Newb grinder open to advice

[OLD MAN GRINDER]

Sorry Old Man. I ground twelve ten inch stumps last Friday with my 252 in an hour. I was asked to leave the holes open and the chips where they lay, so I told him I'd take fifty off . $450 cash in hand and he wants me back to do five more. I am looking at twenty next week that should pull $600 or so. I am def not bragging, but at this rate I will have to get another grinder.


Greenteeth are awesome and disconnect the autosweep.

Good for u, that would be about a 160.00 job down here, if u are thinking about a new grinder check out the bandit 2150xp with the 38 hp kohler, it doubled my production over the 252..

Bob...

 

[husabud]

Thanks Bob. Stumps were supposed to be a sideline, but all the other dingbats around here think they should get like $15/inch. I got this 03 four months ago for $4500 and have almost paid for it on rain days when I cannot climb. I thought a close retired friend was going to do it, but shoulder surgery prevailed. Ah well a buck is a buck!

 

[capecodtree]

stumps

Ground the biggest stump I've ever done the other day with my rayco super junior (green teeth), took me five hours. It was an oak about 5' across, some rot. I got $450. I got $2,800, osterville, to take the tree down, it took about seven hours. I view stump grinding as a pita, but it completes the "tree service".

 

[husabud]

I agree! One of the main reason I bought it in the first place. Osterville is nice for $$. Workin a little toward Chatham myself. BTW that lead never called. Thanks though.

 

[tree md]

I did one yesterday that was right at 36" just above the root flare (my36" bar barely got through the last cut). It had been partially escavated and the sod had been cut out in about a 20'x20 area. Had to chase large roots out in every direction. Root flare was exposed and everything had to be at least 4" below grade so they could lay new sod. Had to have a small machine to get into it in the back though a 36" gate. Gas line was in close proximity, that's why the contractor could not bring in large equipment to escavate. Did it for $450. My groundy had it done in 2 hours. Thankfully it was old and rotten.[/QUOTE

Hey Tree Md..

I have found it quicker on the large stumps to grind out the root flares up to the
base of tree first and then use the saw to cut the stump down low, it also gets u
into cleaner wood with the saw and doesn't dull the chain as quick, saves on the
grinder and not so many chips, learned a lot of tricks when i had my 252 that
save me a lot of time now with my 2150, hyd steering helps LOL..

Bob...

I'll have to give that a try. It was an old stump that was left a little high on a tree I had not cut. I just whacked off a 6" slab just above the flare to cut down on some of the grinding for my groundy. I left all the wood and mulch there. I have no idea if he chased the roots out first or not. I just got him started and moved on to another job. I had three jobs sites going at once yesterday. To tell the truth, I bid that job for an hour longer than it took my guy to complete it. Just got lucky with it being rotten and easy to grind. $450 stumps are few and far between for me. I will usually sub something that big out but figured I could do it OK with my machine. Plus the contractor told me to go ahead and name my price for it and just get it done. Still tried to treat him fair.

My small engine guy is trying to get me to buy the new Khoeler oil as well. That's why I was asking about oil.

 

[imagineero]

Shaun, I am curious what brand and weight oil you are using in your Kohler?

The oil debate is endless. To me, the brand and viscosity matter less than the interval. I use the same stuff I put in my car, truck and motorbike... It's nothing special, castrol 'modern engine' and from memory I think it's 15w40 or something like that. I don't buy cheap crap but I don't think synthetic is worth the high price tag. I'd rather buy mid priced oil and change more often. I don't buy miracle oils, oils with sludge protection, oils with an extremely wide viscosity range (too many viscosity modifiers equals less oil), oils with teflon, oils that stick etc etc... Just a good basic oil. I buy it when it's on special and buy a lot.

I do the oil and filter on my 20hp kohler commander at 50 hour intervals. It only takes half a gallon from memory and with oil and filter that adds up to about $12. I expect to get about 700-1000 hours out of my engine (I bought new and don't slay it) and when it lets go I'll put in a 27hp. I've allowed money for the engine replacement cost in my $60/hour running cost. Below is how I arrived at the $60/hour rate;

