Of what good use is a BCMA

[xtremetrees]

In 10 years I'll still be wrinting about trees sharing the dangers preventing accidents and generally posting pics just like the last 10 years of my life.
Now comes along a new inbention BCMA.
What is the ISA NRA or who ever decides the function of this new acredidation. The best example of quality safety conscous treemen are the english chaps, there are no BCMA from england there should be.

Its sad that the Europeans are leading us Americans in ethics and proper tree pratices. Have they ever spoken at a OSHA gathering? Do BCMA's even represent climbers and those who have gone before



In our industry tree workers are dropping like flies, on a given day in any given shop here in Atl production climber average 7-10 dead tree climbs a week. Are the BCNA working to stop this money grubbing greedy treeco owners

 

[Ekka]

Is that BCMA as in the qualification ISA has called Board Certified Master Arborist?

If so, I dont understand what you are on about. It's just another qualification.

Hows that going to affect things?

Being a higher qualified arbo, like Guy, should get you better jobs and clients.

It's no secret and myself, Guy etc wont hide the fact that if you mainly do take downs you'll always be competing with the chit!

Slowly skill up and educate up to get the jobs that the rednecks hanging off poulans cant do .... change your ways.

I know I'm gonna give it a serious go coz we have cowboy county here where even the govt tops trees and every man and his dog hacks them.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

In our industry tree workers are dropping like flies, on a given day in any given shop here in Atl production climber average 7-10 dead tree climbs a week. Are the BCNA working to stop this money grubbing greedy treeco owners

Wow, did you go to bed last night? That rant was so incohearent.

Like our friend from Oz stated, it's from the ISA as in International Soc. of Arb. It will be available troughout the world.

What does it do for you?

Board Ceritfied
Master Arborist

I think the name says it all.

As for the hacks, they will allways be with us. There are enough jobs around that do not need skills. Especially in a high growth area where trees are dieing from development.

 

[begleytree]

I feel like it's in the same boat as the reg isa cert. in some areas it is worth a gold mine, and in others, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. My area is the latter, around here, a college degree is what matters. every profession has their credentials, ie, master framer, master plumber, ect.
IMO, if you have no degree, work towards that and forget the bcma. if you have a degree, why not add to it with the bcma?
Around here, the isa cert is considered merely a trimming certification, not a knowledge certification. a quick browse of the tested domains would seem to justify that assumption.
I won't say my isa certification was of no benifit, but if was not if the benefit it was touted to be. It was overhyped for my area (college town).
-Ralph

 

[treeseer]

Around here, the isa cert is considered merely a trimming certification, not a knowledge certification. a quick browse of the tested domains would seem to justify that assumption.

Ralph there are 12 domains, only one of which is pruning. ?

i'm in a college town and certification is high-profile. To build bridges with the colleges around here I've taken some courses and volunteered, and later got in to lecture and instruct. that got me their respect even tho I got no durn dee-gree.

A colleague is getting his forestry degree, tho he's a good arborist. He's wasting a lot of time and $, imnsvho.

 

[clearance]

It's no secret and myself, Guy etc wont hide the fact that if you mainly do take downs you'll always be competing with the chit!

Slowly skill up and educate up to get the jobs that the rednecks hanging off poulans cant do .... change your ways.

I know I'm gonna give it a serious go coz we have cowboy county here where

Ekka, your self rightous, aggrandizing and elitist tone is starting to really annoy me. Who died and made you God? Chit, redneck, cowboy, doing take downs? Some takedowns are not so easy, in fact some of them, like big scummy trees over high voltage are beyond some here, way beyond. I could slag guys wearing funny little outfits spurless climbing with handsaws ******* out trees, taking off branches the size of my fingers, but why? I climb to preserve trees in the bush, around creeks and wildlife areas, I climb big trees and top them, prune off some branches, so they don't blow over in storms. Do I deserve the insults as well?

 

[begleytree]

i'm in a college town and certification is high-profile.

in some areas it is worth a gold mine, and in others, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

A colleague is getting his forestry degree, tho he's a good arborist. He's wasting a lot of time and $, imnsvho.

I do believe this is the first time I ever saw you advocating against furthering your education.
Are you now saying that the BCMA is worth more than a college degree?
What ever happened to the idea that the isa certification was a
'first step' a 'starting point' on the road to your education?

Guy, sometimes I think you need to pay a spomsors fee to post here, you are a huge advocate of ISA! Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I disagree with the idea that a true college degree is worth less than a ocupational certification. imo, thats what the isa cert is.
We are in a unique position where we can further ourselves via a college degree and a certification. Why limit ourselves to just one or the other?
-Ralph

 

[treeseer]

I disagree with the idea that a true college degree is worth less than a ocupational certification.

I disagree with that too. That would be a nutty thing to say. The guy who is getting a forestry degree is pushing 60 and has no goal of getting a forestry job; that's why it's nuts for him imnsvho. The same guy let his cert lapse for lack of ceu's, but still sold himself as cert. I had to report his dumb butt. So there's a little vestigial attitude there I admit.

