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We're trying to push the lid off this economic coffin and the gov keeps putting nails in the lid. Smart real smart.
 
but... but... indigenous mollusks... habitat... studies have shown...

Yeah, I'll go dig out my "This Home Supported By Timber Dollars" sign right now, just in case.If we gotta go on lockdown over slugs, I may very well laugh myself comatose.
 
After the Bald Eagle got saved, the ESA has never been strictly about species protection.

Whoever the next president is needs to give the ESA a serious reform. Pronto.
 
You'd best add Congress into that statement too. That makes it even less likely to be changed.

I don't use salt. I use the grass shears. Can't we eat the snails? We may need to. Trying to not get political, as I am labeled an evil liberal, but I can't believe we still have a budget for this kind of stuff.

The Center for Biological Diversity started out as two guys in New Mexico who were pretty much destitute. They were the Southwest Center for Biological Diversity. They've grown it into a big organization.

These are the folks who manage the National Forests now.
 
Yes. The Fish and Wildlife folks have been sued in the past for not considering all the nominated species. Budget and time were their defense. I cannot remember the outcome. I believe nobody won. Think of the dollars......:angry:
 
We've got two butterflies, a frog, a toad, and a handful of plants staring us down. We await the verdict from USFWS as to whether we have to do any major policy revisions. We've also got state-listed candidates, mostly prairie and oak woodland dwellers, to further complicate things. Fortunately, we have a "Spotted Owl Plan" dating from 1992 that will serve as a boilerplate format for future listings. I hasten to note that we don't have now, and likely never did have, any spotted owls at all on our property. However, we were deemed a "critical corridor" for populations passing between the Cascades and the Olympics. Oddly, the restrictions placed on us resulted in significant refinement of our forest management strategy, and as a result, we can clearly demonstrate healthier forests today than before the restrictions imposed by the owl, with no lost timber revenue. If anything, our forests are more profitable due to FSC certification, which was driven at least in part by the owl plan.

In short: if we can do it without major paperwork hassles, I'm all for saving the endangered whatever-of-the-day, but I'm not into spinning my wheels over unquantifiable benefits. The ESA is a powerful tool for enacting anti-industrial policies, which, even with the best of intentions, often hurt more than they harm. It should be no surprise that corporations are farming their work out to overseas factories. The ESA and other similar laws have pretty much forced that move.
 
Question.

:hmm3grin2orange:

If all the snails and slugs have to be counted and tracked how are we going to keep the count accurate?

I mean, every snail and slug looks pretty much the same to me and probably to most other people, too. How will we know that we haven't missed a few or counted the same ones more than once?

Will we have to tag each individual slug with a number? Put a little brand mark on the snail's shell? Color-coded spray paint? Bar codes? Will we have to identify slug family groups and special snail breeding areas? How would you tag a slug, anyway? Maybe implant a chip like they do with dogs or prize cattle?

And how about tracking devices? We have to establish what their range is in order to prohibit disturbance to their habitat. The transmitters would have to be really really small and keeping them on the slugs might be a problem. I vote for thumbtacks but it might not be a popular choice.

I see a whole new industry arising from this. Instead of going to the woods with my saws, tools, and big yellow machinery I could downsize and just carry a little note pad, a bar code reader, some spray paint, and several itty bitty tracking devices. And some really tiny batteries. I could sell my pickup and buy a Prius. I could wear sandals instead of Wescos. I could throw away all my white Ox gloves and invest in some super-soft moleskin ones. I wouldn't need stagged off jeans and 'spenders anymore... they might mark me as a former logger and send some of the Slug Accountability Team into raging hissy fits. I could sleep late every morning...no need to rush out there, the snails aren't going anywhere. And since slugs and snails reproduce we'd have a new sustainable resource to keep track of. Instead of charting tree growth I could keep track of snail morbidity. I wouldn't have to hang around the saw shop anymore either. Instead, I could go to a fern bar with my co-workers and we could tell each other stories about wrangling slugs..."yup he was a tough little guy, damn near three inches long and feisty as hell. I had to chase him for over a yard. He almost got away a couple of times but I managed to over power him and get the bar code pasted on his slimy little hide. Hey barkeep...another round of those drinks with the fruit stuck to the rim of the glass and little umbrellas in them please."

Or, on second thought, if someone asked me what I did for a living I'd probably tell them I was third assistant lump skimmer down at the sewer plant. More prestige.
 
The ESA (as Jameson stated) is now a political tool used by Enviro Wackos to undermine industries and control people thru legislating from the Judicial Branch. Amongst the funny (painfully funny) things here, are:

#1 -- The Judicial was never intended to legislate, and when they do, there are no checks and balances to ward them off.
#2 -- These Enviro groups use tactics parallel to those used by the Nazi Party. . . Not cool.
#3 -- The outcome of the ESA decisions are usually more harmful to critters, definitely harmful to people and industry, and more often times than not -- nature decides what's going down anyway. Then when the Greenies efforts are shown to be fruitless (or really bad), they counter with "It would have worked, but we weren't allowed to do it quick enough."

Take "Global Warming" for example. They totally got called out on that one, and proved to be way off base. . . So what do they do? They slyly change the wording to "Global Climate Change" and pretend that's what they called it from the beginning. The genius in the word change, is they'll be right no matter what. If it rains, Global Climate Change, if it doesn't rain, Global Climate Change.

