from side on and lets see what they look like.

Heres a few pics. The last one is where the inner height adjustment clamping bolt rattled loose on the last cut of the day, I didn't notice and the saw wandered down :bang: Guess I can fix it using the ladder next time... Any good suggestions for eeking out more power from this saw?

I'd say you are at the limit with this saw but I don't think your problems are all saw realted.

Am running a 30" GB so have about 25" capacity with the mil, at a guess. Am running rapeseed oil - would an aux oiler help much?

I would not be using canola oil in a saw -if it polymerizes (goes tacky then solid) it will seriously gunk up the oil pump something horrible. It is OK in an Aux oiler.

 

[SDB777]

The difference in 'chip size' looks to be nothing more then crosscutting equals 'dust' and maybe you were free-handing through a crotch or something and got some 'noodles'-cutting with the grain?



Cool set-up! More photo's!!!





Scott (looking forward to seeing more cuttings from ya) B

 

[Bongodrummer]

Thanks for the reply guys,
I will get a pic of the cutters on Monday when I am back there, I live elsewhere from Friday - Sunday.
I have been using a quite new Stihl crosscut chain 3/8" 1.6 mm (.063). I have been giving it a touch up (3 strokes on each tooth) with a file between each board.

Bob, I work it out to be more like 15 sq feet, roughly, though I am guessing that's still somewhat below what it should be fuel wise? Can get a better estimate when I am back there and measure the slabs.

I would not be using canola oil in a saw -if it polymerizes (goes tacky then solid) it will seriously gunk up the oil pump something horrible. It is OK in an Aux oiler.

I thought I was onto a good thing with that, it being about 1/5 the price here... What about alternating it with 'proper' stuff, and ensuring you finish up the day with commercial chain oil? You say its ok for an aux oiler - would you recommend one on that size bar (30")

SDB777, not sure I understand - I though rip cutting gave more stringy long 'noodles' than cross cutting? I was getting the long noodles consistently when I was, sota half rip cutting the branch stubs down off the log - Same chain - but much earlier in the day - so perhaps my sharpening regime wasn't sufficient? I don't have many more photos yet - but here's the progress so far (took me best part of a day to clear important 'junk' to make space in the barn for the slabs. Almost certainly not stickered regularly enough (who knows how often I should support them with 2" thick slabs?) but I was in a hurry to finish before the weekend... The bottom three are ash, top three sycamore. I have the top and bottom pieces of the ash outside still - they are quite substantial - and I would like to use them for something more than firewood (maybe an outside bench or something)...

@PhilB - I checked out your double ended mill... Very nice :msp_thumbup: . Did you find adding that bar stiffener plate make much difference to the vibs?

I have quite a few more logs to have a go at, mostly ash, including a pretty monster one, so thinking about improvements...

 

[PhilB]

@PhilB - I checked out your double ended mill... Very nice :msp_thumbup: . Did you find adding that bar stiffener plate make much difference to the vibs?

Thanks. The bar stiffener took all the vibs out.

 

[BobL]

Bob, I work it out to be more like 15 sq feet, roughly, though I am guessing that's still somewhat below what it should be fuel wise? Can get a better estimate when I am back there and measure the slabs.

Your post says 20" (1.5 ft) wide and 4m (or 12 ft) long and you said you were getting half way down and needing to refuel?
1.5 x 12 * 0.5 = 9 ft

[Canola]I thought I was onto a good thing with that, it being about 1/5 the price here... What about alternating it with 'proper' stuff, and ensuring you finish up the day with commercial chain oil? You say its ok for an aux oiler - would you recommend one on that size bar (30")

I guess you could alternate but as it is rare to completely run an oil tank dry there would always be some in there.
I use an aux oiler even with even a 16" bar.

SDB777, not sure I understand - I though rip cutting gave more stringy long 'noodles' than cross cutting? I was getting the long noodles consistently when I was, sota half rip cutting the branch stubs down off the log - Same chain - but much earlier in the day - so perhaps my sharpening regime wasn't sufficient?

