Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 - Results & Info condensed

[redbull660]

I'm condensing some of the results, stats, and discussion I had with belray so you don't have to dig through through (currently 58 pages of the other thread)

there is some awesome non biased info in the emails between belray and I, starting on post # 3.


----------------------------
- special thanks to Trx250r180 for providing some H1R.

- Method (cuz someone will ask)...

1. start with 50:1 stihl ultra in tank + bar + used chain.
2. make some cuts to warm up saw
3. take bar off, clean grooves in bar, put new .404 RS chain on.
4. start saw, check tension, retension.
5. clean air filter, top off 50:1 gas, top off oil. start saw
6. do cotton wood test cut, turn off saw, hurriedly grab camera and thermo, take temps
7. restart saw to keep warm. grab camera, thermo, running saw...walk over to other log.
8. do 2nd cut, turn off saw, hurriedly grab camera and thermo take temps.

9. now dump out 50:1 gas completely back into gas can
10. fill up with 40:1 gas
11. do cuts with old chain to get 40:1 gas into the system.
12. shut off saw, clean air filter, top off 40:1 gas, Top off oil.
13. take old chain off, take bar off, clean bar grooves, put on new chain for 40:1 test cut.
14. start saw, check tension, retension, start saw do 40:1 cuts....repeat repeat repeat. Every test was done exactly like the above.








few things...

- not what I expected!

- Both Stihl 50:1 & 40:1, seem to start off cooler (after 1 cut) , but then gets approx 10-15 F hotter than belray 50:1 and 42:1 on the 2nd cuts. While the belray 50:1 and 42:1 seem to get to temp faster but basically it stays at that temp. I like this about belray.

- I'd have to say based on the #s 32:1 just doesn't seem to work as good in a stock saw. Maybe it works better in a ported saw because of the higher compression? But a drop of 3-4 secs vs 42:1 and temps creeping up, that's pretty clear if you ask me. As to Why it worked out this way? I don't know...there is a happy medium of oil and gas in every 2 cycle and for this particular saw, 32:1 H1R isn't it!. Maybe the 661 was designed around 50:1?

- On the 2nd cut with the belray 50:1 I had a good 3 second hang up so that is why I put 32.8. So it appears that belray 50:1 and stihl 50:1 were the fastest. But I'd take the belray (even though I think it smells! lol). Based on what I've read and the specs of H1R vs Stihl ultra, I have little doubt that the Belray wouldn't provide better lube/maintaining the oil film.

- The 40:1 Stihl was clearly slower but ran same temps.

- Based on the results -

I'm thinking Belray H1R 45:1 would be interesting to try out. Maybe Stihl 50:1 vs belray 50:1 vs belray 45:1 with more cuts. Stihl just to compare. I'm sold on the belray. Question for me is the ratio. 45:1 looks like a happy medium and you can split the bottle in 3 equal parts (125ml/4.25oz) and it make 45:1 = 1.5 gal.


Here are the numbers laid out.

 

[redbull660]

oil info... make up, viscosity, flash point



Stihl Ultra - http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
Base Oil: Trimethylolpropane ComplexEster 80-90%
additive mixture - 0-20%

Flash point 432F
Visc @40c = 49
Visc @ 100c = 8.5
------------------

Husky - http://www.husqvarna.com/ddoc/huse/huse2010_euenapen/huse2010_euenapen_cms-s002_.pdf
Highly refined Mineral Oil - greater than 40%
distillate (petroleum) - 15-25%
polyolefin phenol - greater than 5%

Flash Point - 167F
Visc @ 40C = 48
Visc @ 100c = unknown
----------------------------------

Yamalube - https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf

additive mixture = 16-20%
Pour Depressant mixture = <.5%
Solvent = 10-15%
Base Oil = 54-75%
Blue Dye = <.5%

Flash Point = 255F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 8.5
------------------------------

Klotz R50 - https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/MSDS/MSDS-2014-KL-102.pdf

"Not applicable" ???????

Flash Point = 550F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 19.1
------------------------------

Motul 710 2T - http://www.motovan.com/img/marketing/pdf/Motul/MSDS eng/710 2T.pdf
https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/38/710 2T (GB).pdf?1324312083

Naphtha petroleum hydrotreated - less than 30%

nothing else shown

Flash Point - 190 F
Visc @ 40c = 46
Visc @ 100c = 8.9
------------------------------------


Motul 800 2t OFF road - https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77816/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420014

msds - http://www.quickfds.com/out/17287-57965-18051-016468.pdf

Polyamine Succinimide - 2.5 - 10%
2,6-DI-TERT-BUTYLPHENOL 0-2.5%
Alkarylsulfonate - 0-2.5%

Flash point = 485F
Visc @ 40c = 120
Visc @ 100c = 15.5


----------------------------------------


Belray H1R - http://www.belray.com/sites/default...ter 2t engine oil item 99280 us_english_0.pdf

http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-h1-r-racing-100-synthetic-ester-2t-engine-oil