$4.30/hr for engine ($3000 for new engine, some belts and fitting /700hrs =$4.30)
$3.30/hr for teeth ($100/set and get 50 hours out of a set with sharpening, conservatively estimated 30hrs)
$2/hr for sharpening (8-10 hrs between sharpens, $20/sharpen)
$10/hr for fuel (a bit high, but I use premium no ethanol)
$10/hr for damage (100hrs = I can be covered for $1000 worth of damage to pipes, windows etc)
$2/hr for chains and tools (pretty self explanatory)
$4/hr general maintenance (tyres, switches, belts,oil, filers etc)
$20/hr wages for operator
$5/hr depreciation

Depreciation is the hardest one to figure. The machine was $18k new. After 1000 hours I can re-power with the money put aside for an engine replacement, and all the ongoing costs of the machine and damage I may cause won't be coming out of the profit. When it's getting up close to 2000 hours the machine really won't be worth much at all. Maybe a few thousand if you're lucky. That 'depreciation' money will have added up to about $10k by then, which when put together with a few thousand from the machine sale should come close to a new machine.

Most guys just don't figure the real cost of operating. If you don't allow for things (especially depreciation) then you are basically stealing money from yourself. You borrow money to buy the machine (from yourself, or from a bank), you need to pay that money back... and all that money comes out of the 'profit'. There are idiots out there grinding stumps for less than their true running costs over time. Its no wonder they are always short of cash when it comes time to repair/replace, even though they think they made good cash off it because they put some cash in their pocket that day. They don't realise the cash they put in their pocket is just being 'borrowed' from the cost of running the business, which they will have to 'pay back' to the business later on out of their own pocket.

Another interesting aside is the issue of insurance. Stump grinding isn't covered under my public liability, it's classed as 'excavation' which needs a seperate and expensive policy. Even if I had the excavation policy, the excess is $1000 which means for the type of damage I generally do I'd still be out of pocket. Many stump grinders don't carry any insurance which is an issue I'll leave aside. I'm primarily in the tree game. Most stump grinders in australia have their clients sign a waiver stating something to the effect that since there are no plans for services, unless the client can locate and identify services the grinder will not cover damages. They also put something in there about how services should be buried more than 12" under (a myth, no such law exists) and that they do not grind more than 12". Many guys really won't pay for damage they cause. Naturally, they have a hard time getting paid when they cause damage.

Last year, my guys hit 2 water pipes, one telephone cable, a stormwater pipe and cracked one window. They're fairly careful, but as noted there are no plans available execept for public services. On private property there are no records. We identify meters and take a best guess, manually excavate if there looks to be a hazzard but things happen.

This year I started offering my customers 'insurance'. I tell them about how we cant identify the services and nobody can. I tell them that damage isn't covered. I then offer them insurance for an extra $10. Almost every customer this year jumped on it. They love it. I put the $10 in the insurance fund (a big money box) and still take care. This year we've hit one phone cable so far. I'm coming out well ahead, and my customers are happy. I'm basically self-insuring. Only a few customers have said no. If anything happened, I think I'd probably still repair it at my cost... Would sure generate some good will.

Shaun

 

[KnotPro]

clean up

A lot of people want to know what will happen with the left over pile of chips. Some come right out and say clean it up. Honestly, sub the clean up out to a pro.

A) its a pain
B) the shear volume of chips is astonishing. I could not believe that a 20"er could produce that much in chips.

 

[BC WetCoast]

A lot of people want to know what will happen with the left over pile of chips. Some come right out and say clean it up. Honestly, sub the clean up out to a pro.

A) its a pain
B) the shear volume of chips is astonishing. I could not believe that a 20"er could produce that much in chips.

For any stump larger than about 12" I have found that it takes just as long to haul the mulch as it does to grind the stump. Hence, I bid the mulch removal separately and charge about the same as the grinding.

As for pricing, we don't travel for free. It will cost about $125 for me to show up at your door. That's our minimum charge for any stump that will take an hour or less (including travel time).

 

[imagineero]

Nobody I know removes the spoil. I'm upfront with customers about this issue at the time of quoting because many people aren't aware how much spoil will be generated, or think that there will be clean soil when we're done. I've never considered quoting on it, I just don't think I'd be making any money.

Shaun

 

[2treeornot2tree]

Exmark has some new oil out thats synstic. Its a dual grade too. It is a SAE 30, and a 10w-30 oil. It seems to work really well, and i have been using it it all my small engines since it came out. It doesnt cost that much more either. I change the oil in my stumper every 100 hours. The air filter gets blown out after every job, and replaced often. One thing i was considering doing, was to put a air dust seperator on the air intake instead of that stupid down turned hose thats on it now. I think this would cut out alot of the dust from going into the air filter. My chipper has one on it and it seems to work great.