Now, do snails go with Red or White wine?
 
Gologit said:
:hmm3grin2orange:

If all the snails and slugs have to be counted and tracked how are we going to keep the count accurate?

I mean, every snail and slug looks pretty much the same to me and probably to most other people, too. How will we know that we haven't missed a few or counted the same ones more than once?

Will we have to tag each individual slug with a number? Put a little brand mark on the snail's shell? Color-coded spray paint? Bar codes? Will we have to identify slug family groups and special snail breeding areas? How would you tag a slug, anyway? Maybe implant a chip like they do with dogs or prize cattle?

And how about tracking devices? We have to establish what their range is in order to prohibit disturbance to their habitat. The transmitters would have to be really really small and keeping them on the slugs might be a problem. I vote for thumbtacks but it might not be a popular choice.

I see a whole new industry arising from this. Instead of going to the woods with my saws, tools, and big yellow machinery I could downsize and just carry a little note pad, a bar code reader, some spray paint, and several itty bitty tracking devices. And some really tiny batteries. I could sell my pickup and buy a Prius. I could wear sandals instead of Wescos. I could throw away all my white Ox gloves and invest in some super-soft moleskin ones. I wouldn't need stagged off jeans and 'spenders anymore... they might mark me as a former logger and send some of the Slug Accountability Team into raging hissy fits. I could sleep late every morning...no need to rush out there, the snails aren't going anywhere. And since slugs and snails reproduce we'd have a new sustainable resource to keep track of. Instead of charting tree growth I could keep track of snail morbidity. I wouldn't have to hang around the saw shop anymore either. Instead, I could go to a fern bar with my co-workers and we could tell each other stories about wrangling slugs..."yup he was a tough little guy, damn near three inches long and feisty as hell. I had to chase him for over a yard. He almost got away a couple of times but I managed to over power him and get the bar code pasted on his slimy little hide. Hey barkeep...another round of those drinks with the fruit stuck to the rim of the glass and little umbrellas in them please."

Or, on second thought, if someone asked me what I did for a living I'd probably tell them I was third assistant lump skimmer down at the sewer plant. More prestige.
Click to expand...

Ohhhhh. . . Is this a bad time to mention that I burned alive a **** load of slugs in mah burn pile last night? It's not like I didn't make it fair -- I announced loudly over the pile that there would be a burn in 30 minutes, and they had as much time to pack up and move out. :laugh:
 
The Mole in my yard is eating all these slugs!

They are welcome to come and get rid of my Mole, then there will be more slugs and then no problem! (They can also take the slugs and "relocate" them. Perhaps they would like them in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service yard?)
 
Gologit said:
:hmm3grin2orange:

If all the snails and slugs have to be counted and tracked how are we going to keep the count accurate?

I mean, every snail and slug looks pretty much the same to me and probably to most other people, too. How will we know that we haven't missed a few or counted the same ones more than once?

Will we have to tag each individual slug with a number? Put a little brand mark on the snail's shell? Color-coded spray paint? Bar codes? Will we have to identify slug family groups and special snail breeding areas? How would you tag a slug, anyway? Maybe implant a chip like they do with dogs or prize cattle?

And how about tracking devices? We have to establish what their range is in order to prohibit disturbance to their habitat. The transmitters would have to be really really small and keeping them on the slugs might be a problem. I vote for thumbtacks but it might not be a popular choice.

I see a whole new industry arising from this. Instead of going to the woods with my saws, tools, and big yellow machinery I could downsize and just carry a little note pad, a bar code reader, some spray paint, and several itty bitty tracking devices. And some really tiny batteries. I could sell my pickup and buy a Prius. I could wear sandals instead of Wescos. I could throw away all my white Ox gloves and invest in some super-soft moleskin ones. I wouldn't need stagged off jeans and 'spenders anymore... they might mark me as a former logger and send some of the Slug Accountability Team into raging hissy fits. I could sleep late every morning...no need to rush out there, the snails aren't going anywhere. And since slugs and snails reproduce we'd have a new sustainable resource to keep track of. Instead of charting tree growth I could keep track of snail morbidity. I wouldn't have to hang around the saw shop anymore either. Instead, I could go to a fern bar with my co-workers and we could tell each other stories about wrangling slugs..."yup he was a tough little guy, damn near three inches long and feisty as hell. I had to chase him for over a yard. He almost got away a couple of times but I managed to over power him and get the bar code pasted on his slimy little hide. Hey barkeep...another round of those drinks with the fruit stuck to the rim of the glass and little umbrellas in them please."

Or, on second thought, if someone asked me what I did for a living I'd probably tell them I was third assistant lump skimmer down at the sewer plant. More prestige.
Click to expand...

:hmm3grin2orange:

Good to see ya been taking your Meds. :laugh:
 
Metals406 said:
I think that's in Bob's Will. . . "If I ever do this. . . Take me out to pasture and put me down." :hmm3grin2orange:
Click to expand...

Well, that got me all wound up for a great, high paying, low hours, outside job, only in good weather, that would be great for extra bucks in 'retirement'. Tried to find an opening on US Census site, but no luck. Maybe they'll post some openings tonite. :laugh:
 

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