"This product considered not hazardous..."

note - contacted belray for approx make up
base oil: Proprietary Ester blend = ~90%
additive mixture = ~10%

Flash Point = 395F
Visc @ 40c = 121
Visc @ 100c = 12.4
-----------------------------------------

Amsoil - http://www.amsoil.com/msds/atp.pdf
Synthetic Ester = 30-60%
Butnene homopolymer - 30-60%
Solvent naphtha = 10-30%
n,n di sec butylphenylenediamine .1%

Flash Point = 216F
Visc @ 40c = 71
Visc @ 100c = 11.1
-----------------------------

Lucus - http://lucasoil.com/pdf/SDS_2-Cycle-Snowmobile-Oil.pdf

Solvent naphtha petroleum = 10-30%
1 decene, homopolymer hydyrogenated = 10-30%

doesn't show anything else.

Flash Point = 175F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 7.5
--------------------------------

Maxima K2 - http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2.pdf
http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/

Synthetic Ester Base Stock = 65-75%
Solvent Naphtha = 5-10%
Polybutene = 5-15%
Multi functional additive mixture = 5-15%

Flash Point = 240F
Visc @ 40C = 97
Visc @ 100c= 13.6
---------------------------------

Maxima 927 - http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Castor 927.pdf
http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/

modified fatty acid ester = <50% "fatty acid ester"? LOL
castor Oil = 50-70%
additive mixture = 10-20%

Flash Point = 420F
Visc @ 40c = 133
Visc @ 100c = 13.8
-------------------------------------

Woodland Pro synthetic- http://www.baileysonline.com/msds_sheets/PDFs/wp_synthetic.pdf
performance additive = 5-12%
high flash solvent = 22-27%
base oil - synthetic = 45-57%
Blue Dye = ~ .5%
Low smoke additive = 30-40%
fuel stabilizer - less than 2%

Flash Point = 210F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 7.2
--------------------------------------

Shindaiwa red armor - http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03

Polybutene = 15-40%
Proprietary Ester = 10-30%
Distillates (petroleum) = 10-30%
Highly refined petroleum lubricant oils = 10-30%
Hydrocarbyl amine = 7-13%
alkyl imidazoline = 1-5%
Alkarylamine = less than 2%
Solvent naphta = less than 2%

Flash Point = 163F
Visc @ 40c = 64
Visc @ 100c = 10.3
-----------------------------------------

Schaffer's - http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/248-9006-msds.pdf

Complex mixture of Synthetic Base oils = 10-90%
proprietary additives = <15%


Flash point = 187F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = unknown
----------------------------------------

 

[redbull660]

Had a nice long discussion with Belray Tech. The tech guy Andrew is awesome. I don't see what it could hurt posting it. So it's a long read but, pretty interesting and informative at least for me.

And i have to read through it again and digest and figure out some more questions.


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Redbull660 -

Hello, My friend (heavy into motocross) swears by your products. Wondering if you carry anything that would be good for my Stihl 661 91cc 7hp chainsaw?

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BelRay -

We have many customers of ours using the H1-R ester 2-stroke oil in their chainsaws and other gas powered tools with a lot of success. That would definitely be my first recommendation for your Stihl. Its full name is H1-R 100% Full Synthetic Ester 2T Engine Oil, item number 99280. You can mix that at Stihl's recommended mix ratio, but if you see excess oil coming from the exhaust you may be able to switch to a leaner oil mixture over time for a cleaner burn. If you have any additional questions, let me know.

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Redbull660 -

So H1R ok. I'll pick some up. So stihl says like 50:1 in all their saws with their Stihl ultra synthetic 2 stroke oil. Would you start out that lean with the H1R? A little searching...I see a guy who has a ported MS661 (91cc) and runs your H1R at 32:1 ratio with 92 ethanol free gas. But with the porting he's running around 205-215psi compression. I think a stock MS661 ie. what I"m using is more around 170psi. I'm assuming that would make a difference?

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Belray -
Based on that, I would suggest starting at 40:1 or 42:1 for normal use. I'm not sure how you are running the saw though, so if you are taking on some heavy pieces that you are running the throttle wide open for longer periods of time than average use, then the 32:1 might be the better way to go. The only thing that too much oil might do is foul a spark plug. So if you want to start at 32:1 and work your way up to the "sweet spot" ratio that might be a good idea.

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Redbull660 -

I'll try 32:1 and 42:! and see what happens. My friend has a thermo gun (measure the cyl temp after the cuts) and I can do some long timed cuts with a 41" bar.

btw - I'm switching because I'm pissed that even when I tried the Stihl ultra syn at 45:1 and then 40:1 I still had hard black carbon build up on the piston head. My friend thinks with the Belray I won't be seeing any more build up? Maybe it has something to do with flash point? which has me asking this - Could you tell me a little about the importance of the flash point? I see the flash point on the H1R is 395F while I looked up the flash point on the Stihl ultra syn 2 cyl - at 222 F. Quite the difference. http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf


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Belray -

The flash point does have to do with combustion but there are more important properties that contribute to carbon buildup. The H1-R should give you a much cleaner burn and result in far less buildup than the Stihl oil. The biggest factor in this is the base fluid. Because H1-R is made with all ester base fluids it burns very cleanly. The residue left behind after burning this type of fluid is almost negligible when actually burned where petroleum and some other types of synthetic oils will leave carbon deposits and ash when burned.
The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.