 

[KnotPro]

Nobody I know removes the spoil. I'm upfront with customers about this issue at the time of quoting because many people aren't aware how much spoil will be generated, or think that there will be clean soil when we're done. I've never considered quoting on it, I just don't think I'd be making any money.

Shaun

I never wanted to do the clean up either, but my dad said "It ain't gonna be that bad". From past experiense whenever he says tht, It is far worse than it is. Fast forward a few years and we now sub our clean up. For whats it's worth, there is a company by us that does it all. Tree removal right through clean up of the spoils. They even go as far as hauling in the dirt to back fill the hole. They have the equipment though, and the corner on about every landscaping/snow plowing market in my town.

 

[OLD MAN GRINDER]

Nobody I know removes the spoil. I'm upfront with customers about this issue at the time of quoting because many people aren't aware how much spoil will be generated, or think that there will be clean soil when we're done. I've never considered quoting on it, I just don't think I'd be making any money.

Shaun

Same thing here shaun, i tell them upfront how much chips they will have, and that it
makes good mulch for their beds, i have done thousands of stumps and never once have
had a customer that wanted them hauled off, my wife spreads chips out and makes the
job look good when we leave and no problems, i better knock on wood LOL..

Bob..

 

[imagineero]

The most I've ever done (once) is dump and spread about 10cubes of mulch over about 20 stumps. The only thing I hate more than grinding stumps is spreading mulch. The customer took out a bunch of awful trees - privets and camphor laurels mostly. The garden beds looked a mess after. We didnt charge her for the mulch, just labor to spread it. Looked pretty good once the mulch was spread out over the spoil, and she re-planted her own plants later.

I'm sure there some money to be had in doing the whole 'makeover' thing, but its starting to get into gardening/landscaping which isn't our core business. There are so many guys out there doing that, their labour, equipment and insurance costs are so much lower. I don't think I could compete even if I wanted to, and I really don't want to ;-) Trees is what we do. Stumps are a necessary evil but I'd rather not do them at all.

Shaun

 

[ropensaddle]

Well 252 brings back memories of which I enjoyed forgetting Honestly if your doing the occasional stumps they are fine machines for that but on big stumps the grindings will need moved out of the way or you will end up missing stump material and have unhappy customer. I sold mine because here stumps are too cheap and we have the worst rock imaginable. from granite to quartz etc> rock grows here lol. I was getting routine calls for 40 and 50 stumps and the small machines though can do it are not efficient doing them. I decided to buy my tow behind and will never look back. My best day was 128 stumps a feat not remotely possible with the 252 in the size stumps I was in. Anyway point I'm making is if your doing routine quantity stumping you likely will be doing mucho maintenence.

 

[KnotPro]

Well 252 brings back memories of which I enjoyed forgetting Honestly if your doing the occasional stumps they are fine machines for that but on big stumps the grindings will need moved out of the way or you will end up missing stump material and have unhappy customer. I sold mine because here stumps are too cheap and we have the worst rock imaginable. from granite to quartz etc> rock grows here lol. I was getting routine calls for 40 and 50 stumps and the small machines though can do it are not efficient doing them. I decided to buy my tow behind and will never look back. My best day was 128 stumps a feat not remotely possible with the 252 in the size stumps I was in. Anyway point I'm making is if your doing routine quantity stumping you likely will be doing mucho maintenence.

I'm with you on that one. I hated our 252 to the core of my being. We moved to a 852 and we love it.

 

[no tree to big]

we clean up every single stump we grind unless its in an area thats about to get dug for construction there are some days we come back with 15-20 yards of grindings... fun stuff

 

[superjunior]

removing grindings sucks.. I write on the estimate "grindings raked back over hole unless otherwise specified". Removing the grindings is way more work then grinding the stump..

Got a job lined up at a school down the street, a little clearing job in the woods, they're building a pavillion. All stumps have to be ground deep and the grindings removed. Probably around 20 yards to pull out of there. Got a price from a buddy to bring in a skid and truck all the grindings out. I'll still make $$ subbing that out to him, I'm not geared up for that..

 

[mckeetree]

I'm with you on that one. I hated our 252 to the core of my being. We moved to a 852 and we love it.

I bought a bunch of junk from an old friend that was retiring mainly because I got railroaded into it. One thing in the deal was a 252 (along with a 222). That little machine really is not big enough for anything but "around the house."