SDB777 is at least partially right. There is a confusion about the cutting action of milling chains. It's called ripping chain but in true ripping the cutting action is a shallow diagonal across and along fibres, like a wood plane and this makes shavings or noodles. The cutting action of chain when milling is not like this at all, instead the top plate of cutters have to cut or tear directly across or thru the grain - this is much harder and this will make dust - think about how hard it is for a plane to make shavings when planing end grain . When cross cutting the side plate is the one cutting across the grain but the top plate can more easily penetrate in between the fibres and tear out the fibres. A wood plane analogy is not 100% right either. You need to remember that apart from when the chain is noodling, CS chain does a lot of tearing - this is why chains make such a mess when they contact human flesh!

A freshly sharpened chain with cutter and raker angles set correctly should still make some chips but always make some dust.

I don't have many more photos yet - but here's the progress so far (took me best part of a day to clear important 'junk' to make space in the barn for the slabs. Almost certainly not stickered regularly enough (who knows how often I should support them with 2" thick slabs?) but I was in a hurry to finish before the weekend...

Yep, I would recommend doubling the number of stickers and include one at the each ends.

BTW I went back into your thread a found this.

I am using an MS440, and at times it felt a little under powered. I guess that's to be expected? I am running it a bit rich about 40:1, and tuned with the H-screw to run at about 12,000rpm chain on but not cutting WOT. That sound about right? The service manual recommends 13.500rpm max for the 440.

I see 2 things here.
1) The fuel gas/lube mix ratio has very little to do with richness. Richness is the gas/air ratio.
Technically speaking if you drop the gas/lube ratio this leans the gas/air ratio but the gas/lube ratio would need to be changed significantly to make a real difference to the gas/air ratio. This was more of a problem when gas/lube ratios of around 16:1 were being used.

2) If the service manual says 13500 rpm then detuning with the H screw to 12000 will make the mix too rich. With the 880 I detuned by 500 rpm (12000 down to 11500) and with the 441 I detune it by 650 rpm. At 12000 the 440 will be very rich and partially explain the high fuel use and lack of power thereby making more dust

 

[Stu in Tokyo]

Great info Bob!

Bongodrummer, here is a video of a guy ripping a log.....
[video=youtube;GNhbcNfrnWs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNhbcNfrnWs[/video]
You can see some big noodles doing this.

This is NOT the same as milling, when you mill you cut the ends of the grain off. Imagine that you have a a brush, you are slicing off the ends of the brush, this will ONLY give you dust. Of course with wet wood the dust is not so dusty, with dry wood, the dust is really dusty, and it sucks to be down wind!

The ripping chain does not cut any faster, sadly, than regular crosscut chain, but the finish on the wood is MUCH smoother and it is usually a little easier on the saw to move the ripping chain through the log than the cross cut chain. If you are using an underpowered saw you can also make a skip chain. What you do is remove the top cutter from say every third tooth, this will give you say 8 cutters out of 12, which should lessen the strain on the saw by a fair bit, it will again be slower, as you are pulling fewer cutters across the wood, but it will be easier on your saw. If you are not on the clock, and you are doing this when you have the time etc, then take it slow, don't burn out your saw!

Don't forget the more oil you add to your gas/oil mix the leaner the saw will run, as the oil takes up space that was gasoline and the oil is just there as a lube, it does not combust providing power. a 40:1 mix is richer than a 32:1 mix.

One last thing, try to set your logs up so that the starting end is higher than the finish end, let Mr. Gravity give your mill a push, this can really make a big difference, trust me!. You can make a decent tripod out of three pipes and a small hand winch, you can pick up the end of most logs, put them on a notched short log under one end, then drive a stake in the ground at the low end and put a wedge on either side of the low end so the log does not roll. I've found this makes running a mill a lot more pleasant.

Good luck, looks good so far!

Oh, one more thing, I'd remove the bark from your slabs, between the bark and the wood is where the bugs will live and eat your wood, take the bark off and save yourself this headache!

Cheers!

 

[BobL]

. . . . . If you are using an underpowered saw you can also make a skip chain. What you do is remove the top cutter from say every third tooth, this will give you say 8 cutters out of 12, . . . .

Just be a bit careful about what cutters are removed - if they are not removed in a pattern that leaves an equal number of evenly distributed Left hand and Right hand cutters on the chain it will not cut straight.