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Redbull660 -

Very interesting!

ok so I gotta ask...how would a low flash point affect the octane rating vs a high flash point temp?
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Belray -

If the flash point is too high and the oil is able to interrupt the gasoline's combustion, you can have decreased combustion efficiency due to a portion of it being less flammable. If you have a very low flash point it can result in increased combustion, but you are sacrificing lubrication by doing so since your lubricant is burning off before it even reaches the piston. There is a balance point that is necessary to not effect the combustion but still make the lubricant robust enough to reach the surfaces.

Due to one of the certifications our H1-R carries, which is specified for Kart racing, we have tested the effect of H1-R on the octane rating of gasoline. There are two different testing protocols called the motor octane number (MON) and the research octane number (RON). The MON for H1-R is 0.2 increase in 86 octane fuel and the research octane rating is a change of 0 in 96 octane fuel.


The flash point only refers to a single measurement point where the vapors reach a combustible limit under special circumstances. It is used as a reference for general safety of transport and gives a general idea of the volatility of oils.

The H1-R does burn over time, which is what you want or else your crankcase would just fill with oil and overflow into the cylinder. Your mix ratio is set so that you should be introducing fresh oil at an equivalent rate to the burn rate of the oil in the case and cylinder.

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Redbull660

well that makes a lot of sense.

hmm. This seems obvious. But i'll ask anyway... Well...

could you talk about how the combustion would change if one went from H1R 92
eth free 32:1 to say 50:1 ? what are the basic things that would happen
if you did that?

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Belray -

Going from a leaner oil ratio to a richer oil mixture just increases the amount of oil you are pumping into the combustion chamber. If you are running too rich you have excess oil that will just come in and go right out in the exhaust. It might also lower the power in the engine by just bogging the piston down with excess oil.

Going from 32:1 to 50:1 though would lean out your oil mixture. There is potential is that you could under-lubricate and engine that way, but since your engine originally calls for a 50:1 mix so you should not have any problem there. The harder and hotter you are running your engine, the more oil you want because you need to replenish oil that is being burned off.

For instance, in Kart racing, they are running at about 16000 - 20000 rpms at full throttle for a whole race, so they often mix between 16:1 to 32:1 to compensate for the high speed and heat. In moto trials, they are running very low rpms for only short bursts or idling, so they often will run between 80:1 to 100:1 so that they do not have excess oil building up in the cylinder at idle speeds.

(** Redbull660's thoughts - probably why chainsaws are in the middle of these two groups at 40-50:1 ie. chainsaws are doing less than karts, but more than moto trails. **)

The effect on the combustion going from 32:1 to 50:1 will not be very noticeable, you may see differences over time if you are tearing the engine down and inspecting the piston and cylinders, but the combustion itself will largely be unaffected by that change.
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Redbull660 -

sounds good. makes a lot of sense now. So the Stihl 661 runs at 13k-13.5k (max throttle) and max throttle is used for most cuts, but most cuts are
only running on avg. maybe 20-30 seconds long. Then back to idle. So based
on that what mix ratio would you think would likely work best? Curious to what you think.

But...thinking it might be interesting to both of us if I mix up some 32:1,
42:1 and 50:1. Time the cuts and take the jug temp ...see if there is a discernable difference?
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Belray -

That is not a bad plan. I think you will end up at the 42:1 ratio in the end, but by all means, test and figure out what works best for your machine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


continued...

 

[redbull660]

Redbull says -

Sir, well i did the test. I've attached a picture of the spreadsheet with the numbers.

- The stihl and belray 50:1 did the best time wise. I show *32.8 because I had a hangup during the cut.

- It appears that Belray gets to it's temp faster than stihl. Stihl 50:1 cut
1 cyl temp =248 vs 265 on belray 50:1. but the belray stays cooler on cut 2.
stihl 50:1 cut 2 - 285 vs 273 belray 50:1. Gotta like that!

- lot of guys are wondering why the heavier mix (42:1 and 32:1) didn't perform better...actually many were thinking the 32:1 would win on both time and heat and the exact opposite happened...it did the worst...by a lot on
time. Would you have an answer on that?

Does it have to do with the compression of the stock saw at approx 170psi vs what many of them have are "ported" saws running 215 psi?

Respectfully,

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Belray says -

As you know I am no expert on saws, but since the data collection was done so well, I think I have a pretty clear picture. When you are adding more oil to the mixture you are providing more oil to form the fluid film in the cylinder. That film does offer some resistance to the movement of the piston and could slow it down some. Remember, the main goal of the lubricant is to protect before anything else. It is protecting the surface but it will also impede the movement slightly because of its physical nature.