I think college booklearning is very useful. I've done a lot of it, and I'm not through with it either. But it's only half the puzzle; you gotta balance that with field learning. Right?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I think college booklearning is very useful. I've done a lot of it, and I'm not through with it either.

63 years young to boot.

 

[Mike Barcaskey]

Would you agree....
an ISA Certified Arborist who keeps up on his CEUs and works at learning more is worth alot more than the college graduate in Forestry or Arbor who hasn't done anything to increase his knowledge in say, the last 5 years.

I believe a Penn State Forestry Degree has 12 Forestry classes, maybe 1-1/2 years worth. The rest of the degree is non-major or non-college.
IMO a degree matters for the first few years after graduation, after that work experience, certifications and MS or PHD matters.

I have several engineer graduate buddies, 10 years after graduation and the only thing that mattered was a PE or Industry Cert.


PSU Graduate 1985

 

[beowulf343]

It's no secret and myself, Guy etc wont hide the fact that if you mainly do take downs you'll always be competing with the chit!

Slowly skill up and educate up to get the jobs that the rednecks hanging off poulans cant do .... change your ways.

Whoa Ekka, you calling me "chit" because I do primarily takedowns? This piece of "chit" makes six figures a year doing takedowns. And why am I doing all these takedowns when there are so many ca's around? Because they call me in to do them! I always thought it was because the ca's were too scared to even attempt them but now I see it is because they don't want to be associated with the "chitty" takedown men. Besides, I have seen many instances of "rednecks" attempting to TRIM trees. But you get a big tree leaning out over a house, they usually leave it for the pro (I mean the piece of "chit.")

Oh, I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't even be posting with all you great and mighty treemen. I've only taken down thousands of trees over every imaginable structure (including power lines) with no loss of life or any property damage more serious than a few divots on the lawn, yet I'm considered "chit."

 

[Ekka]

Do I deserve the insults as well?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe you are a certified ROW guy, doing a type of apprenticeship not 1 day course.

You have a priority of keeping the juice flowing etc, that's the focus.

I'm surprised you threw yourself into the hack bucket, now hop out of there and lets see some sensible chat.

I'm sure you would be (as I've seen) pretty pissed off if Joe Hack and his Poulan starting clearing the 110kv lines without training.

As for some of the other guys getting up in arms .... yes, you are continually price pressured with uncertified guys and noobs to the industry with little skills. If you predominantly do take downs they are your competitors like it or not.

But if you do other tree work, including report writing, decompaction, pesticides etc you have less competitors and those competitors may have to be qualified or licenced. Of course this may depend on your local regs too.

For example, Mary wants a 75' tree taken down, gets 3 quotes, all insured and takes the cheapest. The cheapest gives the same result, gets 18 yo workers from Walmart but she dont care.

But Mary also has a 200 year old protected veteran oak that is showing some decline, now will she call the same guys who only own chainsaws? Or will she call some-one who is a lot more knowledge-able? Maybe the regs will insist a minimum grade qualification with report and rec for works as they do here on protected species.

So that's the difference, by the way, there's nothing stopping an over certified guy doing a TD but sometimes vice versa is not possible. It would then be prudent to increase your education level .... which is not gonna hurt your reputation is it?

 

[Doctor Dave]

Ekka, your self rightous, aggrandizing and elitist tone is starting to really annoy me. Who died and made you God? Chit, redneck, cowboy, doing take downs? Some takedowns are not so easy, in fact some of them, like big scummy trees over high voltage are beyond some here, way beyond. I could slag guys wearing funny little outfits spurless climbing with handsaws ******* out trees, taking off branches the size of my fingers, but why? I climb to preserve trees in the bush, around creeks and wildlife areas, I climb big trees and top them, prune off some branches, so they don't blow over in storms. Do I deserve the insults as well?

Do you top trees in leave strips around streams and wetlands? I could see how that would reduce blowdown. Of course, if the leave trees on a logging show were the fattest, dominant trees, they wouldn't blow down.

Have you gotten into making wildlife trees? I knew a guy who would shorten snags for safety, but also cut wholes in sound trees. He also experimented with putting in plugs of wood colonized by heart-rot fungi, to make green hollow trees. The objective was to get cavity nesting birds, flying squirrels, and bats into young stands that didn't have cull trees.

 

[jonseredbred]

all the cert.s in the world dont matter if you dont have experience. Ekka does have a point that some of you missed, but "Mary" doesnt exist in all markets. Wanna know how many root excavations or any type of tree surgery or report writing I have sold in 20 yrs.? Less than $5,000.00 worth.

Beowolf is right on, my tree company does the hard work that the ca's wimp out on. A couple of ca's in my area have the worse loss ratio's I know of.

They wont spike a trim but they will crash it through a porch and say oh well, this is what insurance is for.

 

[treeseer]

Wanna know how many root excavations or any type of tree surgery or report writing I have sold in 20 yrs.? Less than $5,000.00 worth.

But the next 20 years could be a whole new ball game if you want to promote and market those services. Of course, if you want to focus on removals with your 20-year-older body, and your town running out of big trees, and more and cheaper labor flooding in over the border to undercut your prices, that's your call. :help:

A couple of ca's in my area have the worse loss ratio's I know of.
They wont spike a trim but they will crash it through a porch and say oh well, this is what insurance is for.