 

[Bongodrummer]

Hi Guys, thanks again for your thoughtful feedback :msp_thumbup:
I have managed to injure my leg on Saturday, so I'm not going to make it to the farm today, so the chain pics etc will have to wait a bit. On the plus side I feel like I have learned a lot. Stu, reading your post and watching the vid, it finally clicked - of course when I was cutting down rather than along I was getting noodles. For someone that has done a fair bit of woodwork, I don't know why on earth I didn't intuitively know that - I guess the whole cutting straightlines with a chainsaw is kinda new to me, but still :redface:

So reading your posts the things to do:

1. Re-tune H screw so it is about 500rpm less than factory, so 13,000rpm for my ms440.
2. Change to 50:1 mix instead of the 40:1 I have been using. But see question below...
3. Fab an aux oiler.
4. Get some more 'proper' bar oil to alternate and finish up the day with in the saw (I'm thinking last couple of tanks should be enough to dilute the canola oil and get the good stuff through the pump).
5. Fab a stiffening plate like PhillB's for the GB mill joint area to help with the vibs.
6. Improve the vertical adjustment clamping - I don't want another bolt coming loose and cut wandering incident.
7. Double the number of stickers in the store and de-bark remaining side (I had been de-barking the side opposite to the powerhead before milling to try and keep the chain sharp).
8. Get a close up pic of the chain cutter for the experts her to examine


@Bob your maths were spot on, Its just that I didn't make the info clear enough sorry - I was having to re-fuel mid cut - but probably about 3/4 of the way along the log...

Ok so I now get that 40:1 is actually going to be leaner than 50:1. But my question about it remains - just because we call it leaner wouldn't 40:1 still be kinder to the engine than 50:1, as it would have more lubricity (I think that's a word?)?
The other thing I am wondering is how often I should stop to let the saw cool? As it is I have been stopping to let the saw idle for about 1min say every 1/4 log length. Am I overdoing it? After all each time I stop, I have the potential for adding in more uneven gouge lines... Really appreciate you excellent feedback so far guy, thanks!

 

[BobL]

Ok so I now get that 40:1 is actually going to be leaner than 50:1. But my question about it remains - just because we call it leaner wouldn't 40:1 still be kinder to the engine than 50:1, as it would have more lubricity (I think that's a word?)?

If someone asks me what they should use then I always say use what the manufacturer recommends. Modern saws will even run safely and mill all day on fully synthetic lube at much higher ratios - one reason the manufacturers don't recommend this is because the margin of error for mixing a standard gallon container of mix goes up exponentially with higher mix ratios. That's one aspect - the other aspect is using more 2 stroke lube, because as we all know, "more is always better"? My take on this is that all this does is fog the air around the operator with more gunk. Modern 2 stroke lube is a marvellous concoction of smoke suppression agents and other additives which don't burn but effectively mask visible smoke. I think the less of this there is around the operator the better. The reason I use 40:1 is because that is the recommendation for my 076 is 40:1 and as my other saws run fine on this it saves me having 2 different mixes around although I use the 076 so rarely now I might just make the 40:1 up when I need it.

The other thing I am wondering is how often I should stop to let the saw cool? As it is I have been stopping to let the saw idle for about 1min say every 1/4 log length. Am I overdoing it? After all each time I stop, I have the potential for adding in more uneven gouge lines... Really appreciate you excellent feedback so far guy, thanks!

Provided the chain is kept sharp, well tuned etc and all the other milling planets are aligned you do not need to let the saw cool mid cut. A modern saw is designed to run WOT for about 2000 hours before it needs an overhaul - the key here is WOT. The time to implement some sort of cool down if you are going to turn the saw off especially after the end of long/wide cuts. If you are going to let the saw idle and just move the cut piece and then start cutting again then I would not bother doing a cool down.

 

[Old Blue]

Since Bob didn't say it i will.

Look at all that sexy aly.

Nice mill dude! Looks like your doing great. Thanks for all the pics!

Old Blue
At the center of tax, license, fee, registration and beaurocratic hell.
Kali-bone-ya

 

[Bongodrummer]

Thanks guys.

I still have a bad knee, so not much progress here. But here's the pics of the chain.. It has come pretty much straight from the cut, so no shiny filed bits.

Looking at it from the top it looks like I have been filing at a lower angle more like 20 than 35 - I had in mind that I would slowly convert this to a ripping chain - (maybe it doesn't work like that without a grinder to do the job?) I was giving it a few strokes of the file at the current angle, to get the whole surface shiny metal, then giving a last couple of strokes at the lower angle like 20ish, to get closer to a rip profile. A mistake?