Now, when you are talking about rpms in the low thousands of larger engines, the difference will be small, but when you start reaching the high rpms of a wide open throttle in a small 2-stroke motor, the difference in engine speed can be more noticeable. Therefore, the saw is spinning just slightly slower and the cutting would take longer. This would also affect the temperature because as the engine is spinning slower, the fuel/oil mix is entering at a slower rate so there is less fuel and oil entering into the cylinder to cool the piston.

Based on your data, I think that is an accurate assessment of what is occurring and why the numbers are coming out the way they are. It looks to me that the 42:1 mix is a safe bet based on the temperatures. From cut 1 to cut 2 it had the smallest temperature gap meaning that amount of oil is keeping the cylinder the steadiest temperature and not getting too hot over time. The other oil and mixtures have larger temperature gaps so you don't have as good of an equilibrium as you are seeing with the 42:1 in terms of friction and cooling.

I honestly couldn't tell you what the compression difference between the saws would do, but as long as you test the same compression saw, the differences you recorded tell you a lot.

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Redbull says -

Well that makes a lot of sense. thank you!

The particular saw tested has an autotune setup which checks several criteria approx 33 times a second. Several guys think that the saw wasn't automatically adjusting to the new mixes. Based on what you said I'm thinking this is now unlikely. Their position is that I may need to perform a "reset" process to reset the computer for each mix. This seems highly unlikely, given the range of variables this computer/autotune has to be set for for the end user. Temperature, quality of gas, elevation, quality of air and so on.

So obviously I am of the opinion that it seems highly unlikely that a reset would need to be performed. BUT I will ask anyway... are you aware of any common practice where such a "reset" would be performed given these changes of oil/gas mixture? (50:1 down to 32:!) ?

Next question - would it be fair to say that a higher compression would displace or shall we say spread out/thin out the oil film vs lower compression? Thus you would want a heavier mix of oil closer to 32:1 for a higher compression motor?


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Belray says -

I honestly don't know about the computer resets so I wouldn't want to give you the wrong information regarding that.

For the most part, higher compression isn’t going to physically affect the oil film much. That is not to say that compression doesn't have any affect on the oil, but you won't notice a difference in the oil's physical behavior with that compression change. With any compression, bulk oil gets pushed to the sides and down along the piston skirt, but the films will remain in tact because oil is not a very compressible liquid.

The oil films are affected much more strongly by the pressures between the piston and the cylinder than it is by the combustion compression.

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Redbull says -

reset - no problem at all. It would just be speculation anyway. Unless it was a generally accepted/known/performed practice.

- would it be fair to say a higher quality oil like belray h1r at 50:1 vs a lower quality oil at 50:1 would provide a better film?

- What are some of the reasons that Belray would recommend going from say a
42:1 mix to a 32:1 mix?

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Belray says -

Yes in general you can use less of a high quality oil than you would of a low quality oil, and the oil film it provides is better than the Stihl oil for sure.

The only reason to go from a leaner ratio to a richer oil mix would be if the engine is under lubricated and not getting enough oil. When I mentioned in my previous email about reaching that equilibrium, that is what you want in any 2-stroke engine is to find the equilibrium mix ratio. This provides a steady temperature without spikes, enough oil to lubricate but not too much oil that will bog the engine down and reduce the power. If you find there isn’t a good film or overheating of the surfaces, you may want to increase to a 32:1.

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Redbull says -

So to find equilibrium, would you say the main thing to actually look for wouldn't necessarily be speed. But instead, steady temperature readings?

Or maybe a combo of both? If both, then, just eyeballing it, I would guess
somewhere in the middle of 42 and 50 for this particular saw, probably 45:1.

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Belray says -

Yes maybe 45:1. If you are opening up the case and pulling the pistons periodically, that is a good source of information too. The temperature is good, the speed is relevant too. If you look at the piston and can see that there aren't any deposits and there is a film of oil on all the moving parts, then you have found or are at least adequately close to your equilibrium point with the oil.

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Redbull says -

So my piston head after running Stihl now for about 20 tanks has some nice black baked on finish...any chance running belray will clear that up?
regardless I'll still use it and be good with it. I'm just hopeful it'll clear up.

So combo of speed, steady temps, and how the parts look?


..and would this be a correct statement? Most oils don't have any effect on octane. Besides most of the oil drops out of suspension as soon as the fuel air mixture enters the crankcase.
So in reality what oil is in the combustion chamber is coating the piston, head, cylinder walls, etc and not part of the charge being ignited.

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Belray says -

Yes you should see those black deposits clear up over time. It's hard to say how quickly, but the H1-R should definitely begin cleaning it up.

Yes that combination will tell you just about all you need to know in order to make the correct mix ratio choice.

Yes that statement is very accurate. Typical oils will not affect combustion for those reasons. It does burn, but not explosively like gasoline to attribute to octane rating.