And there are 100's of ca's who are just as careful as you are. Neither of us knows enough to make any generalizations here do we?:deadhorse:

 

[jonseredbred]

we DO promote those services, it is the market that lacks. Experience the economy in NY lately?

No, I cant make bold generalizations on all CA's, just the ones I compete with, they are no better than some of the hacks.........plus I just like to antagonize some of the guys who sometimes post some elitist opinions on.

I am going to sit for my CA test this spring, but unfortunately, here in WNY it doesnt mean much at all.

 

[clearance]

Do you top trees in leave strips around streams and wetlands? I could see how that would reduce blowdown. Of course, if the leave trees on a logging show were the fattest, dominant trees, they wouldn't blow down.

Have you gotten into making wildlife trees? I knew a guy who would shorten snags for safety, but also cut wholes in sound trees. He also experimented with putting in plugs of wood colonized by heart-rot fungi, to make green hollow trees. The objective was to get cavity nesting birds, flying squirrels, and bats into young stands that didn't have cull trees.

We top all the trees along the edge, about 60' into the standing wood. Where there are creeks, usually the biggest trees grow besides them, we top these, there is no cherry pick logging, the leave strip is left alone. The biggest trees, those that stand above get blown down if not topped, it gets real windy here. I have made wildlife trees in second growth stands in city parks, no need in old growth, already there. Ekka, I have met ISA guys who can't climb, don't even look like they could start a big saw without decomp, useless in the real world of work, great in the office, I guess. So, whats your point? And yeah, I'll fire up the 394 and saw down that old oak for Mary if she ponies up some decent jake.

 

[squisher]

Leave trees on a logging show? The leave trees are all of the ones outside of the block. These are the trees that Clearance is working on. Nothing is left inside the block except slash. And yes I've seen it first hand lots. Probably every tree that clearance is spiking up, topping and trimming he's saving which might be contrary to what most think but those big guys just blow right over once they're exposed. The bush is completely different then residential unless it's a removal then it's very similar what is the safest most efficient way to get these trees down and out of here.

And what my post has to do with the topic of this thread? I'm not sure but removals are probably 80% of what I do and I am still studying towards becoming a certified arb (not even dreaming of bcma) because learning stuff is cool. It makes you smart.

 

[Ekka]

Removals are probably about 90% of what we do too.

But what I have noticed over the last 10 years is that there is 3 times the amount of competitors. The volume of "hacks" and "hacking" is going thru the roof and the prices are the same if not lower than 5 years ago.

Now if you're real good at what you do, dont bust anything, and are credible then you shouldn't be considering yourself a hack. But you sure as hell need to be cheap to now!

My original line was that if you mainly do take downs then you'll always be competing with chit. Skill up means just that, take on the harder tougher taller trees that the hacks may shy away from or educate up to do other work. I stand fast on this.

There's no shortage of chit bosses with no idea bang a crew together and get a climber. Bosses bidding jobs with no idea and then the climber turns up scratching his head wondering how to make money for the guy coz the the boss seriously underbid.

Did you miss Treeminators thread of the ficus? What about the thread on undercutting?

Whilst everyones pond is different and market forces may vary the lower skilled and knowledgable noobs will generally be doing TD's coz they dont know how to prune, how to treat etc.

In my pond the opportunity for "other" tree work is scarce too, but I either keep competing against hacks or try to do something different and bring that 90/10 ratio to maybe 60/40.

 

[xtremetrees]

Well, I dont know but I think the testing process for BCMA will take more than the year it took me for C.A. Probably test for 2 or 3 years.:bang:
Ive got about 1.5 yrs and my C.A. will expire. I agree with most that dudes get it only to market. Most of the C.A. in my area push buckets thats ok if they dont spike trims but they do. Some have even said they wouldnt do a job unless it was a 5000 $ day. Maybe the C.A. pushed them into a volume of trees so it was good.

I know several guys that regulary make over 1 m a year and have let their C.A. lapse. Why did we loose them and why arent they reaching for BCMA?
I think its because maybe time maybe greed. Its less profitable in the short run to do what a C.A. is. Will it be even less profitable to be BCMA?
This is becomming a riches to rags story lol:hmm3grin2orange:
It shouldnt be this way now but the way I see it it is.
Are BCMA's guest speakers at industry gatherings?
We have to create our own future with this new acreditation. We are all we have so we must depend on ourselves to do this.

Should a BCMA automaticlly qualify for ROE clearance supervisory jobs ie. manageing 5000 miles of powerline with no previous experience? I think they should.

Should BCMA automatically qualify for municipal or city arborist with no experience yes I think they should.

BCMA should be next to GOD. Now it is little more than a voluenteer at a homeless shelter.

What I'm asking is down the road how would they function? What is our vision of BCMA in the future. Should they be botanist or scientist?

I think our industry is divided and uneducated about this.

There has been some discussion on the market for BCMA. That the economy may not support this type or level of compentence. Will in 10 years there be a market for this. Where is our industry going with it.?