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continued...

 

[redbull660]

Redbull says -

excellent!

so does belray h1r affect combustion? if so, how? you said "typical oils

will not"...belray isn't typical !

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Belray says -

It is typical in that way haha. You'll remember in a previous email I went in to how the H1-R affects the different octane rating measurements. It only affects the octane by a fraction of 1/5 of 1 octane, so it is fairly negligible of an affect on the combustion process.

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Redbull says -

haha well that's good!

I know one gentlemen wanted me to ask... Ok so he has a regular carb that requires screw driver adjustment H, L, Idle. According to him, and I quote "H1R does seem to burn clean, but it changes the combustion properties of the fuel mix, you have to open up the jets quite a bit to compensate.....

Why does H1R require more fuel than most other 2T oils? The only other oils that leaned out the mixture that much, had some castor oil in it. Is it the solvent in the oil or the oil itself? "

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belray says -

That is a common occurrence when using H1-R and well understood. Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well.

-------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

stihl ultra syn 40:1 92 eth free after 13 tanks.

----------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

That is some serious buildup on the piston. It may take longer than I originally thought for the H1-R to clear it up, but you should definitely see a difference going forward.

----------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

that was my friend's piston. I was running 45:1 and mine looks a little better, however I do not have a picture. You can actually gently scrape away some of the black stuff on mine. ...would that indicate he was running to rich of a mix and burning oil? And I'm guessing this wouldn't happen with belray...just proves how much stihl sucks...which makese sense they are

a high production firm not geared around racing. But, the question

remains, was the 40:1 mix so rich and...well. I shouldn't speculate what is going on, because I'm hoping you'll tell me! haha

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

The amount of oil can affect it, but the oil's detergency is the biggest contributor to whether there are deposits or not. I would assume that the Stihl oil is probably the base of just what the engine needs to run and nothing more. H1-R uses very clean burning ester base stocks which also contribute to detergency and also has detergency additives on top of that to boost the cleanliness of the oil.

cont...

 

[redbull660]

Redbull says -

what would happen and what would be your view on mixing with...

87 octane ethanol free
vs
91 or 92 octane ethanol free?

--------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

Well, for the most part, higher octane fuels are really only a benefit for engines that have knocking and pinging issues with detonation. As long as the motor can run on 87 without issues, I always stick to 87. The most likely thing to happen is that more money will be spent and little or no benefit will be gained.

Ethanol free is definitely the way to go though.

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Redbull says -

sounds like a new test to try! lol 87 vs 92 would the mix change?
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray says -

No, I would keep the oil ratio the same.

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Redbull says -

So in general what assumtions can one make by looking at the viscosity numbers? (at 40c and 100c)

for example, amsoil: - 40c 71 and 100c 11.1 -vs- belray h1r: 40c - 121 100c 12.4

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Belray says -

The difference in viscosity is not such an important issue in 2-strokes as it is in 4-strokes, although there are some considerations to make. The 100°C viscosity is your closest reference point to operating temperatures although, as you know, cylinders do get much hotter. That is the viscosity that is important for the running of the motor. The 40°C viscosity is really only important for oil delivery in an injection system because the oil is on its own before being injected. In a premix application, once you mix it with gasoline, the differences are practically zero until the gasoline is burned and the oil is on its own again.

Viscosity is a factor in film strength, so higher viscosity oils have an inherent film strength advantage which can translate to protection, but honestly, 11.1 to 12.4 isn't a large enough gap that I would expect to see a big difference in film strength due to the viscosity. I would expect a better film strength over the Amsoil Saber because they tend to use PAO base fluids and our H1-R uses all ester oils which have a better film strength.

Viscosity is one of the trickier properties of oil because it is hands down the most important thing to look for in any 4-stroke application, but it is so standardized for 4-strokes that everyone's oils are pretty much the same viscosity as long as it is the same grade. In 2-strokes, there are no standardized viscosities so companies can have very different products based on formulating experience. For instance, our MC-1 2T oil is a much thicker oil than our H1-R is, and our SI-7 and SL-2 oils are thinner to accommodate injector systems. We find that the H1-R and its ester ingredients have a good blend at the 12 cSt range so that is where we keep it.

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Redbull says -

Very interesting. Thank you.

I guess at this point it is seeming to me that one has two options...

(please correct me if I am wrong about this)

option 1 - you can run a thicker oil like belray h1r at 42:1 (42 seems to be close to number at least in my saw)

option 2 - you could run a thinner oil like maxima k2, yamalube 2r , lucus... at 32:1

So my current theory is that you might have close to the same temps, steadiness, and times. Maybe? maybe not?

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Belray says -

The viscosity is just one part of the puzzle, with the additives and type of oil being the other parts that determine the safe mix ratio for each. Usually less viscous oil needs to be at a richer ratio to counteract the weaker film strength, but it’s not always the case. You can make generalizations and it may be true for a majority of the time, but there will always be some outliers that don’t fit the curve. Yes, based on your data, the H1-R is safe at 42:1 and possibly even leaner, but you would have to test each and every oil to know its own safe running point.

Yes, you are likely to see very similar performance from a lot of oils, that’s why everyone has their favorite oil and swears it’s the best. H1-R is formulated very well, and I know this because I am the person who formulated it. It is designed to provide the best protection possible using the best base fluid we’ve ever tested for 2-strokes. When it comes to other brands, some I know how they behave, but a lot of them I can only speculate.

 

[redbull660]

Redbull says -

So let's say hypothetically the performance (times & temps) are all pretty equal between H1R and the others out there. (obviously it's not or stihl would have performed better on the temp readings in my test) But your saying

So what sets them apart then is the protection factor? So what makes H1R better than the others as far as protection?

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Belray says -

The biggest difference between H1-R and the competitors is the base fluid used. It is, as advertised, a 100% full synthetic ester. Which means there are no fillers or carrier fluids other than the ester which, as well as carrying the additives, is very functional itself. Even among other ester based fluids, some of them only contain a portion of esters, and there are still many various types of esters even within the field of esters! The types of ester that we use, which unfortunately are proprietary, are extremely good at preventing wear, burn remarkably clean even compared to other esters and have great detergency for removing any buildup.

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Redbull says -

I want to ask this question again... "H1R does seem to burn clean, but it changes the combustion properties of the fuel mix, you have to open up the jets quite a bit to compensate.....

Why does H1R require more fuel than most other 2T oils?

Your first answer was -
"Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

The solvent answer to why the H1-R typically uses more fuel has just always been accepted by us because it makes the most logical sense. Perhaps there is another and better answer to the question, but so far, we haven't come up with anything that fits otherwise.

I’d be interested to hear someone else’s take on it, but I would be incredibly surprised if it was due to anything regarding the flash point of the oil. Remember, there is only a thin film of oil in the cylinder which makes for a very small total volume. To measure flash point we take about 1 standard cup of oil to get enough vapor to cause it to combust according to the standard method. So the oil vapors that combust, are probably on the scale of micrograms. Maybe it has a much bigger effect than we’ve thought, but to me it seems far fetched. The high content of highly combustible solvents common in a lot of other oils makes much more sense to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

On the message board we are having a discussion about oils. Out of this list - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

We are primarily looking at R50, H1R, 800, 927, K2, and yamalube 2R. From what I can find these are the make ups of those oils...

Klotz R50 - No info, The odd thing is they call for a pour point of -10F ?

Motul 800 - Pure Ester, No Solvent.

Belray H1R - Pure Ester, No Solvent.

Maxima 927 - Castor and ester , No solvent.

Maxima K2 - Ester, polybutene polymer and solvent, 10% solvent

Yamalube 2R - Petroleum Oil. ~20% Solvent.


So out of that list the only pure ester, no solvents are 800 and H1R ?
Do you have any info on R50?
Do any of the oils on that link contain ester?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

Yes on 800 and H1R.

I do not see any available public data, giving that information on R50.

Some of them do contain esters but none of them are full ester (except H1R & 800) without solvent or some mix of petroleum oil.

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Redbull says -

You said earlier that - "Ester, burns very cleanly...residue left behind after burning this type of fluid is almost negligible. Petroleum and some other types of synthetic oils will leave carbon deposits and ash when burned."

I see some of these have Ester and other bases in them...

-------------------------------------------------------------
Belray -

not every ester burns super clean. There are certainly ones that may leave some residues, but for the most part they are cleaner than petroleum, PAO synthetics and polybutene polymers.

---------------------------------------
Redbull says -

IIRC someone said the other type of oil that required opening of the jets had castor in it. Is caster another type of synthetic? Why would it require opening of the jets? Is it thicker? So does H1R have castor in it?

--------------------------------------------------
Belray -

Castor oil is a plant based bio sourced oil. I really don’t know much about it other than that it has a few qualities, but a lot of bad qualities. The bad ones include poor solubility, high resin content, and bad low temperature properties.

H1R is pure ester. No solvents. It does not have any castor in it.

---------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

why does h1r have a great film strength if the viscosity 100c is only 12.4 ?

------------------------------------
Belray -

The type of ester that is used has a very high polarity so it has a strong bond to metal surfaces, and because of its high stability, it remains intact in high pressure contact points.

----------------------------------

Redbull says -

Sir,

is there a lowest temp stat that one would consider if you were using at say -30F below? yeah I know...but the truth is I have done cutting at those temps.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray -

Yes we have that data for our 2-stroke oils. The H1-R experiences some additive dropout at -42°C (-44°F), but none was seen before that point during the cooldown range. Now, it may still be usable past that temperature as it wasn’t the entire bulk of oil that separated, but since some additives dropped out, we would not suggest running it at that temperature or lower because of the possible risk.

 

[redbull660]

Started breaking in my 2nd 661R - 2 tanks through it, both running belray H1R 45:1.

I know it's only two tanks and the pic isn't that good. (I tried taking about 15 pics and this is the best one I got). But the top of the piston has a light grey/brown tint to it, I can still see the engravings on the top of the piston clearly. No build up at all! My understanding is this is ideal?

Now Stihl ultra on the other hand would already have a black coating. I've broken in 4 660's a 661 and 461 in the last yr so with ultra, so im pretty confident in this statement.

spark plug..

 

[redbull660]

test results with 361 + 20" tsumura + 4 new stihl RS chains

Did 4 different logs. Cut 1 was just a couple of small cuts to make sure the saw was warmed up. Cut 2 was a larger nice pice of oak. Cut 3 I put load on the saw. Cut 4 was just a larger willow...soft. Took temp measurements after each cut. Pic of spread sheet below - (times and temps)

50:1 - This was my start point. Felt so so running. Not great. But not horrible.

45:1 felt great! - minor adjustment from the 50:1 tune.

40:1 felt pretty good - minor adjustment from 45:1 tune.

32:1 was like someone flipped a switch on the saw. Night and day compared to 40:1 tune. Saw did not like it at all. idle jumped quite a bit as did the top end. Had to really fatten things out from the 40:1 tune to get it back at 2800ish and under 14k. And even then it felt weird running. Felt like it was really running hard. I would not run this saw at 32:1 H1R again...ever.

Would highly advise watching the vids as my numbers won't tell the whole story. And I'm interested in getting thoughts/opinions.

50:1 Tune



50:1 cuts and temps




45:1 tune - tune is showing what the saw does by just changing the gas (yes I ran the saw for a bit to get the new mix in the system)



45:1 cuts and temps




40:1 tune - tune is showing what the saw does by just changing the gas (yes I ran the saw for a bit to get the new mix in the system)




40:1 cuts and temps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvf_e-l1GV0


32:1 Tune - tune is showing what the saw does by just changing the gas (yes I ran the saw for a bit to get the new mix in the system...could definitely tell a difference right away with the 32:1...saw just started racing bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iMpBD0ymjc


32:1 cuts and temps -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsHhGshfhPc

 

[redbull660]

MS660 results

32:1 in the 660 did not cause the drastic change from 40:1 to 32:1 in the tune like the 361. Saw seemed fine. 50:1 tried earlier felt to lean I guess. So I didn't do it.

40:1 seems to be the sweet spot for the 660 ...at least mine...a stock saw but with dp muff mod.

 

[drf255]

Great writeup and thread. Thanks for doing this.

Any info at all on Royal Purple Synthetic?

 

[redbull660]

some more emails to belray...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

Morning Sir. couple more...


Was H1R reformulated recently?


I noticed on the H1R MSDS that it reads "this product considered not hazardous" So what exactly does that mean? Would it mean that, I would breathing less carcinogenic/toxic air when running my saw?

**note - for AS post. "this produce considered not hazardous" ...this was the ONLY oil in the list that had no hazardous chemicals in the oil. List - http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oil-test-32-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

Anyway I thought that was impressive...interesting.

So I've evaluated different mix ratios of H1R as far as speed/time, temps and consistency in temps. But what actual signs ...what should I be seeing? What should the top of the piston look like? The exhaust port? The inside of the muffler? Outside the muffler exit port? Side of the piston and rings?

Thank you.
---------------------------------------------

Belray response -

Yes H1-R did have an upgrade about 4 years ago. When I did it we made sure that all of the properties either remained the same or were improved. It has been around since at least the 90’s, I don’t even know the original launch date of it. When a product is around this long it is inevitable that some of the raw materials may be discontinued or just not be available for some reason so reformulations are a necessary part of it, and it really is a good thing because it means we get the chance to update things and improve on aspects that we maybe had to settle on in the past. Every product is different and nothing is perfect, so there is always room for improvement! That’s my motto anyway.


The health statement means that none of the formula ingredients cause things like cancer or other acute or chronic health problems. That does only apply to the product as is though. Once it is burned, its health implications can change, but to start out with safe chemicals, you are certainly more likely to end up with safer fumes. That being said I would not recommend hooking up a snorkel to the exhaust haha.


The piston should either have a very thin layer of oil on it or just look clean. You may get a little bit of graying, but as long as it doesn’t build up then you are in good shape. Pitting of any of the surfaces would also be an indication of a problem. The exhaust port you just want to make sure that the edges aren’t wearing. The inside of the muffler, typically if the muffler has any packing it is not uncommon for the packing to be slightly damp with oil. If it isn’t packed, the muffler usually won’t have oil in it because of the heat, but the surface should be pretty clean. The thing to look out for is rust in the muffler. On the exit port to the muffler, its rust again, if there is rust there, you may want to check further to make sure it isn’t any deeper. The sides of the piston, the rings and the cylinder wall should not have obvious localized wear marks (ie, scoring). If you see obvious lines and especially if you can feel them, then you are getting some serious wear and heading toward trouble. There is a difference between scuffing and scoring though. Scuff marks are usually wider parallel lines and light scuffing can be fairly normal and usually does not escalate. The ring’s outer surface should be smooth without any burs or jagged edges. You may get darkening of the piston skirt surfaces that look almost like they are burnt, but that is not necessarily a problem. As long as there is no buildup it should be ok. A thin layer of oil is usually a good sign though in that you are definitely protecting the surfaces. Excessive oil should be obvious and the solution, as you know, is simple.


Another thing I just want to emphasize again is that I do not know enough about saws to be an “expert” and I don’t pretend to be one. All of that is based off my experience with 2-strokes in general, so some of it may be off base. If something about what I say seems fishy, please feel free to question it.

 

[7sleeper]

Thanks for the work!!! The other thread was already becoming difficult to follow sometimes!

7

 

[redbull660]

more emails to belray. (I ask a lot of questions lol )

Redbull says -

Sir,

So h1r is approx 90% esters and 10% additives? What do the additives do or what is their purpose?


I see many of these oils have solvents in them.

- Do the solvents have any adverse effects on a chainsaw?
- Do they have any benefits to a chainsaw?
- Do solvents burn as well as gasoline?
- Do solvents produce more or less power than gasoline?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray says -

The additives are a mixture of antioxidants, anti-corrosives, anti-wear, and detergents.

- Solvents won’t usually have an adverse effect except for possibly leaving more deposit than an oil depending on the oil.

- The only benefit is to help the gasoline initially mix into the fuel for a chain saw

- Solvents do not typically burn nearly as well as gasoline

- They will typically produce less power than gasoline

By the way, solvents should always be listed under the MSDSs hazardous category although they can be included in the percentage of petroleum oils so it might not be obvious. That being said, not all companies file their MSDSs correctly/legally so sometimes they are no help.



Here is an indication of how clean H1-R burns by the way. Many oils use PIB as an anti-scuff additive, but another common and widely counted on function of it, is a smoke suppressant. H1-R does not contain any PIB and we still pass the smoke limits set by the 2-stroke performance specifications.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

Are there any conditions in which H1R separates from the gas?
Would a 2 cycle oil with solvents keep the gas oil mix in suspension better?
Or does it even matter...ie. regardless you should always give the mix a good shake before using?


Why doesn't Belray specify that H1R is ok for chainsaws, or other small two stroke engines?
Obviously it is, but just curious why you guys don't...seems you could get more business?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Belray says -

H1-R will only separate from gas at extremely low temperatures. I’ve brought it down to under -60°C(-76°F) and still only had that initial additive drop out I mentioned at -42°C so the whole oil won’t drop out in any conditions on earth. Solvents only help with the initial mixing. Once it is in gasoline, the gas itself is a more powerful solvent than anything in the formula usually so it kind of supersedes the original solvent. I would always suggest giving the gas a good shake, just for extra insurance. You never know when you maybe thought you shook it and actually forgot. At least I know my memory is bad enough to mess that up!


Once the H1-R is mixed though it is all good. I’ve cooled a gas mix of H1-R below -50°C at 32:1 then reheated and cooled repeatedly. Once it was reheated that dropped out additive mixed right back in. Then I let it sit for over a year without any agitation and there was absolutely no separation. The gas actually started evaporating because the seal was not perfect. I would guess my final ratio was probably more like 10:1 after some of the gas had evaporated. The richer your oil mixture is, the closer to your saturation point and less soluble the oil is. So all that time and 10:1 speaks pretty well to the ability of H1-R to remain mixed in the gas.


I made the suggestion to market H1-R to power tools a few years back. I actually put a proposal out there to make a specific oil for tools, but that got rejected by the higher ups. The reason we don’t market the H1-R to power tools though is because they are afraid that if motorcycle riders and racers see that the same oil we recommend for their high end racing machines is the same oil we recommend for some guys weed eater, they might get turned off to it.

 

[redbull660]

this 661 was broken in and run on h1r. 42:1 This is approx 9-10 tanks.

exhaust port - slight brownish but still transparent discoloration

top of piston - very very thin layer...hard to see exactly. There is a difference where the transfers are

my only concern is the area just above the top ring (between piston top and top ring) - some brown.

 

[DexterDay]

Is that one of your other 661's? Does it have muff mod yet? Or stock outlet size?

 

[Flatie]

Did the most epic oil thread in AS history get deleted?[emoji3]

Dont go there im upset!

 

[redbull660]

please do not post on this thread. I'm in the middle of email conversations with lucas, motul, and klotz. I will post them all up here when im done. I'm trying to keep all this data close together. please delete your posts. thx.

 

[Marshy]

please do not post on this thread. I'm in the middle of email conversations with lucas, motul, and klotz. I will post them all up here when im done. I'm trying to keep all this data close together. please delete your posts. thx.

Keep in mind this is an open forum and if you wanted to keep unwanted post out you should have waited to publish the thread. They are not obligate to delete their posts but you can ask.

 

[bwalker]

H1R piston.